Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.
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Just anneal the necks and put a slight roller crimp on the neck that will stretch the neck but don't over do the crimp.
There are things available. I don't know much about any of them but TexasMac has a very good article on the various methods. I have planned on making up a case "nibbing" tool for use in a lathe. That would give me options for other cases once the tooling is made. I have a bunch of .40-65 brass that is about the same amount sort. Short brass gives me paper rings and while they seem not to cause any real problems they are a PITA.
Brass is pretty easy to work with when you have the tooling. It does work harden rather quickly and should be annealed often if your moving a lot of it around.
A little update on my "old roller" pp loading quest:
Talked to my good friend who I acquired the .44 Remington from just a couple of days ago, and he told me there was a history to the rifle that he tried to get the official paperwork for it back then when he got it years ago (and quite a few years ago now, at that). The gun originally was owned by a family who had a relative who used the gun in the West back "In The Day," and he (my bud when he got the gun) saw a family picture of the rifle leaning up against a wagon wheel, with a cartridge belt, and the wagon stacked with buffalo hides. My good friend also said he could recognize the rifle by the grain in the stock, and my buddy builds very nice m.l. guns, besides, and his scrutiny of stock wood undeniably verified the claim. I believe him, and what a very, very cool thing.
My friend tried every avenue to get the provenance from the prior owner, but couldn't make it happen (bad communication glitches; phone numbers disconnected and things just falling through the cracks, and lost). Long story short, the story behind the gun is a good one, but can't be absolutely proven; mystiques are ok my me, anyway. I do trust my friend with the info he gave me, as he is a gunsmith, total gun-crank buddy of mine who I believe wholeheartedly. All the background on the gun, though a cool story, only adds to the great thing that I own it now. Ha!
My bud also told me that at some point back in the past, the gun was re-barreled with a factory, period Remington barrel, marked 44 just in front of the forearm nosecap. It also has the number 1371 on the bottom barrel flat under the forearm. So, don't know when the gun was re-barreled, but to me, it really doesn't matter. I just love the old thing.
Also, I tried to run (gently, no scratches!) a .439" pin gauge into the bore from the muzzle for a first time measurement; didn't go. I am waiting for two pin gauges that I ordered that will measure .437" and .438" to see how they might (or might not) fit. And just for a try, I ran a .41 Rem Mag, unsized, fired case into the muzzle just to see how it fit, and it did, and the case fit a little bit loosely, which measured RIGHT at, .436." I know, bubba deal there. But I got somewhat of an idea of the bore measurement until I can be more accurate before I have a visit with Steve Brooks (and a fresh slugging session, too).
So this is interesting; old factory re-barreled #1 sporting roller with a history (when re-barreled; never know?), with a near .43 Spanish bore (?), and I DO have a set of .43 Spanish Lee dies. The best thing with this rifle is that I don't have to have this gun up and running with any kind of a deadline. PURE FUN from my end... Got my .44 pp template from BACO, Seth Cole 55 8lb. paper ordered and coming, and all the time the Good Lord will let me have building an accurate pp load. If that bore measures out @ say, .437" or .438," would it still be considered a .44/77? Ha! I don't care!
I just got done reading a post on this forum yesterday that sums up all of this B.P.C.R. wonderful sickness we have (that I have anyway). It's by a guy with the handle of Hiwall55 (back in Dec. of '19), and he said in a post, "The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." Then, "Good luck, Bill." I think I'll make a nicely lettered and framed wall hangered quote of those words right above my reloading bench to always keep me focused on this unbelievable journey I'm (we're) on.
This journey, quest, will be continued... and again, thanks for ALL of your help.
That is a great story! Wish you could get a copy of that picture! Keep in mind that back then Remington used the British/Colt method of caliber. For instance, in their catalogues it clearly states 44-100 bore because that was what it was nominally. In essence, we are shooting 45 cal 44-77 when using the modern method of groove diam which came about mostly in the advent of smokeless powder. There are a number of 46 rimfire sporters around and some, not so honestly at times, have changed to centerfire and rechambered to 44-77. Guess what? The groove on the 46 is also around 452ish or slightly larger.
