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I concur with the use of the 223 Rem since he already has proven he can shoot it well. I also suggest the use of the 62 gr Winchester PP as it is a proven hunting bullet. This mulie was taken down with one shot using it out of a 20" barreled .223/5.56 AR with a 9" twist. It was loaded to 2900 fps over AA2460 powder.
Attachment 294041
Winchester 62 gr PP with proper shot placement will be the key
Good luck to him..
I suggest lots of training as you said with reduced deer targets and the PSP rifles. follow that with as many days as you can leading up to deer season with 1 223 shot at 100 yds on paper deer till it becomes habit
Yes, H489 reduces well. Or 2400, several others. Problem I have with starting kids on 22lr or light recoil is they NEVER can get used to anything bigger! Yours has a year to get used to it. Yup, I did shoot 22 shorts as a kid, first rifle was 06 Garand. No problem.
Gun choice for kids? Several yrs ago I went on a kids deer hunt 15 kids, most had 243 as my GKs did. All but one got deer and several got big hogs. They all wanted to hunt. I have 4 G boys. One likes hunting (ar15) and his bro likes shooting (ar10), got 2 others that have shot rifle, pistol and shot gun but it's not their 'thing'. Went to AR with a bunch of kids. 6 yr old shot my BO pistol and 9mm. First time for any of them and there was NO 22lr. Several did well with ar10 factory stuff. Even my 30/30. I came back with about 50# of empty brass. 2 of the kids were gals! Ages were 6 to 15. They all had lots of fun. One teen gal went shopping, guns not her thing. My point - Get them started on bigger stuff, they will like or not. If they have the desire, they will do well. Yes, I had a junk 22 rifle as a 10 yr old. Junk - load rnd and pull back on handle at back of bolt to cock. ***, sear was a notch in the firing pin. Like the crickets! I didn't shoot out my eye but it was worn out, given to me by another kid. Mom (Quaker) didn't know I had it.
no don the black tipped one. https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...tx-fb-50-count it goes around 2300 out of a 16 inch barrel. Its specificaly designed for the bo and expands great and still penetrates. Im not a fan of barnes bullets. Ive just chased to many deer with tiny exit wounds and little to no blood trail do to lack of expansion. I wont even use them anymore in anything under 7mm but that bullet for the bo just plain works.
It is if your hunting wide open spaces or hunting where theres always snow to track, but ive seen many deer hit that just made a couple hundred yards and was lucky to recover them and thats hit perfect behind the shoulder. If you think deer just drop dead you havent shot many deer. I much prefer to much gun to marginal guns. Id rather loose 10lbs of meat then loose a whole deer. Tell me you havent lost one and again ill tell you you havent shot many. You cant kill an animal to dead. Ive killed them with 223s and even 30 carbines but never was impressed. Either they drop or youd better have polished up your tracking skills. When i hunt i look at where im shooting. If its a field that will likely give me shots out to 200-300 yard shots calibers start with the 2506. If its past 300 give me a mag any day of the week. If i could only have one gun for anything from 50 to 400 yards it would be the good old 06. Another thing ill say is picking the least powerful gun for a beginning deer hunter is a mistake. take the time to let them master a real gun. My grandkids all shot 308s or 3006s just fine even at 12 years old. My grandaughter first gun at 14 years old was one of my 280 winchester featherwieghts. Never once heard her complain about it kicking to hard. You have to convince them that yup they jump but they really dont hurt you if there held right. Tell them they kick like hell and there going to run home crying. Guns like the 223 and 300bo will kill. No doubt about it. But there guns for experienced shooters who absolutely know there not going to have buck fever or not be able to place the bullet perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingrj
i use a 165gr ranch dog (173gr actually) with a charge of h4198 that goes 1924fps in a 30-40 krag. i and my son have killed around 20 deer and every one was DRT. the furthest is 173 yards on a doe that my son killed(using a laser range finder). the shortest is around 20+/- yards made by me. every shot was either on the shoulder or behind the shoulder and they did a complete pass thru.
right and left boolits are the 165gr RD. 50 yards the left stopped and was dug up by me
https://i.imgur.com/KpSDgjf.jpg
oh yeah, i'm disabled and hate recoil!!!!!! 1800-1900fps using COWW and a little bit of tin will kill a deer at 200 yards without recoil. i'd go with the 30/30 and 1700-1900fps with the MP312-159 FN or the ranch dog. or there is a 160gr hornady ftx, but i never did it. i think that 1400fps is the absolute minimum for expansion, I THINK!!!!
altho i would not kill a deer with .22 caliber(i have killed one doe with a 22-250ai because i could do it), an experienced guy/gurl could/would anything a .257" caliber. inexperienced guy/gurl would be at least 7mm-08 or a 30-30.
