Not many people these days ever take the time to learn to run a bolt with any speed.
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Amen to the comment about LEARNING how to run a bolt-action.
In Canadian Army training, we spent many, many hours in dry-fire practice with the #4 Enfield, loading with drill cartridges and cycling the rifle rapidly.
The result was that even 14-year-old young men could load the empty #4 rifle and deliver TEN effective rounds in 45 seconds, with full-power .303 service ammunition! I do love the #4 Rifle....
The shooter should NOT take his eyes off the target to work the bolt! It should be an automatic sequence of events.... fire the shot, work the bolt, while watching to see if a follow-up is needed. Also, the rifle butt should not leave the shoulder for cycling.
Taking the eyes off a live target is asking to "lose" that target.
Excellent point Bruce and I agree totally. Running the bolt is not something people were born knowing how to do, and this is a point I make over and over here at the site. If you want to achieve some degree of proficiency with firearms you are going to have to get trained, and drilled, by professionals, or at least someone who knows what he is doing and can instruct you properly in the basics of operating whatever system you are using. Intensive training is what gets you good.
Many of us got training in the Military, however the training I got in the USAF in 1969 consisted of one day in class, and 60 rounds of ammo on the range. Hardly adequate by any stretch of the imagination. At the time Infantry training was a little more intense but nothing compared to what they teach now.
I have a young friend who was a Scout Sniper in AFg up until about 2 years ago. He told me they spent one whole 10-12 hour day every two weeks on the range shooting M4's, and Pistols. The majority of the drilling was on the M4, and pistol because these are the primary weapons everybody carries everyday. They shot thousands of rounds every session.
You can teach a monkey to shoot with that much drilling!
Outside of the current Military or a Law Enforcement entity that actually emphasizes shooting as a skill needed for the job, you are not going to get the level of training needed to stay in top form unless you attend a school of some sort, or have a local instructor drill you. You also need to shoot frequently to keep those skills up and get more training as frequently as you can to improve.
Officers in my local Sheriffs Office don't shoot but once a year (because the county won't pay for their ammo?) this is not conducive of any kind of professional response under duress. The Armorer lives across the street from me and his stories of incompetence are endless.
This is why you see Police shootings where the officer fires 15 rounds at a target 10 yards away and only hits it twice. I remember one Police Shooting in Chicago where there were 50 + bullet holes in the car and the guy was hit twice! That's some fine shootin'!
The biggest problem with shooting skills is that they go away. Little bits and pieces fall off everyday that you are not reinforcing those skills. And the longer in between your School Visits the more likely you are to commit some grievous error.
It happens to everyone and no one is exempt. Just look at the instructor in AZ who got killed teaching a 9 year old how to shoot and UZI! Great Idea huh?
Just goes to show,,, that if you really think you know what's going on, you're probably FOS!
Nobody is exempt from that either!
Randy
On another note: I heard back from my contact at Ruger about the .223 scout rifle.
Randy,
It'salmost identical to the 308 Scout other than caliber and a little more weight. Same action, almost the same magazine (Accurate Mag, but with a plasticliner to properly align the smaller cartridges.)
No,it is not a proper Scout, but it is very accurate, fun to shoot, and for folkswho don't handload, it's affordable to shoot!
Best, Mark
I held the new 5.56 out of excitement but then quickly realized it didnt feel any different than my .308 Scout.
It doesn't feel any different until you pull the trigger. My 14 year old is very recoil sensitive and he was able to shoot the 5.56 without much difficulty. He did prefer the .22 Hornet because it had even less (i.e., no) recoil. I set them both up identically. I am taking the .308 hunting in a few weeks.
Doc
I get what you are saying but I have to disagree that to be proficient with a particular firearm you have to have professional training. I have a military background and fired a lot of ammo but none of my training was ever with a bolt gun but even so I'm pretty quick with one.
Yes, there is always more to learn of course but I can run one fairly quickly and still get rounds on target (clearly if I slow down accuracy improves).
I suppose you could argue that my incentive was that I wanted to learn to run one faster but that is not really the same as incentive training. The only instruction I had was a little reading online and a couple youtube videos.