Not saying yours is but there are smiths around that can build 5 groove barrels to any dimension and remark them. However, an assessment of barrel markings is usually enough to confirm originality. My serials all match throughout but the barrel address is that of a manufacture in the early 1880's and not the early 70's the 12xx suggests. Either it was rebarreled by Remington or maybe a rifle made up from leftover parts at the factory. The 2 in my 4-digit rifle had a chip that shows in each place the serial occurs including the barrel which suggests coming from the factory. It has some salt and pepper frecking ahead of the chamber but other than that is entirely shootable. Have fun and post pics!
reinert,
If the bore (land) diameter of your roller is something around .436-.438" that would put it in line with what modern day .44-77 barrels are. Mine, which is a Krieger barrel, measure pretty much right at .438".
I don't recall if you have any cases that have been fired in your rifle or not. If you do the mouth ID would tell you the largest diameter bullet you would be able to chamber. Once you have all the numbers you'll be able to find out what your bullet has to look like to fit YOUR rifle.
The twist rate will tell you the maximum length you can work with.
A chamber cast will tell you some much needed info too.
Good luck with your journey and be sure to enjoy the process of developing and shooting paper patch bullets. Oh, and thank you for reviving the thread!
Ditto on the chamber cast. If it has a 45 degree chamber step into the lands it is most assuredly modern as the originals have PPB chambers. However, I'm hoping and betting yours are authentic. There was a lot of variability and there are rifles around that have seemingly modern chamber dimensions. Thats why slugging and chamber casts are important.
DT and Yellowhouse,
I do have fire formed cases from the rifle; once fired, actually. When I got the gun, my buddy had some loaded, grease grooved bullet rounds from the 100 Jamison brass I got with the rifle. I fired most of the rounds, but since we were shooting @ 250 yds., any kind of good accuracy results with my eyes using the "Rough and Ready" barrel peep, left much to future, deliberate, "hands on" testing with pp (as my new, framed, favorite quote will remind me of). Those once fired cases, measure just pretty much dead center between .446" and .447," inside the case/neck mouth.
I still have some loaded rounds from the batch I shot, so I pulled a bullet to measure. It pulled very easily, and even left the OPW in the neck without losing any powder. Now my buddy duplexed those loads with 1.5 Swiss, and I can't remember what his smokeless duplexing powder was (I've used nothing but black in my B.P.C.R. endeavors so far, so I don't follow what duplexing powders to use). Anyway, I believe the bullet was from an old RCBS .446" mould (not made any more as I understand), weighs 398 grns. and measures dead @ .446." These bullets were lubed with SPG.
I also have one of those Teslong bore scopes, and you can reach most near 36" with the thing. So, going in from the muzzle, the bore looks great all the way through, and the cool thing about this scope, is you can chamber a spent case, and see all the way into the case itself if you want to. Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? To me, it kind of looks that way, but I'm still learning here. Yeah, a chamber cast should/would/will no doubt be a next step for aid in regarding a new mould." Also, the new Jamison cases measure right @ 2.25," as they should, and a fired case from the rifle measures @ 2.24."
I have two Shilohs, a Hartford 45/70 with a 30" sporter oct. barrel, and a LRE in 45/90 with a 32" heavy oct. barrel. I shoot strictly b.p. with greasers in both, and they are wonderfully accurate. So I might be spoiled as to thinking how easy it is to load for these "old tyme" rifles. I hope the pp loadings might/could be the same for this old rifle I have, but I'm ready for the long haul to an accurate pp load for the old roller if need be. All fun, with an old gun.
"The stuff we do to make these guns shoot is a little hands on." What a line.... "Good luck, Bill" Ha!
reinert
Reinert - I'm following along on your progress and results. I just bought an original .44-77 #1 sporting rifle. While waiting for it to arrive I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Please post updates as your journey continues - thanks.
"Using the scope, with a case chambered, the lead looks fairly long with a very gradual taper into the rifling itself. So, would that indicate a possible paper patch chamber? "
That is a paper patch/lead bullet lead. The 45 degree came along with the start of the gilded jackets mostly around the .30-40 Kraig time using the Cordite powder and less smoke powder.
I would guess with your inside cases mouth measuring .446-.447" that chamber was cut with a custom reamer and seeing the long tapered lead. Your good to go finding an accurate load. The .44-77 is a great caliber and it won't take much getting it where you want it.
Find out what the bore twist is and match the bullet to it. if it's 1/19 or slower I would use a bullet around 1.325" long or less with a nose on the blunter side around .250". My two .44-77's, 1/19 and 1/17 twists shoot them well.
