My Friend with The Special Effects shop got a Carbide Replaceable Tip Cutoff tool and a pack of ten tips via Amazon yesterday so he 'covered' the tooling problem for me.
Now to wait for Time Available on his lathe again.
Chev. William
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My Friend with The Special Effects shop got a Carbide Replaceable Tip Cutoff tool and a pack of ten tips via Amazon yesterday so he 'covered' the tooling problem for me.
Now to wait for Time Available on his lathe again.
Chev. William
This morning I had some errands I needed to run, and the time to get them done, so I loaded the car up, and tossed the contender in .22 LB in the trunk as well.
After going to the post office, and bringing some gas to my mother to keep the generator going while she waits for power to be restored after the hurricane last week, I set up on the 50 yard range, but I forgot to bring my rest, so I was elbow resting on the bench.
I only had enough ammo loaded up to shoot 8 groups, but I was pretty pleased that including fliers, I still didn't have a group over 3/4"CTC at 50 yards.
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/8targets.JPG
They're all the same load, which has proven to be pretty good. I'll work on other loads in the not too distant future, but consistency is a big part of what I want from the gun and cartridge, so the largest groups it shoots are as important to me as the smallest.
Sunday Afternoon I got some time on my friends Shop Lathe ad Tried out the Carbide tip Cutoff Tool on my Drill Blank material beginning mandrel with very disappointing results; Carbide doesn't seem to cut these 'M2' Drill Blanks well at all. All I got for three inserts was a grove about 1/16" deep on the .375" diameter blank. First Insert did not even 'polish the Blank before shattering. The second insert last e a little better, actually 'polishing the Surface before Shattering. The third insert actually did cut very slowly and survived the attempt without damage; but as I said it only very slowly cut to .062 inch depth before i gave up the attempt as I had to return home.
chev. William
@Chev William
I don't know the kind of precision you need on your parting , however, I use a Dremel type tool with a little diamond wheel. I cut carbide with them.
Attachment 229264 Attachment 229265
How? The .25ACP starts out .278" diameter by .615" long maximum dimensions.
The .22 Hornet and .223 Are Bottleneck cartridges that are both longer and larger in diameter.
In fact, I have Swaged Down .22 Hornet to .276"-.278" diameter for use as 'parent' to my .25 Cal Mildcats.
Chev. William
I've been away from Cast Boolits for quite a while; no real reason, I think I just got bored. Anyway on with the comment:
I have a Stevens .44 shot that I bought with the express intent to rebarrel it to .32 S&W Long which hasn't happened yet, (boredom is insidious). I like the idea of this Ladybug cartridge for it since one of the reasons for procrastination is the fact that I will have to make a new extractor for whatever cartridge I go with, unless I make it a .38 WCF which is just a bit bigger than I want for a small game/ plinking rifle.
I also have a tiny little Craftsman lathe that I need to learn how to operate.
Robert
has anybody talked to ch4d to see what a case forming die set would cost. i really like what you have done with this cartridge.
Robert,
A few Questions:
1. What Model/type is your Stevens .44 Shot Rifle?
2. Is it one which is designed for "take down", or use of Interchangeable Barrels?
If it is a "Take Down" type, the change is much easier.
3. What size/model/material handling dimensions is your "tiny little Craftsman lathe?
The material Handling dimensions of the Lathe will dictate what you can actually turn/machine using it without going to extreme custom tool extension/ modifications.
chev. William
As to Myself Alone, I have not yet contacted CH4D, or any other Die Makers for a Full set of forming dies for any of my projects. I am Retired on what is increasingly limited Retirement Annuity payments form Social Security, Military Retirement, and VA Disability sources. My Taxes, Fuel, Food, and Utility charges and Fees keep outpacing any 'cost of living' increases I have received to date. So the 'left over funds' keep shrinking.
Chev. William
i have interest in both the ladybug and yours chev i just dont want too make my own dies sets if ch4d could make them it might bring more interest to these cartridges.