Also, I dont believe (could be wrong, heck it's happened before) the police get as much training mentally as military types do for preparing for a gunfight. Yes 50 rounds for two hits sounds like terrible shooting but until an individual is on a two way range there is no way to know how that person will react. Some of the biggest talkers were the first to tuck tail once that first round sailed past while some of us didnt seem to rattle so easily.
Shooting skills degrading is definitely a truism. I have some leg points toward my distinguished in both rifle an pistol. When I got out I planned to try to get at least one of them but not having a proper rifle prevented me from competing. Now days there is no way I could be competitive. Sure I could go shoot but I wouldn't be one of the leaders by any means. Maybe I could relearn (with or without others training me) but it's surprising how fast skills like that fade away.
[QUOTE=HawkCreek;2960418] I have to disagree that to be proficient with a particular firearm you have to have professional training.(QUOTE)
I agree with your disagreement.
Mostly, what it requires is willingness to take the time to practice with YOUR rifle, along with some reading about what we are trying to accomplish and the best ways to do it.
When I received a Beretta "riot gun" (1201FP autoloader, 20" cylinder "choke"---i.e.: NO choke) , all my shotgunning had been either for hunting or for a bit of trap. I set out to learn about this new activity, and bought an Ayoob book about the combat shotgun. In very short order, I became a MUCH better defensive shotgunner, avoiding many of the common difficulties.
Being many miles from training centers or even places visited by traveling shooting schools, I was well accustomed to "doing for myself", and it works alright for me..... good enough to whip the daylights out of an entire forty-man RCMP detachment at their annual qualifications in the Territories (they even gave me all the brass, .38-9mm-.308!).
As civilian shooters, WE determine how much, now often, and what type of training or shooting we do. I also find that I DISAGREE with some of the training provided by SOME of the professionals, based on their own writings. Others, of course, I fully agree with.
My whole point is that,,, professional training gets you there faster. I can be back up to speed with a pistol or Auto Rifle in 2 days at Front Sight. I'm going later this month taking my CZ82 to learn how to run Cocked and Locked which I have never been drilled on. I will be ready to use the gun for IDPA when I return.
Structured drilling and following a strict gradient approach to that drilling is what gets you there fastest. You start slow and deliberate and progress to full speed with time pressure.
Is it the only way,,, NO. Is it the fastest and most efficient way. Yes.
YMMV
Randy
That is true. Took me a lot of dry fire practice to get any speed with a bolt action but ounces I tried it with live fire it wasn't as fast as I thought. Reading online I found a different technique that I learned in a day. Now I can get a rounds off in under 2 seconds. Not sure what I'll ever need to shoot that fast for but I like being proficient with whatever I'm carrying.
Racing a clock is unforgiving!
I once put a partner ashore upwind from a bull moose, with the intent that I should go ashore well downwind and wait for the moose to come to me.
It worked, and I dropped the moose at forty feet with two rounds from my M700 .30'06.
My pal said the two shots were well under two seconds apart.
Nice! Never had the chance to hunt moose myself, they are a once in a lifetime deal here in Washington and here in the desert I can wait for a good broadside shot on deer. It's nice to know you have that as a backup though.
I will have to learn to do the "Mad Minute Drill" With my Enfield. I have watched people on YouTube do it and running the bolt is done with the thumb and fore finger, pulling the trigger with the middle finger.
Running the bolt fast comes in when you are either shooting at dangerous things or need to be sure something is down.
With an autoloader this is never a problem. With the Bolt gun as soon as the round is on it's way you have an empty gun. This needs to be rectified immediately.
It is best done with the gun on the shoulder so that a follow up shot can take place ASAP.
You will find that shorter butt stocks with LOP in the 12.5-13" range allow you to operate the bolt faster than longer stocks do. Surprisingly I learned this from a Whelen catalog I have reprinted from the 30's. This caused me to remove all the stock spacers from MY Scout. It works!
Surprising how those guys had all this stuff figured out long before we were even born! It never ceases to amaze me all the knowledge that is out there. I very much enjoy learning about all the things we should already know.
Randy
Watch some videos of those crazy Norwegian competition shooters. They make an autoloader look slow.