Haven't checked in here for a spell, and am letting ya'll know of what I've been doing, and plan on doing currently, with the old roller. Hunting season is upon us here in Big Wyoming. And what I've decided to do 'till winter hits, and the hunt is over, is to use the rcbs .44 370 grn. F.N. greaser bullet during the season when packing the old Remington. Then I plan, in earnest, to proceed with the paper patch project. Again, this old gun won't be any kind of competition piece, just a fun old period rifle to hunt and plink with, and I'm in no hurry to come to any kind of finality with a load. I'm just going to have fun playing with the cool old thing.
I read somewhere that RCBS quit making the .44 mould I recently got from BACO, and I was quite happy to see that they were still available. So I got one. I did get a bunch of rounds made up for the rifle using that bullet, which shot quite well at 50yds. I know that was not any kind of a real test, but I was happy with my first real outing with it, to see what accuracy it just might be capable of. I'm also waiting on a .444 bullet sizer right now, as the rounds did lead the bore more than a little. Since a .439 pin gauge did not fit breech nor muzzle, I figured to try the .444 bullet size to start. The inside case mouths on fire-formed, un-sized cases, measure right @ .446." I'm thinking I might just be able to finger seat a .444 sized greaser in those cases; we'll see. For now, I'm good with a greaser pill for this hunting season, as I really want to take the old beast out on the mountain.
That "rough and ready" sight's aperture is too little for my eyes to use at all (would never work for me in dark timber), and since I didn't want to alter it (yet), I made a "frontier style" elevator out of a copper rivet to raise it high enough to print dead @ 50yds. (the rifle shot more than a foot low using my rest) when using the conventional rear leaf. When that ladder sight is down, and using the regular conventional leaf rear sight (a lot like my Shiloh rear) I can use that rivet elevator, which I made so I can slide it in the aperture disc's setting track, and I can actually lock it in place for an adjustable rear sight elevator. Hope that made some sort of sense. The rivet deal really does look like a "prairie fix" improv as one might have made out of necessity on a hunt. Guess that's just what I did, and it WORKS! Ha! Can't wait to pack that old gun on the hill chasing my cow elk. Whether I'm successful on a kill with it this season really doesn't matter that much. It's just the fact I put an old rifle back on track for what it was designed for. To me, that's as cool as it gets.
BTW, Lead Pot, my rifle does have a 1/19 r.o.t. Good to be back talking "Old Rollers!"
Thanks for the update reinert. I've ordered some pp and grease bullets from BACO to start out with. PP is my preference, but I'll see how it goes.
Mine was factory drilled and tapped for a tang sight. I happened to have a new Marbles sight on the shelf with Remington hole spacing, so I mounted it. Its not the same quality as vintage originals, but it will help my aging eyes.
Keep us posted on your progress.
If that RCBS mould is the .44-370-FN 585 that is a good bullet for the 19 ROT. I used that mould for my Shiloh with the 19 ROT and it worked very good especially for what your plans are for this fine roller as long as the bore riding portion of the bullet is not to tight for the bore diameter so it will seat in the throat.
It will be a little tight for your .446" fired case mouth but a run through a sizing die if needed will work just fine. My tight chambered .44 rifles a .446 will not fit the case mouth but I only shoot the PP. so I can adjust the bullet diameter without a problem.
The on going saga of an old roller...
Though I haven't started down the paper patch trail yet (my winter project after this hunting season), I found a good hunting load for the old rifle using the Brooks mould I got with the gun. I got a nice doe whitetail with it a couple of days ago on a friend's piece of ground that he's allowed me to hunt on. The shot was around 70-75 yds., and the rifle placed the bullet right where I intended it to go. Pretty cool, and the .44 is plenty medicine on a whitetail... Yeah... The bullet passed through the rib cage, and she ran about 50 yds. and piled up. The only meat that got ruined, was the flank meat on the ribs; all else butchered up nicely. I was so pleased with how the rifle shot after my work-up load that I finally found quite accurate. That Brooks bullet weighs right at 490 grns., with a .25" meplat on the tip; a good hunting bullet.
