Thanks R5R,
And thanks for sharing the work that you have done with bullet lubes!
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Thanks R5R,
And thanks for sharing the work that you have done with bullet lubes!
R5R. did you say in your last post to use regular 2cycle oil and not synthetic?
I don't want to screw up either.Just want to make sure I'm reading everything right
yeah regular 2 stroke.
we are still workng over the synthetic 2 stroke lubes [gearknasher is mostly]
they seem to respond better to some manipulation of their solvent bases.
we are still working over a sodium stearate based lube trying to refine the process.
once we get that one done we will have a very,very good all round lube.
it however will be much more complicated to make and will be more ingredient specific.
this one is called simple lube because it is simple.
simple to make and negotiable.
you are looking for a specific viscosity from batch to batch.
you use the vasoline to adjust your beeswax to get that same visc from batch to batch.
i weigh and measure so i know what's in there.
adding a little more of the oils makes a difference in the lubes final visc inside the barell.
if you are seeing a little something towards the end of the bbl add a titch more atf. [think you are running out of lube] which you aren't.
if in the middle [lube smears] use just a little more vasoline to make the pressure drop off a little smoother.
this lube can be changed for real cold weather with the addition of a small amount of neatsfoot/mink oil, 1/2 tsp is enough.
but will make the lube respond unfavorably in hot weather.
stay tuned.
Made some simple green this morning and everything seems to be good so far.Not crumbly and is slightly tacky.now will let it set a few days and see how it finishes.
Goodsteel.That is a good list you have ,but I have read on many occasions that the bullet should be sized at or .001-.002 over throat size in a revolver.
excellent tim.
some lubes have a better window as far as pressure/velocity,and alloy compatability.
it's easier to make [modify] a lube [to] work at one end of the pressure/temperature spectrum than it is to make a lube with broad applcations.
I am actually just fine with a lube that is temperature specific if I can tune that lube to work. The big problem for me is knowing how much to tune that lube.
I have been using FWFL since I discovered it, and yours is the next one I am going to try. I bought all the components, now I just have to whip it up and hack out some time to go shooting.
carnuba for the heat and atf for the cold. for the felix.
you end up with two lubes and have to switch up between 40-50-f going both directions.
3-4% carnuba and bout the same on the atf
eutetic has been working over a synthetic felix,and an offshoot in his core testing.
he has had some good luck with modified carnuba wax with ester's and alox 350.
in a rough pitted barell,down to @ minus 14.
he done some initial testing of a sodium stearate lube in cold weather too.
we are gonna work the boundary's on this one pretty hard.
don't be surprised to see a hybrid sodium/not so simple lube at some point.
Well, that's why I want to try SL. With FWFL you have to have several totally different batches of lube. It works like magic when you get it right, but it's a bit of a PITA.
I am hoping to see a bigger temperature tolerance with SL and a much simpler process for modifying it to temperature.
Have you ever thought about experimenting with a cold barrel treatment? Like some wonder goo that you can run a saturated patch down the barrel to kind of "prime the pump" as it were?
Something that would make your first cold shot do pretty much what it's supposed to?
I was considering messing with something, but I am no chemist, and your exploits have convinced me that I am not cut out for lube developing game. I know a little bit about the right way to use lube, but I don't have a clue as to why it works. My mind is based in mechanics. If you need a precision platform to launch your boolits from, then I'm your guy, but you start talking chemistry or electricity, and I can show you how dumb I really am.
Tim, I think many of us started out with the concept of initiating and maintaining a 'wet' barrel, but we're finding that the LESS left in the barrel the better recently. This means soft, "drier" lubes with high film strength that get their job done quietly like a good janitor and you never knew they were there. You'll know you have it right when your first shot from a clean, dry barrel is the same as the tenth shot in the chosen ambient temperature range.
Like I've said before, a good lube won't make an accurate load, but it will sure break one. A good lube does its job by not detracting from the accuracy potential of the rest of the system. Inherently, it can do nothing on it's own to "improve" accuracy, that's done with the way the other components are assembled and tuned.
