They're all seared and we all see dimly.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12
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As I said in a previous post:
"Tithing is a command under the Old Covenant with Israel. The giving of 10% is not commanded for members of the Church. What is required of the Church is taking care of those that have genuine needs that they cannot meet themselves. Support of those that "labor in the Word" is also encouraged."
As for motivation for why people support or do not support the church...well, motivation is a hard thing to nail down and varies from person to person.
So tithing is an Old Testament/Covenant requirement and charity is New Testament/Covenant? Uh, no. Old testament definitely states take care of family and other Israelites. Benevolence to other than Israelites is mentioned also. Read history and find other Gov. that are 'charitable' to their people AND others? Won't find many that are NOT a derivative of Judaeo/Christians.Quote:
"Tithing is a command under the Old Covenant with Israel. The giving of 10% is not commanded for members of the Church. What is required of the Church is taking care of those that have genuine needs that they cannot meet themselves
One could also read the Apocrypha; "Tobias, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees, remain in the Catholic Bible. First Esdras, Second Esdras, Epistle of Jeremiah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Prayer of Azariah, and Laodiceans are not today considered part of the Catholic apocrypha. " (sic Wiki).
Someone said the church has more money than them, I ask the question once again, if people attending a church do not give, where does the church get money?
A church properly using the funds will give back to the community and spread the Gospel which is the great commission from Jesus. Money is required to make it happen.
Again, if you give faithfully, watch and see how God blesses you financially. I have seen it time and time again. Give it a try, you will be surprised. I know many folks that started giving 10% and were shocked at how the blessings came back to them. Many that insisted they "could not afford" to tithe and now somehow, their finances work out.
Rosewood
Someone else may have mentioned it, but Tithe means a tenth. That is where 10% came from.
[QUOTE=Ickisrulz;4228736As for motivation for why people support or do not support the church...well, motivation is a hard thing to nail down and varies from person to person.[/QUOTE]
It's not really. The middle verses of Romans 3 makes it plain why we do all the sinful things we do.
There may be all sorts of reasons to not support a given congregation. Hopefully it has to do with what is believed, taught and confessed. If that's the case then you find another congregation. But ultimately, not supporting the proclamation of the Word in The Church is because people see no value in it, comparatively speaking.
Now the interesting part. 1) Where were the priests? - the Deacon's purpose per Paul.Quote:
The woman with the mites thought it was worth everything she had
2) Where were her kin? - by law, to support her.
3) the really interesting one, was Eve required to give a tithe/offering? were women required to give tithe/offerings?
4) as a Jew, Jesus did tithe. To NOT do so would have been sin - he was a working carpenter.
5) He never said offerings/tithe was wrong, only the improper use of such by the 'temple officials'.
6) He never said taxes were wrong either.
One should apply His statements to 'church officials' as needed.
Got the email yesterday, $100k below budget this year and trying to raise $3M for a new facility.
Traditional interpretations of the story of "The Widow's Mites" have always bothered me. Giving away everything you have seems a rather foolish thing to do. Did Jesus really teach we should give until it hurts? Would anyone seriously council a fellow Christian to ignore their basic material needs and donate all their money to the church?
Was Jesus praising the widow's generosity or criticizing the "teachers of the Law?"
Luke 12:38-40 precedes the story of the widow and gives the needed context:
As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”
Immediately after this passage we have the story of the widow's offering.
Jesus was pointing out that the "teachers of the Law" demanded offerings that hurt the givers in the name of God. The widow who threw in her two mites was an example of the harm the demand for offerings can cause. The teachers themselves had plenty of money and therefore could give freely from their excess. The widow was not in the same position.
My view is that the story of the widow's mites is a lesson to show how religious leaders placed burdens on people that they could not bear and did not originate with God.
1. Don't know that they knew her situation. But as said earlier Judaism commanded care for the neighbor. If they knew and didn't help they were derelict as were the other worshippers.
2. Appears she is a 'full' (my term) widow and not simply a woman who lost her husband. She probably had no kin left. This is addressed by the New Testament, Paul, I believe.
3. Eve died before the Law was given. Not sure about the requirement for women without husbands but otherwise this would have been a duty for the head of household.
4. Yes, Jesus kept all of the Law perfectly.
5. He does free us from the ceremonial law and from having to keep any law to be saved. However He does maintain we're to remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. So He doesn't suspend attending church nor our privilege to support the same.
6. As much as I would like it if He didn't, He said to render unto Caesar. Pay your taxes. But vote and try to change wastefulness.
Regarding your last statement, all churches are full of sinners and as such they make bad decisions at times. It's up to congregants to reform their churches when they get off track. Church attendance isn't a spectator sport. Get involved. But be informed on the Scriptures and your church's doctrine.