Personally I'm faster with one spacer in my GSR than I am with the shorter Frontier but I'm tall with long arms. Still the GSR is shorter than what conventional wisdom says my LOP should be.
If you're a Whelan fan try the Whelen Challenge sometime. Humbling but fun.
I can tell you that NOWHERE in Canadian-Army training on the #4 was the trigger pulled with anything except the trigger finger, in the normal manner. Nor was the term "mad minute" ever used.... it was just "X rounds rapid-fire at your target in front, FIRE!"... and then, Katy Bar The Door!
Also, the bolt manipulation was done with the heel of the palm (closing) and the front edge of the palm (opening).
The bolt handle is never "grasped" in any manner. The manipulation is one smooth motion, not forward-then-down or up-then-back.
The trigger finger falls naturally on the trigger if the motion is correct (for right-handers, of course.... I'm a lefty and that's an entirely different story). Even at that, the #4 is extremely fast, going up-and-over to reach the bolt handle.
It's odd to look back across all those years to training days with the #4 in the 1950s. The experience gave me a love for that rifle that is still strong today. It's surely my all-time favorite rifle design, out of dozens of candidates. I have two as-new examples within reach as I write.
I bet you're getting ready to shoot one or both pretty soon too. All this talk about #4's should have got you back in the mood.
I might suggest taking one to Canada with you this year along with your Scout when you go see your Brother.
This Enfield gun has had greater affect on me than most other guns I have bought. New or old. The Scout is first, but it was pretty much all about spending money until I got what I wanted out of it. I'm pretty much there right now. I've got a good load that works perfectly for my uses.
The #4 Project was more about cosmetic resurrection, and learning about the guns, their history and uses. Now that project has evolved to load development which still has a long way to go. Getting some boolits to work in it will be a great achievement.
Just finding some Jacketed Bullets to load will also be a great achievement. They are definitely not as common as .308 sized bullets. That re supply should be coming later this month.
But the real thing making me twitch right now is the .223 version of the Scout. I held back on the Mossberg .223 bolt gun simply because it is ugly. Mossberg's have always been ugly. The Scout is NOT ugly,,, in fact it looks cool. I would have liked a smaller lighter gun using Pmags or even Mini14 mags, but will have to hold one of these before I pass judgment or write a check. 6 lbs would have been the correct weight for this gun. My Kel Tec SU16 in .223 is 6 lbs 1oz. with two loaded mags in the buttstock, and ready to go. The .223 Scout would have been a no brainer at that weight.
I just ordered 6,000 ea. factory new Hornady 5.56 55gr FMJ bullets from Mid South for $461.78. That's .07 ea! That's .02 less than the recycled bullets I bought a year ago.
Randy
We just got done with our LR schooling. Im coming home with some valuable info and most of all my GSR performed GREAT. The only time it got sketchy was at 1200yds. Then again with that short barrel and the load i used, it was definately sub-sonic at 1,200yds. BUT i did manage to get 3 out of 8 hits on a 24" square plate. I have ZERO complaints with my GSR for shooting LR.
The instructor even paid it a compliment on how well it was shooting! Now that felt good!
All in all the class was great and wow, we couldnt have picked a better time of year to go. The range (which is part of the scenery) was absolutely beautiful!
Lefty: That is great! hits at 1200 yards? who'd a thunk it from a *** Ruger Generic Gun?
I kinda figured that it was possible since I had a 5" 3 shot group at 500 meters. I wouldn't hesitate to take mine to a class like that, and all I'd add is a nice Harris Bipod to replace the Chinese one I have now. I'd shoot my standard load too.
I hope all the naysayers choke on this bit of news!
On another note, I got to hold and peruse a .223 Scout the other day. It is identical to a .308 Scout in every way except for hole in barrel, smaller bolt face, and an AI magazine with a plastic insert to take up the slack. The gun weighs slightly more than a normal Scout due to more material left in the barrel.
I'd kind of like one.
Glad to hear you had fun in your class. Learning how to use firearms better is always a good time.
Randy
I also had a wonderful opportunity of shooting a custom .338 Lapua magnum at the 30" square plate at 1 mile away. I managed to get 2 of 3 hits on that one.
Attachment 121381
My Scout rifle fills the freezer for the first time .