Gear
that's where the core principle is coming into it's own.
barell condition [internal] is having an effect on how some lubes are proving out.
the rougher the barell the more solid the lube needs to be.
the smoother the thinner type oils seem to play a bigger part.
i'm not sure just yet if it's reacting like oil in an engine or not in how the lube plays a part in the pores of the steel [scratches]
i have read a few times on what has been said about too smooth of a barell not shooting well.
i'm sure this combined with a lubes vi index does have a compatability issue in the long run.
pressure on the boolit from lands and grooves [redial and forward] along with gas pressure also plays a big part in what vi index is needed.
theres a balance needed.
a good lube as pointed out needs a friction index also, whether it's introduced or part of the carriers vi index isn't as important as when/if the lube wet's and flows under these stressors.
all a lube needs to really do is block gas from escaping along the boolit-rifling interface and disappear from the boolit at the muzzle.
it needs to work in the throat and in the bbl [oddly two different situations] and when the powder relaxes enough for the alloy to flex back and settle down in the bbl.
this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.
that's the simple easy explanation.
Run that one my me again, in words that a child could understand.Quote:
this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.
Seems like you are telling me how to measure something.
So far, my aproach to lubes is pretty hulk smash by you fellers standards. I tried FWFL and got it right, and I think I got lucky with a cold weather modified version (thanks Gear!) but I have not had occasion to test it much. All I know is the boolit landed pretty darn close to where I was aiming at 75 yards when I blew a deer to pieces with too soft a boolit[smilie=1: It was freaking cold that day 15* or thereabouts.
Right now its about 50* outside and raining like crazy which is typical Arkansas in January. I think i have a few cold days left to do some testing in, and I want to get as far as I can when it gets cold. I really got caught with my pants down this year. Usually rifle season in Arkansas is about 50 degrees, but this year we had a sudden cold snap right before opening day.
I had not had occasion to really test the lube in cold weather since last year, and back then, I was focused on paper patching, so I missed the opportunity.
I called gear the day before the hunt with a lot of questions.
So, I started reading up on lube.
If you have a quick and easy way to tell if the lube is close, then I want to hear it.
I might also add, that what would totally suffice in place of the ultimate lube, would be an ingredients chart that would show how to whip it up for different temperature ranges. I could make three-four batches of lube, and color them differently. Each one would handle a certain 20-30 degree range of temperature.
That is how I am planning to approach the "quest". If SL is as tunable as FWFL, then I'll sure give it a try.
Tim, having different lubes like that would make it easy, wouldn't it?
My only problem is that I often have ammo loaded for deer season that I may end up shooting up the next summer. Now I am shooting a 20 degree lube at 80 degrees. I don't have unlimited brass so I often need to shoot up ammo in order to get empty cases for a new load idea.
I think Gear and Run are getting close to a multi-temp lube. Eutectic came along with some ideas that made a right turn in the design process, a turn that it loos made a huge increase in success rate. Sometimes that new view on things is a boon, keeps one on his toes and eliminates tunnel vision.
I don't know that you need 20 degree windows really. A 40 and below lube and a 50 and above lube would be fine. Between 40 and 50 either would work acceptably, I would probably favor the colder weather formula.
I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it. There is way more to this stuff than I am supposed to know, makes my brain hurt otherwise.
Brad
The batch of SL I made yesterday kept calling me last night and this morning .I couldn't wait to let it sit a few day.I used it as a pan lube and it worked quite well.Soft enough to cut with a cake cutter and stiff enough to stay in the lube groove. Still nice and tacky.Can't wait to range test it.Just cleaned my Ruger Security Six so I can test the load next time at the range .Two bullets I will be using are the Lyman 358477 and the Lee 358-158 rfn. All unsized at .359 and with an alloy of 2-1 coww/soww. 4.5gr W-W 231.
Another thing I might mention is that I am interested in lube specifically for rifle shooting. My dad was a pistol shooter and a cast booliteer. I followed in his footsteps for several years, but my love is for rifles. They aren't any better, I just can't get enough of 'em!