Many small lathes have the capability of turning barrels. The limiting factor is the through hole in the chuck and spindle. I have a Harbor Freight 7x10" lathe with a 5/8 through hole. It is possible to ream this hole to 7/8 on this model, I just haven't done it yet.
CH4D does advertise that they will make custom die sets upon special order; so You could ask for a Price Quote form them for appropriate forming die sets.
I believe Lee Will also; but prefer a Production run size order unless it is only a modification to a normal production die, such as "opening" their .25ACP Carbide Sizing die to a larger Sizing diameter (I believe they also will do that on other calibers).
Lee did make me a Long body, none crimping Seating die for my Long .25 Caliber Wildcats as a single custom order die made from a 'Standard' Seating/crimping die body with the crimp 'step' machined out.
Chev. William
I agree.
I have read, and Marveled at, modelers who have made 3/4" and 1" to the foot scale Live steam Locomotives using an EMCO "Unimat" Lathe and A Bunch of Custom home built tooling, jigs and holding fixtures to accomplish it, and one did it in a 'Closet' space in his home in Japan!
Chev. William
A 6x18 inch lathe is definitely a 'small' lathe size but not 'tiny' as both the 'Unimat' (at 3x12") is small and Watchmaker lathes, at around 1-1/2x6", would be more likely 'tiny'.
Note that if you can remove the tail-stock and mount a Full Steady Rest fitted with three roller tipped material guides, you could hold a Blank barrel in the Head-stock chuck and let the extra length extend past the tail end of your lathe, turning one end first then reversing the blank and turning the other end.
This would leave two 'unturned stub ends' to be removed and the Finish Work to be done using hand tools and a barrel vice setup.
By Finish Work, I am referring to reaming the chamber and crowning the muzzle, among other things.
If you plan it correctly, you could make it an 'Insert Barrel Adapter' longer than your shot barrel and thread the Muzzle end for a clamping sleeve nut to hold it in your shot barrel without damage, perhaps using a cone faced Brass washer between nut and shot barrel muzzle to protect the Barrel Crown and Bore from being damaged in tightening the nut.
Chev. William
John Taylor of Taylor Machine in WA now has my Ruger MKII pistol Receiver, my roughly 8 inch long LW 25ACP/6,35 Browning Barrel Blank Remanent, my .25ACP WS chamber Reamer (straight cylinder Body of .2795" diameter), an da Sample "Takeoff" MKI tapered Ruger barrel along with my MKII Bolt assembly.
He is going to machine the Blank into a roughly 8" tapered Barrel to fit the Ruger Receiver; and also give me an estimate on converting the Bolt from RF to CF.
So, my MKII Ruger Standard Auto Pistol is going to be a .25ACP Pistol eventually.
I will need to obtain and Cut up some Beretta .25ACP magazines to make into magazines to fit the Ruger Handle and have the correct feed lips geometry to work with the Converted Bolt and receiver.
It looks like Beretta 950 mags have a base cover tha tis too large for the Ruger handle bottom but might work other wise.
There is a Beretta 'Bobcat' .25ACP mag that seems to have a smaller base cover that I may try also.
It will take at least two Beretta 8-round mags to make one long enough to fit the Ruger Auto properly.
Then there is the Form Block to make for forming the feed lips, and the Weld jig pieces to hold the bodies in alignment while welding them together again.
The Weld jig will need to be made from Copper bar so that the inside weld bead is minimized and won't stick to the Copper bar.
Perhaps a three layer Sandwich to ease removal?
NOTE: the Bolts seem to be interchangeable between MKI, MKII, MKIII, and MKIV if you ignore the added 'features' of the later models. All are 3/4" OD minus clearance; as they slide easily in a 3/4" Drill Bushing.
I think I can use aftermarket recoil spring assemblies with inter changeable springs as part of the Tuning to get proper functioning of the Completed Pistol but if needed I could add Tungsten Weight 'Washers' to the back of the bolt to add Reciprocating Mass to it. This will require drill and tap of the Bolt rear face.
Chev. William
John Taylor emailed me with a Progress Report:
- My Bolt is completed as A CF conversion.
