The PAG and POE oils do this "dissolve" thing quite well, the PAOs not so well. All have some very high VIs compared to conventional oils, giving them a much wider operating range, particularly in very cold weather. Must do more testing.
Gear
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The PAG and POE oils do this "dissolve" thing quite well, the PAOs not so well. All have some very high VIs compared to conventional oils, giving them a much wider operating range, particularly in very cold weather. Must do more testing.
Gear
Would there be any benefit to taking a formulation like randyrat's TAC 1 and cutting the amount of carnauba used in half?
Thanks,
Tony
If you stop messing around with presses and posting riddles about same on the board you could get more testing done!
Is it possible to make a grease from a synthetic 2 cycle oil and add it to beeswax? Maybe use some stearate to thicken things up a bit and reduce the carrier level required.
POE oils are more hygroscopic than mineral oils, so exposing POE oils to air will result in their absorbing moisture more quickly than mineral oils. When POE oils are exposed to moisture and heat, they may react, forming acid that is harmful to the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher:
The PAG and POE oils do this "dissolve" thing quite well, the PAOs not so well.
MJ
Don't forget about the mould anodizing sidetrack and my other little project of building a 2700 SF, two-story house from scratch by myself :shock:
I made lithium grease with PAG oil, so did Bruce, and I've used these in beeswax lubes, it does reduce the beeswax content somewhat but not as much as with the Mobil 1 PAO grease.
When you make a gelled grease and dissolve it into melted wax at temperatures below the melt point of the gellant, the oil is still "locked" into the grease gel and doesn't interact with the wax the same way it does without the thickener. If you gell the wax and oil together, the gellant interacts with the wax as much as the oil, so not only does it take a lot more thickener for the same result, but it makes the wax more crumbly.
Gear
All things must be considered in testing. That may be why the two-stroke ester oils are blended with PAOs rather than being used straight. The PAO may counteract some of the negative residue effects of the ester.
This is why I commented previously about AC ester oils (pure esters) maybe not being suitable for lube oil by themselves because they're designed to work in a completly oxygen-free enviroment (inside a sealed, waterless, airless system).
Gear
I have a prediction for you, MJ: It will be rock-hard when it cools and when you squish it, it will quickly turn back into #2 grease. Lithium is funny that way. I messed around with this quite a bit trying to figure out VooDoo Lube.
Gear
Keep the Carnauba under 5% and add 15% lithium 12 complex to it and you'll have something, but I'm not sure with the conventional grease and that much carnauba that you'll be improving anything temp-wise that hasn't already been done.
Now that you have some powdered stearates, get your hands on a tube of Mobil SCH 220 #2 grease, add 12-15% thickener to it, heat it to the drop point and mix well, cool to 200F and add 25% beeswax. THAT will do pretty well. I don't think adding carnauba will help it, but might hurt it in the cold.
Something else to try is beeswax, Motul Ester oil like Eutectic uses, and some carnauba, or add some lithium thickener to the oil and heat to make grease before adding it to the waxes.
I know you're aiming for a multi-temp lube same as me, so I don't see the point fooling with stuff that gets gummy and slow around freezing. Freeze a glob of that grease you got and you'll see what I mean.
Gear
Gear,
Are those percentages by volume? I've only got a small vial of Li-12.
Ultimately, I think I'm going to settle for two lubes.
Do you think the Li Grease lube will be good from about 40 to 100F? I think what I'm about to do here is start with 357Max's LithiBee "main" ingredient and thicken with Li soap and a pinch of Carnauba instead of a much larger proportion of beeswax.
I thought your goal was to eliminate or at least limit the amount of waxes. 25% beeswax in the above formula appears to be headed in the opposite direction.
MJ
By weight. Make very small batches, weigh the ingredients on your reloading scale, use an index card to put the stuff on and zero the scale. A tablespoon of lube will lube a hundred or more rifle boolits.
Gear
OK, so if I like the stuff, I'm gonna want to fill the 450. Where do I get more Li soap?
MJ
BTW, Mobil SCH 220 #2 grease is just a lithium complex grease. Won't I be making my own (thickened) lithium complex grease by adding the Li-12 soap to an easy to obtain, $2 a tube, easier to melt (350F drop point) product?
you will.
you need to heat the LI stearate to about 450-f for it to melt into the grease and re-gel it.
that is the main reason i used both the #2 and the wheel bearing grease with the higher melt point [@ 500-f]
i added some mineral spirits to the mix so that when it started smoking i knew the temp was in the 350 range.
i have found the aluminum stearate a bit easier to work with as far as the heat involved.
Like Lamar told you, about 450F.
My reasoning behind the Mobil grease suggestion is that it's based on a Group IV full-synthetic polyalphaolefin oil with a good viscosity for boolit lube. This synthetic oil will outperform the oil in conventional grease by a wide margin in the heat and cold. I'm just saying of you're going to go this far, why not use better components? If you want a freakishly accurate, consistent, and easy-to-use lube in the 40-100 degree range, just make Felix lube and call it a day, I have found none better for that exact temperature range.
Gear
And many here would agree with you Gear...... But what about the other 60 degrees... the -20 to 40?
We have lube engineers, chemists, probably chemical engineers, even Felix (maybe he's all three) all watching this thread. I want to throw out some thoughts and questions for all to ponder...
When Felix says the 'cooking' process of the mineral oil and Castor oil polymerizes the oil mix; What actually happens chemically?
Castor oil may well be the Alox 350 of Felix Lube. I say this not in jest as I believe Castor oil will also jump right into the fire to do its job. I also think this is an attribute needed in an 'Extreme' Lube. But Castor oil Achilles' Heel is probably the cold.
S o o o, can Castor Oil be modified or VI additives be added to improve cold performance without loosing the qualities we want from it?
Is it the Castor oil alone or the 'polymerized' blend that would need to be modified for the cold?
Can Castor oil 'polymerize' with a PAO oil? How about a POE oil? If it could would that improve cold performance?
Any other thoughts how Felix Lube could be 'winterized' for cold weather? I think I could even settle for a summer and a winter mix if I had to.
Speaking of Achilles' Heel.... I may have found one with the ester 2 stroke oil.
I need to runs some more tests this week to confirm and I'll post my findings...
Eutectic
Let me guess the Achilles' Heel of the ester: It evaporates.
The reason the castor oil must be heated until it plasticizes somewhat is to keep it from leaking out of the finished lube, not to bind it to the mineral oil. There are "pour point" additives that can extend the cold temperature range of oils, but I don't know they work exactly.
Gear
the castor oil acts similar to carnuba in the cold.
it's also the real lubricant in felix lube.
i really think that the felix lube is a tradiional old school home made grease.
it was just part of the deal that the ingredients must be found just about anywhere.
and you have to hand it to felix for the job he done developing this lube.
i remember reading the development of the lube, the thread went along quite similar to this one.
the heating of the oil and the mineral oil allows the molecules to bind together into a homogenous alloy.
anyway i done a little experiment a little bit back.
i took a batch of my swaged jaxketed boolits and run them in my tumbler with some nu-finish just like i do with some of my brass [i noticed they seeem to size easier]
and shot them in my ar, i then followed them up with some cast rounds [with no cleaning] the very first shot landed in the group as did the next 19 shots.
i then switched back to the jaxketed for about 100 rounds later in the day.
then back to the cast for another group of 20 the next day.
i am still trying to figure out how to put a coating of this on some boolits to give it a try..