Well run if that is what you are saying, then I'm in trouble. I would have to start changing something in my setup in order to make the gun start leading. Right now, even in cold weather, I get no leading at 2000fps and air cooled WW lubed with FWFL.Quote:
I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it.
My boolits are fit correctly, and I can do the same thing with one coat of 45/45/10. I'm not using the lube to control leading, I want to use it to improve accuracy.
It seemed to me that you were talking about lube dispersal, possibly a lube star?
Please elaborate my good man!
Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys are talking about exactly what I want to know, and I'm not sure I could catch this wave in a new thread!
it's not always about leading.
quite often what we see in the barell is lube/powder fouling.
i found lube tweaking when i was using carnuba red in my 44.
about half way down the barell in my levergun there was something,rough looking and all feathery.
grrrrr
so in goes a patch and out comes some lube&gunk nice and easy like.
hmm out comes a piece of paper tape and i make a mark on the barell.
i happen to have several loads and several lubes with me that day just a clean out the closet type thing.
so i try the load again yeah there it is.
swap to the same lube but with a different powder.
it's still there but it has moved down the barell about 1-1/2-two inches??
patch time same gunk just in a different place.
aha light bulb weak and dim but still on.
gas volume.
i can manipulate this.
next lube things change,next lube clean barell it looks like,next lube gunk all the way down the barell wth.
patch time eeewwww look at all that gunk
lets try again.
same rounds ,,,nothing ....what? nothing.
clean patch comes out clean,,, now how does that happen.
that lube was cleaning out the other lube and that was what i could see the first time.
even though i couldn't see the first lube in the barell is was leaving traces behind.
the lube that was cleaning out the other lubes was/is a lith grease based lube [thickened further with aluminum stearate] it has done the same thing in other guns too.
but had a tendency to throw an occasional purge flyer.
so i started thickening it up some trying to control it's free oils.
got a good mix,then watched it fall apart when the heat come.
i could add more wax and control them further.
if you wanted a lube you could manipulate up and down for heat index in small 20-30 degree windows that would be it.
you would be able to add some carnuba/b-wax at 80 and take the lube to 100+
take the carnuba out and go down to 40,take out some of the b-wax and go down further to 20 or lower if you truly run into 0 and below then adding another oil would bring out what you need there.
manipulating a known good lube is nothing more than controlling the release of oils in temp specific zones.
So lube purging is simply a case of having a lube so fluid that it moves the gunk clean out of the muzzle. I am also assuming that most lubes that tend to have purge issues also leave a really wet lube star?
I am also reading into this a bit more. The viscosity change is what determines how far down the tune the goo builds up. Close to breech, thin the mix. Clear out the muzzle, thicken it up. We aren't really adding or subtracting lubrication, we are simply modifying the total lube viscosity and how it behaves under pressure in the barrel.
So a short barrel like a handgun may not show issues in cold the same as a rifle as the lube in a handgun may still be able to have the goo blown clear of the muzzle.
That is my take on the current Runisms.
That is pretty much it. Simple Lube is a basic approach to doing this, and it can take higher velocity and pressure than some of the other simple lubes (like beeswax/vaseline), so is more useful, and it won't accumulate hard fouling like the classic NRA 50/50. Just adjust the total viscosity for the temp with vaseline or ATF, and add/subtract the two-stroke oil to deal with gum issues. I think two versions would be plenty to run the gambit of temps.
To make and all-around lube, you have to find ingredients to balance the lube through the entire spectrum of temps, pressures, velocities, lube groove volume, and bore finish. I think we're really close to this with several formulas, just need more testing.
Simple Lube, though, will probably end up doing it all with two versions provided you don't expose the ammo to too much heat. Ben's Red is another good, basic, middle-of-the-road lube, basically a replacement for NRA 50/50. Felix Lube is still my Go-To when all else fails, but to do it all I've needed to adjust it.
Gear
Tim, I know you're after some specific formulas, and they will come with more testing I'm sure, but in the meantime, try the Simple Lube per the recipe, two strings of ten shots each, five to a group, allowing the rifle to cool to near ambient temperature in between. Examine the bore, muzzle crown, etc., and overlay the four targets in the order they were shot to see what happened to the groups. Numbering each shot helps, especially if you get flyers. That should be all it takes to get an idea of how it's working. If your groups hold up.