- He made a new CF Firing Pin from Pre-hardened Spring Steel.
- My .25ACP Barrel is machined.
- he has assembled my .25ACP barrel-Ruger Receiver-CF bolt assembly onto his Grip frame and Test fired them!
This is Very Good News for my Thanksgiving Holiday!
Best Regards to All on this Thanksgiving 2018 Holiday!!!
Chev. William
I received Back my converted Bolt with Receiver and fitted .25ACP 8-1/8" barrel along with my custom cylindrical .2794" diameter body Finish Chamber Reamer and my two 4-2/4" 'Takeoff' barrels Monday.
Sadly, I learned from my Local Gun Shop and gunsmith that Current California Laws And Regulations define an Assembled Semi-Auto Pistol with a threaded Muzzle as an "Assault Weapon" subject to FELONY charges; so I intend to machine off the muzzle threads BEFORE assembling the pistol.
I hope to get time on my friend's lathe this weekend if our schedules allow. My friend is currently working on a Series show production and has been getting 12 plus hour 'days' so far.
Chev. William
Finally, Photos:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psfax2euw1.jpg
The Modified Bolt Face. Note the enlarged Rim rebate to fit the .25ACP rim and the Centered round firing pin tip.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psjmpo81nu.jpg
The top view of the Bolt with recoil assembly removed to show the new firing pin in its channel.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psysgn9g92.jpg
Left side of Modified MKII pistol with its new ~8" Barrel.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psn4jgp6ay.jpg
Right side of Modified MKII pistol wiht its ~8" long Barrel.
These Photos were taken by my Friend with a Camera that has a "Macro" Photo Capability.
Chev. William
@Chev William
Wow is that cool!
Can you make a video of you firing it? Would love to see those .25 cases fly out of that thing.
I do not know if my Local Commercial Ranges will allow taking Videos/Photos at their active firing lines.
Chev. William
Thursday, December 27th, my Special Effects Friend and I took a "Range Day" for some Testing an Fun and Relaxation.
I took both my .25ACP conversion Ruger MKII Auto Pistol and my .22LR Pre-mark Ruger auto Pistol along to compare.
Both were fired as 'Single Shot' without magazines inserted.
- The .25ACP and the .22LR seemed to eject to the same area and the bolts appeared to 'recoil' about the same.
- The Muzzle rise was about the same for both pistols.
- Shooting 'Standing Off Hand' both seemed to 'pattern' about the same at 50 yards, they both are more accurate than I am, it seems.
Initially At 7 yards, the .25ACP sights, using a 6 O'clock sight picture, had POI above and left of POA. 3 clicks of Windage adjustment brought POI over to above POA. I found that the Sight had an "Allen" socket head and I did not have a suitable tool with me to adjust elevation. That afternoon i took the Pistol to my gunsmith and he looked through his 'Spare Parts box' and found a slot head screw to exchange.
Next time out to the range, I will adjust elevation to bring POI and POA together.
Overall, I am Very Pleased with this conversion to date.
So far I have about $862 total invested in it, including purchase cost and the Conversion work.
I still need to make .25ACP magazines to feed it.
Chev. William
Thanks for sharing your photos and info on a very interesting little cartridge. Appreciate the time and effort you put into this project.
bob
Chuckling,
I guess necking the "Ladybug" down to .172", or .177", is theoretically possible; but I wonder why not neck the .25ACP case down to .177" like others have done in the Past, making a bottle necked Cartridge?
Or did you mean to make a Straight wall Center Fire .177 cartridge, which, if I have the correct dimensions, would be about .197 body diameter. This would leave about .011" wall to the Primer pocket, so it would need to remain a Rimmed design.
Chev. William
Lest anyone worry, I have a few more tricks up my sleeve with the ladybug. I hope to be posting a few more projects I've been working on for a while.