My load was 77 grns. of 1.5 Swiss, compressed about .26" (all this happens inside the neck). I used a .030" Walter's wad over the powder, with a newsprint disc over the wad and under the bullet. I also had a newsprint disc inside the case bottom, over the CCI BR-ll primer. My bullet lube is what I make using 1 cup of beeswax, 1 cup of peanut oil, and a tablespoon of STP oil treatment. This lube has worked very well for me for many years, and I don't have any reason to use anything else. The C.O.A.L. for this rifle and bullet is 3.034," and it's a few thousandths backed off from engaging the lands. No problems shooting a half dozen rounds through it with out any fouling control whatever, and it loads and ejects perfectly set up this way for hunting. It does lead-up pretty good shooting this way, but it's still quite accurate notwithstanding, and that's ok with me. I know how to get the lead out...ha!
Loading for the old rifle is thus, and what I've found works very well for the Brooks, grease grooved bullet: I have a Lee .43 Spanish set of dies, a Lee .43 Mauser set of dies (got these with the rifle), and a .43 Spanish set of C&H dies (a very nice set I got for 60 bucks off of ebay). I also use a Lee .444" bullet sizing die for the lubed, .446" Brooks bullet (as it comes from the mould). Actually, those bullets measure nearer .445" as they come out of the mould, a good thing. I mix my own 20:1 lead/tin alloy for my pot.
Here's the process:
I full length size the fired case with the Lee .43 Spanish die, then neck size the case with the .43 Mauser die, and then use the C&H expander die plug to flare, very slightly, the case mouth. So, you might be thinking, why not use that fine C&H sizing die instead of the Lee die? Because trying all the angles, with all the die pieces I have, what I've just described works the very best for me...nuff said there, and believe me, I've played with everything I've got for the die/round loading system that works for the old roller and me. Again, this is just a hunting rifle, and not a target gun, though it may very well could be with how everything is working out so far!
Now I know this sounds like a lot of monkeying around, but it works very well, indeed. With the case prepped this way, and the bullet sized @ .444," I can finger start the base completely into the case mouth very evenly, and then cupping my hands with the case/bullet in my palms, I squeeze the bullet into the case, seating it against the compressed wads (tight, and snug). I can feel it stops, tightly, against the wads, completely seated, with just the first driving band of the bullet exposed right at the edge of the case mouth. All the greased grooves are completely contained in the case this way, and that's a good thing, too. I can carry rounds in a pocket without any thought of contaminating the lube, another good thing. So, so far, this rifle has been very good to me in developing a good hunting load without any, really, problems so far. It's a good old beastie, and I can see the barrel sights quite nicely besides... I do plan on taking it up the mountain after elk pretty quick here. I do have that trail I want to sit on...
Don't know, but I'll have to ask my bud who owned the gun before me if he ever killed anything with it. Who knows? Maybe the old beast has set in hibernation for many, many years before making meat again just a couple of days ago.
The saga of the old gun continues... what fun!
I don't FL resize any of my 44-77 unless new and won't chamber. After that it's neck size only to reduce the neck for PPB. Occasionally I do shoot a greaser and just flair the case mouth a bit for seating.
I'm curious.....what is the inside neck diameter of your fired cases?
The GG work the best with a light roll crimp just ahead of the first driving band. But you can over do the crimp and pull the case apart. The crimp way is hit or miss.
I also made a simple tool that I welded a ball bearing on a hard rod that was mounted on the tool post. I made a die body that held the case in the lathe chuck and drew that bearing on the inside of the case like the dish spinners do making Largs dishes and vent hoods.
This simple draw die I made in the photo and used the swage press.
It was a fun project but it would be a lot better to get the draw die made with a RCBS die. Not sure what it's called or who makes it, but someone posted a thread on the forum once using it.
That stuff above you do when your bored in the winter after hunting season and before ice fishing :)
Attachment 269889
Hey Yellowhouse, right now I don't have any empty, un-worked cases for the rifle; all my fire-formed stuff is fixed ammo at present, loaded as I posted. If I remember correctly, I believe the inside case neck measures on a fired case right @ .446" (looking at a prior post, #88, I see I did mention that measurement; dead between .446-7").
When running a fired case through the Lee .43 Spanish die full length, I really can't "feel" much going on with the die/case working through the press. And then, using the Mauser die as just set for neck sizing (I size the whole case neck) I can "feel" the press working the brass somewhat, if you kind of know what I'm saying here. Then, after the slight bell/flare of the case mouth, those .444" sized bullets fit really nice with just the hand seating I mentioned. And they shoot really well, and I guess that's the bottom line.