Longhorn lube was doing really well until after the first ten in a session, I was getting 1-2 bad flyers in the second set of ten, near the end. It helps to know exactly where the flyers are occurring in the count for lube adjustment. Also, more data is better, I didn't conclude I was having flyers until about the fourth set of 20 shots from two different guns, several lube tweaks were made and many more groups fired, and lo and behold, the changes to the lube had a very obvious effect. You do this long enough and you can sort of predict what will do what and allow you to speak in the somewhat cryptic generalities that Run and I tend to do here.
Gear
Isn't everything Run types a bit cryptic? Hence my term, Runisms. He does have a particular style.
I think Simple Lube is a great step forward. Easy to make. Easy to obtain ingredients. Would fit the bill for 90 percent of all shooting.
I need to find a day with decent weather to get out and see how Bens Red handles the cold. Need to sight in the 375 with the scope my wife got me for Chritmas too.
yeah it takes me a while to express what i see in my head.
i see pictures of how things work and then have to try and express the mechanics of it in words and sometimes the words i use have two different meanings or seem to contradict each other.
it's like a jaxketed boolit striking a medium i "see" the lead and jaxket flowing and moving together not just the boolit opening in a certain way.
it's how i see lube/pressure and alloy working in a barell.
only i have a hard time slowing everything down in the throat enough to express what's happening.
and then i get a migraine.
I totally understand the "see it in the mind" thing. Trying to describe to others what you can visualize can be a pain.
I have that issue with my father, he isn't a visualizes at all. Needs to see it on paper.
I must not be thinking hard enough, I don't get migraines. I am OK with that.
felix put up a post in the extreme thread.
i highlighted part of it, explaining the middle section of what the lube smear was showing.
a middle modifier is what was needed to fix the smearing right there, something that made the transition from when the oils were working to when the waxes were working.
remember the wax is what takes up the pressure and makes the jump in the throat but it is just a solid wax at that point and contributes nothing to the lubrication [no wet] unless ambient temperature,or too much oil, causes it to be.
So wax is what keeps the gas blowby under control in the throat til we get a good seal. That is where the transition from wax to oil takes place. Now the oil gets released (?) by the carrier and wets the bore. The place where this transition takes place is the variable.
That about right?
It makes sense to me. Years ago I was getting throat leading in my 1911. BassAkwards suggested a thin coat of LLA on the same lubed bullets to stop this. It worked like a charm. All I was doing was stopping gas blow by.
It is all coming clearer and clearer to me.
yeah and further down the bbl you have a point where gas pressure drops off.
this allows the boolit and the lube seal to relax making another transition where the lube has to remain in [or get to] a wet stage enough to cover up the boolits relaxation and seal.
hopefully the wax is in a plastic enough state by now to make the transition not too wet or too hard.
then you need the glide going out to the end of the barell so that the lube can be flung off.
at any time before the relaxation point the lube being too viscous can cause gas cutting.
it being not viscous enough during and after this point causes jettison issues and can contribute to muzzle leading.
How many sticks would the recipe in the first post yield if poured into hollow stick moulds ? I would like to be able to do a batch run while Im at it :)
i'm not sure what a hollow stick weighs, about an oz i think.
a batch will do about 2,000-2,500 429241's or 454424's
or about 12 million 38 boolits [probably 5-k] it just seems like 12 million.
I made a 1/4 batch today (used some blue semi-synth 2-stroke so I'd get green lube, dammit... first batch I did with regular 2-cycle was boring tan) and poured a .75"x3.75" solid stick. I held a little back 'cuz there was some gak in the bottom of my pouring cup that I didn't want in the stick.
I'll be more clever with my next stick mold so they're hollow...
mike
And I guess all this is having to happen over top of the residue left from the previous shots, which must play a role too.
I understand why you would want a "dryer" lube that does not leave any residue. If nothing else, it makes the residue left in the barrel less of an issue, one less in a list of about ten to fifteen.