Any progress on the M67? That should be really cool! The K frame makes me think a M53 shooter grade needs to join my heard:bigsmyl2:
I have read this thread with intense fascination. This is my first post. I am a long time reader of the forum but enjoyed it so much I had to join and thank everybody for such an interesting subject. Special thanks go out to No Zombies and Chev William. Both of you are very technically minded way beyond what I can grasp at times. I know you both referred to Col. Askins and his .22 centrefire and how he won many competitions prior to a rule change using modified .22 velodog cases. I know of a very old British rook cartridge called .220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.) and wondered how similar they were. I know the bigger 29/230 Morris cartridge can be made from .22 hornet but is bottlenecked.
Thanks for joining in!
I've seen references to the .220 rook cartridge, but I've never seen one in the flesh.The only entry I can find that gives dimensions would seem to indicate it is pretty close dimensionally to the ladybug. The ladybug case is slightly shorter, and the .220 rook must have had slightly thinner brass. The rim diameter and thickness are the same, and the OAL is about the same as well.
I actually own a rook rifle that was originally chambered for the .220 rook cartridge, but was sadly relined to another caliber before I got it. I've been considering converting it back to a ladybug...
I have also never seen an example of the .220 Rook centrefire have only seen them referenced in Bill Flemmings book British sporting cartridges. I think the older rifles are great fun but I have been amazed at what you and Chev William have done. Your idea for the ladybug cartridge is fantastic, and sounds very versatile accurate and most importantly great fun. I look forward to seeing how your projects progress in 2019, a rook rifle converted back to its original caliber with a modern liner....Wow superb!. P.s. if you get a chance more photographs..... also amazed at how a small variance in lube or half a grain could alter point of impact.Thanks again, Rookandrabbit.
Welcome to the Forum!
I have not heard nor read anything about a ".220 Rook (.220 long centrefire.)" until you mentioned it in your 'first post'.
It sounds intriguing as a CF early alternative for the RF .22 Long or .22 Long Rifle cartridges.
January and February have been Financially 'tight' for me and it looks like March will be similar.
Plus the Wet, Cold, and Breezy weather Around here has prevented any outdoor Reloading Shop activity here.
NOE has again promised to schedule making my Ordered five cavity TL255-65-RF mold; so I will be holding back money to pay for this order again.
Chev. William
Thanks Chev William I look forward to your updates. The .220 centrefire Rook cartridge is a very early British cartridge made in England by Eley. I have only seen them in reference books and they are quite rare but the idea of a modern steel light weight quiet,accurate,single shot rifle in .22 Centrefire is fascinating. I am not as technically gifted as you and No Zombies,are but I have followed this thread and not being an engineer tried to keep up.Thanks again Rookandrabbit.
I forgot to add there is an entry showing this cartridge on cartridge collector.net I am sorry but don’t know how to paste a link! Thanks Rookandrabbit.
Is this the website you were referring to ?
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/22...ong-centrefire
Chev. William
Yes that’s the one and it looks to the photograph of the cartridge. I could not work out how to get the link. Thanks Chev William for sorting it. It is a very old and rare centrefire British Rook rifle cartridge
It does look a lot like the .22 ladybug.
I'll see if I can pull out my little rook rifle that was originally so chambered and get a photo before long.
March is rolling in Here with Rain and Cold Winds; so I was looking on Ebay and found two Marlin .22RF Microgroove barrels for sale cheap. Impulse Buys got them both!
One has arrived already! It appears to have conventional rifling instead of Microgroove rifling, with six wide grooves between Narrow Lands. It is 24" long with both sights installed still, shiny Bore with clean rifling, rough to feel but reasonable visually exterior. The Blue finish is worn and may have been sopt rusted at one time. It is marked ".22 Long Rifle only Smokeless Greased" on the left side beside the rear sight. I think this one will be trimmed and threaded to fit a 'Spud" for one of my Stevens 'Favorite' actions and the chamber reamed to fit either, or both, .22 Ladybug or .221 Askins CF cartridges (Both made from .25ACP cases).
It supposedly is from a Marlin A1 rifle. It Cost me $30.00!
the other one was $32+ due to shipping charges. the second one is due for delivery this afternoon.
Chev. William