Now, also, after I run a fired case through that same Lee .43 Spanish full length die, I have a Lee .446" expander ball I can use after I bell the case mouth a bit, and I then can hand seat an "as-cast" bullet from the Brooks mould the same way as I do with the .444" sized bullet procedure. That load really works well, too, but it leads the bore up a bit more. I also mentioned earlier that I got an RCBS 44-370-FN mould, but I haven't tried it out yet. For this hunting season, the Brooks mould is working very well, and hopefully through this winter I can get into the PP business. And BTW, a .437" pin gauge just fits the bore on the rifle, breech to muzzle; a .438" will not. It might have been gun laker who mentioned the pin gauges, and also using them for patching practice. I'll do that, got the Seth Cole paper and a template. Then, at some point this winter, I'll make the call to Steve Brooks for a proper PP mould.
Also, FWIW, I got 20 new 44/77 cases from BACO a week ago so I'd have some extras. They were made from 50/110 Starline cases. I also got a call from BACO telling me to send them back, as the rim specs were wrong. I did notice that the block on my rifle didn't quite close all the way as on the Jamison brass I have (good stuff). So I sent them back, and they said they'd send the right ones on to me once the problem was corrected.
Hey ,sounds like you gents are having fun. Just got done loading for a 44-70 roller for a long range match in a couple of weeks and found a good load for my sharps 44/77 with a dual diameter PP, glad the hunt went well.
Ive got a Green mountain barrel on my Shiloh, 430/441 wrapped to .4365 /4465 works very well with 78 grains of 1f OE.
What mold?
I had Tom at Accurate molds make one to try.
I don’t have a PP bullet group to post but here’s a recent GG group I shot with a new RCBS 44-370 mold that I picked up. It’s a good bullet but the nose is to fat and I have to seat it pretty deep to get it chamber. I shot this at 100 yards.
I need to drift my front sight slightly since the tang sight is not windage adjustable.
Attachment 272073
I can't get that bullet to chamber in my 44-77/s, but I think it would make a grand hunting bullet for a greaser.
My original #1 Sporting rifle just came back from C. Sharps with a new 32" #4 profile .44-77 GM barrel. If I can get out of work early today, I'll stop by the range for an initial test firing. I bought 80 rounds of PCI loaded .44-77, mostly to get the Jamison brass. They are loaded with RCBS 44-370 bullets. I have no idea what powder they are loaded with, but I pulled apart 20 of them and dumped the powder. Then reloaded them with 75.5gr of Swiss 1.5F, a .030" card wad, compressed .185". Relubed the RCBS bullets and seated to the crimp groove where they will chamber. I'm more interested in PP than greasers, but this will be a start. I've got some PP bullets from BACO to try after these. I'm not a competition shooter, I just shoot for fun out to 200 yards.
Nice looking rifle and great cartridge choice! I can guarantee the .44-77 is a lot of fun to shoot and especially so with paper patch bullets! Very COOL rifle and cartridge. ENJOY!
It will be interesting to see how the Green Mountain barrel works out. I went with a Krieger which has is 17-twist also. Have you checked the bore and groove diameters on your barrel yet?
Range reports to follow?
Nice rifle!
I stopped at the range on the way home from work to try it out. I shot 10 rounds at 50 yards to get the sights on target, then moved to 100. It was 34 degrees and breezy - my fingers felt like ice. While nothing to rave about, I'm pleased with it for a first outing. Besides one shot I pulled right, it did very well. This was with the RCBS 44-370 bullets. Since this is PP thread, I won't dwell on this bullet. Now I have some brass for the PP bullets.
That is a good start with a great cartridge. Now just keep up the range time and you will cut that X out with those 5 holes. The .44-77 will do that.
I would of liked to have shot that bullet in my 44-77's, but the mould I have and use in the 43 egyptian, the nose is to big and won't fit in the bore of the Shiloh's.
I'm really looking forward to getting back to the range with it. This bullet needs to be fully seated up to the crimp groove to chamber. That is about. 440" inside the case.
The PP bullets I have from BACO are 380gr, but a bit larger than I want at .441". I bought these for the old barrel. I'll have to check my paper supply to see if I have any thin enough to use. I'll probably order some .432", 370gr to try. Ive had good success with bullets patched to bore diameter in my .40-70bn.