It's kind of like trying to find your way out of a locked room with doors of every size, (some you can barely fit through) and a kiosk in the center of the room that has 100 keys on it, that must be pushed in a certain order to unlock a door.
Or trying to guess the combination of a safe that has three dials on it?
That's what makes my head swim. More than three variables that can change the equation. With lube, it seems like every change causes an effect on everything else.
Tim, if it was easy would it be fun? Aren't some of the projects you have worked on similar? Figuring out how to machines a part for exampl. Done in the right order it isn't bad, do it out of order and things go to heck quick.
I will say to certain that the more technical aspects of this are new ideas to me. Never though about what happens to the bullet part way down the barrel when the pressure drops low enough to stop ensuring obturation of the bullet. Once Run mentioned this it becomes obvious that the lube needs to be capable of ensuring a seal is held. Isit obvious to a casual observer? Nope. I think it is interesting that this may be the cause of muzzle leading.
Biggest thing to understand is that a lube, like a bullet, goes thru numerous parts of the firing sequence and what happens at each has unique demands. That was the big "ahhhh" moment for me in all this.
I agree! Run is indeed unique! There is a LOT of experience inside Run that is trying to come out to help us all....
I said early on in the "Extreme" thread that Run just might be the one to come up with 'it'.... 'It' being The Extreme lube formula. I still believe this.
While he can come across as 'cryptic'. I believe him genuine. I see no innuendos or 'cryptic camouflage' in any of his posts.
Eutectic
you both have a good grasp of the idea.
the thing is [term trick comes to mind] is you have a different gas volume to deal with 5 grs of red dot or whatever in the 45 is different than 10 grs of unique or 18 grs of 2400 or 30 grs of 4895 in different barells.
so you have that pressure peak in different places,and a relaxation point in different places along the barell.
keeping the lube friction high helps the carry over of the different ingredients across the length of the barell.
keeping just enough oil release to not muck up the works helps keep the seal.
this is why we have gotten away from the high oil content lubes and have shifted to low oil content high friction ones.
we are focusing on the middle modifier that will help on both ends.
i need to get in gear and go grab some mineral oil for a sodium soap modification i wanna try.
to try and replace the inferior grade of vaseline we have available right now.
Well now I know why I sometimes get a rough spot in my 03A3 barrel about 3/4 of the way down the barrel, shoot enough and then sometimes lead will show up there and not at the muzzle. It doesn't happen with a premium lube that I buy but does with most of the home made varietys and some of the receipes that I have tried here. The Simple lube did for me too so I added some X- Lox to it but haven't had a chance to try it.
Richard
excellent.....some good feed back.
richard.
let us know how the alox works.
your little fuzz spot there is exactly what i was describing.
i'd like to know your powder [i have an idea what it's burn rate is allready]
alox does make the lube a little softer and more flexable but it might have some purge flyers.
and they may not show up untill late into a long string of fire [around 18-20 shots]
this is the negotiable part i was talking about earlier, another tsp of vaseline or 1/2 tsp of atf could fix this part of it for richard.
the non standardization of vaselne/white petrolatum is letting us down again.
18 grains of 2400 with NOE 311299 for one load this has been my go to load for about a year and often I shoot the rifle until it gets hot as in competition during the heat of last summer. I was thinking that 2400 was the problem so I switched to 5744 and that didn't seem to make any difference. I also started shooting the new NOE 311365 which holds more lube than the 299 and still didn't make any noticable difference. The lube store bought lube was LBT which for sure works but I seem to get a purge problem now and then with it usually right at the worst time, usually during a match after a long string all of a sudden there goes a couple of wild flyers. I recently bought a some White Label 2500+ and it shoots very well but haven't shot it enough to find any problems.
I would really like to make my own and keep following threads like this one thanks to you and Felix and several others I keep plugging along looking and expermenting. Keep up the good work and thanks.
Richard
i was thinking 17-18 grs.
try just a little more of the vaseline [one more tsp per batch]
Will do.
RB
You know Lamar....the simplest way for me to get the simple lube would be for you to just send me a 100 lbs.