David
The teachers were hypocrites, the rich gave what was comfortable and they widow gave everything out of her poverty. Jesus holds her up as an example to shame them but He never indicates that He views what she did negatively or that she shouldn't have. He also doesn't command us to do so. That's not the point there. The Acts Christians also sold everything they had and held it in common and used it to support one another and the assembly. But there's no command to do that either. The Scriptures are simply showing people's love for God and His Church and how they supported it. The Word meant something to them.
David
Fellow named J.C Penny gave God 90% and lived on 10% according to old story. Told his employees if they tithed and giving to God caused them financial hard ship he would refund the amount. According to the story not one person missed what they gave to the Lord an the rest seemed th go further. Do not know if that is true but I do know the Lord has never failed to meet our needs. Have you tried or or you just robbing God and making excuses to cover your actions. Tough question but requires a heart examined answer
I realize the attachment folks have to their church but got a basic question...if there were no stone and mortar "church building" would the religion people choose to follow then not exist? I've watched churches for the many years I've lived and the funding becomes almost an addiction.
When I was young we carried folding chairs in my old pickup to a dance studio in Northern Colorado...we set up the chairs and Father Malcom Boyd conducted his services there 3 times on Sunday...it didn't require much if any money at all...people attended...there was food after church that the members brought and when there was a baptism (2 of my kids were baptized by Father Graham) it was not conducted in a fancy "nook" in a high dollar church setting...it was simple and in the same "dance studio" where the services were held...are they less baptized than if they had been at St. John's in Denver? I think not.
The "trappings" do not mean much to me...the spirit (and I am not a Christian in the strictest sense of the word) seems to be wherever I am willing to meet him...Where I attend my spiritual services it might be any day of the week...it might be most any time of the day or evening..and it may be in a church basement, a county building rec room, a library, a restaurant banquet room,etc...the money comes strictly from a basket being passed and the literature is free to those that can't afford it and at cost for those that can...if we had to build a building, outfit it and pay someone to operate it...we'd have to just shut down.
Different strokes for different folks..I put an amount in the basket that is more than most and less than some...I don't care if the person next to me can put anything in the basket or not and frankly if he or she needs a burger I'd rather they take a couple of bucks out of the basket..I've attended these kinds of get togethers for over 3 decades now..and somehow it always gets "funded" and just marches on..Thank God.
Not to be argumentative, and I do believe that giving is important, but I've also heard that many times over the years. We faithfully tithed for over a decade, through thick and thin, even through a time of unemployment and underemployment.Quote:
Again, if you give faithfully, watch and see how God blesses you financially. I have seen it time and time again. Give it a try, you will be surprised. I know many folks that started giving 10% and were shocked at how the blessings came back to them. Many that insisted they "could not afford" to tithe and now somehow, their finances work out.
Due to increasing cost of living (growing family) and changes at work, things have become very tight. We have everything we need and have no debt besides the house, but we are extremely frugal and as time goes on we find monthly outgo often exceeds monthly income.
I'm at the point in life that saving for retirement and putting something aside to help the kids with college expenses in the near future should be important for us, and at this point there's just no way to do that. We still give, but have backed off of the magical 10%.
My question for those that say I'm robbing God by giving less is this (not picking on anyone here, I've heard that phrase in many a sermon): should I continue to give beyond our means, forgo any thought of saving for the future, and have faith that money will appear somehow when we need it? My wife feels that way but defers to my financial concerns. Should I do as she wants, and just hope that we win the lottery or something in the future? This is a sincere question.
I heard many a testimony from people who attribute their financial success to the fact that they tithe. Not to knock them but I've also known many financially successful people who give little or nothing. I think the personal benefits of giving are not always (or necessarily at all) financial success.
Faith is a difficult subject for me. I think I have faith; I want to have faith. I know I'm lacking but to what degree?
I remember reading a story of a guy in India that a friend of mine really respected. The guy was a native Christian convert that became a missionary to his own people. Admirable, but there was a number of things that he wrote that made me really wonder and question where he was coming from. One of those was where he wrote about his admiration of a fellow native missionary who felt called to give away what he had and take his family to be a missionary to another part of the country. They suffered terribly, to the point that his wife starved to death. The author was so impressed that this other guy had such strong faith that he did as he felt called and his wife died as a result. Is my faith weak because I'm unwilling to face not being able to provide for my family? I'm sorry but I have a problem with that.
If we weren't so frugal, if we drove new cars and bought morning lattes, and then complained that we couldn't afford to give, then I'd agree about a serious need for a change of heart.
Apparently not enough. Personally I'm inclined to think that the whole "If you tithe God will make you rich" and "If you don't you're robbing God" thing is a bit of a stretch, often pushed by well-meaning pastors with building projects. I can pretty much guarantee you that our 5 or 6% is a lot more of a sacrifice for us than the 10% tithe is for some holier-than-thou folks. That 5+% is still the largest discretionary expenditure of the year.
I had a conversation once with a financial expert, and was told basically that I was an idiot for tithing, given our tight finances and inability to save anything for the future. We continue to give anyhow, just now a smaller percentage. Am I really robbing God?