I've been having very good results in my .44-77 when I patch my bullet so they are just a touch snug in the bore of my rifle and the seat them .100" to .150" in the case over very lightly compressed Swiss 1 1/2. I have found that the .44-77 is not real fussy about the seating depth, not like my straight cased .45s, and I have even had good results with bore diameter pp bullets seated up to .330" deep.
The nice thing about this is that it gives a lot of flexibility in powder charge without having some sort of wad stack or filler, neither of which have I ever had any luck with.
With the .44-77 I have loaded from 75 to 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and had good to excellent accuracy as long as the compression is kept light to almost none. My current load is with 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 under a .060" LDPE wad lightly compressed and the bullet seated .150" deep and is approaching a 1 MOA 10-shot group at 220 yards. I am looking forward to testing in at greater distances once the warm weather gets, probably another 4 to 5 months. :sad:
DT - when you say "a touch snug in the bore", do you mean just a tad over bore diameter?
Don I used one for my Dutch Beaumont rifle if I still have that mould I will cast a few and send you some. I will look through my fishing tackle boxes I keep my moulds in. It shot well in that rifle.
But I don't know if I sold it with the rifle or not.
Thanks for the offer Kurt, but I don't really want nor need those bullets.
Thanks Don. BACO only has .432" and .438" size. Before ordering a mold. I'd like to try some. Do you know of a source for .434" size bullets of that length? Thanks Steve
It's a fine line between too tight and just snug to feel some resistance when you chamber each round. Paper can vary a little even with each sheet. The method used to wrap your bullets can vary some too so the wrapped bullet can vary when your done. With a bullet that was right on the edge of being too big I've had trouble chambering some. To get around that I push my patched bullets through a sizing die (Lee type) and then they are all uniform.
The bore of my Krieger barrel is just a shade over .438", probably only a couple 10 thousandths of an inch. and my size die makes the bullets .438" and they will push thru the bore with a little pressure, but won't slide thru on their own. When I chamber a round I can feel the bullet as it enters the bore and it is an easy push with my thumb.
So It's best not to get them too tight, but just at or half a thousandth under bore should be pretty good. You might be able to chamber them at 1/2 thousandth over bore, maybe, but you'll eventually have some that won't chamber completely or are a hard push. If you have to push too hard you can actually push the bullet deeper in the case and compress the powder more and changing compression can effect accuracy. I learned that from Kurt after spending a year struggling to get things to shoot with any consistency.
You need to know your bore (land) diameter and get a mold or use paper that will fit your bore with some resistance. I found that by sizing a bullet that patches to just over my bore diameter gave me a much more consistent fit and better accuracy.
With my .44-77 I started with a mold that cast at .4305" and patching with my 9 lb. paper was close but not snug at about .4375". It shot pretty well but I was getting an outlier or two in all my groups, 1 in a 5 shot groups and 1 or 2 in 10 shot groups. At first I figured I was pulling my shots off just a bit. They were only an inch or slightly more out of the group. No matter what I did or how hard I tried I could seem to eliminate those outliers.
I finally decided the bullet was a bit to small as cast so I opened it up to cast at .432" and patch to .439". Then I polished my sizing die out to size the patched bullets to .438 and since then I have not had an outlier at all in several 10 shot groups at 220 yards. I have believed for a long time that fit is very important to accuracy in pp target loads and this rifle has set that in stone for me.
For hunting loads with hunting accuracy you need a looser fit to overcome the fouling problems for follow up shots, but for targets when you have time to wipe the bore clean between shots a snug fit has given the best accuracy no question and that's in 4 different rifles. The following targets are where I'm at with this .44-77 now. It's shooting pretty well!
Attachment 276380
Attachment 276381
Find out what your bore diameter is as close as you can and get a mold and/or paper that will fit YOUR bore and give that a try.
DT - thanks for the detailed description. I see BACO has the .432" 400gr in stock, so I'll order a couple boxes to try out. I have several types of paper to try. GM says their barrel is .438"/.446", but I'll slug it to know for sure. I've had good luck with my Shiloh #3 in .40-70bn, so I'm hoping that in time, this can give me similar results. I've got cataracts in my shooting eye that's making it difficult. But I may get that fixed this summer. Here is my best .40-70 target.
Don - I saw your reply on CASCITY too, thanks for the details.