Your 223 is about like my 222Mag and I have no trouble taking Texas Whitetail with 55 gr soft points.
Well deer season is over for this year so he has almost another year to practice shooting and possibly using different rifles. By next season I would let him choose the rifle he is most confident in and shoots the most accurately. If he sticks with the 223 be sure he has the best ammo you can choose and I assume he will have you or another adult in the blind with him to be sure the shot angle and situations is right before he sends one.
Jedman
VYep, I will be right next to him....would not miss a moment like that. Shooting a deer at less than 200 yards is no big deal to me...to a boy...it means a life long memory I want to be part of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedman
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by dverna
This site is awesome, so many deep rabbit holes to dive into and get lost in haha.
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Find a .243 for him . I started both of my boys on .243 with 100 grain sp and 34.5 grains of IMR 4320 . It is fast enough to reliably expand about any 100 gr sp even though it is a minimum load . It is also soft shooting and the most accurate load I have ever used in the many .243 rifles we have owned over the years . Both are grown now and both still hunt with their original .243 rifles and this load .
Many, many years ago my first buck was taken with a .222 Rem. from about 70 yards. It never took a step - DRT. It was at a time when bullets(JSP's) were all supposed to be explosive so, as a teenager, I downloaded that bullet to just over what I now know to be CB velocity (2300 fps). The expansion was perfect when my Dad found it while cutting it up.
Adding a rifle is not something I wish to do....especially a .243. I got rid of the following calibers over the last few years, .243 Win. .243 WSSM, 6mm, .25/06, as I had no practical use for them. If a person can shoot, only two calibers are needed (vs wanted) to handle anything in Michigan, a .223 and .308. Investing $800 in a gun, scope, dies and cases that lack long term usefulness does not make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Southgate
I like Lloyd's recommendation of the Barnes 110 gr bullet at .300 BO velocities. The longest shot the boy will get is 200 yards. Lloyd has harvested more deer than most, and I trust his judgement as it is based on multiple kills. Yes, I trust his judgement even though he is a Yooper...LOL.
I will load some up and see how he does. Recoil with the 110 gr Barnes @ 2400 fps looks about the same as the .243 load you are using (100 gr at 2600 fps) so not gaining anything by spending $800.
If he "gets into it", we will get him a .308 or .30/06 when he gets older as his all-round hunting rifle. Not much on this continent one of those calibers cannot handle.
shot my 30/30 today, 9.5 unique under 145gr PB PC. Did fine, less recoil that factory 243, more like 22lr. 2 2 shot touching groups, inch apart, probably me. 1600 fps. Just a front bag. My 170 RD does about same with more unique. Wild ones were BO pushed too hard & leaded barrel.
Attachment 294104
I was going to suggest the 300 BO as I like mine but have not used it on game. Many good reports with it, though, including yours and the recoil is very low. Easy for a 10yr old to handle as I was using a 12g and 30-30 at that age but every kid is different. Rush one and you will get a flinch that is hard to rectify. At deer camp someone thought it would be funny to hand me a 7mm Weatherby and watch as I got knocked on my backside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
Yep, I will be right next to him....would not miss a moment like that. Shooting a deer at less than 200 yards is no big deal to me...to a boy...it means a life long memory I want to be part of.
My first was at less than 30yrds in a swamp. I had my pants around my knees as I was taking care of personnel needs with my rifle leaned up against a tree when the doe walked out. Almost 50yrs later I can still smell the wet snow, damp wool and balsoms. I remember that 120lb doe weighing a ton as I dragged it a couple of miles back to camp arriving after dark. I was 10 or 12 but no-one thought about coming to look for me yet. Different times I suppose.
Change the AR to a 6.5 Grendel with ease. Excellent round for deer, low recoil, good range and stopping power.
If I remember right, the 300 Blackout was a virtual (identical?) copy of JD Jones 300 Whisper. Cut off & opened 221 fireball. Close enough in any event that Jones did a lot of talking about lawsuits for a while... He also used to be emphatic about not using 223 brass for forming brass for his chambers. More work, the body starts too long...
JD used to 'talk' a lot in the HHI mags about using his Whisper on deer. I seem to remember he liked the 125 Nosler BT. Yes, it's a varmint bullet, but only opens that quick when pushed fast. Acts more reasonable at Whisper / BO speeds.
The Whisper was subsonic w/ 220-240 gr 30s, not subsonic at all with a 125 gr.
People used to use 120 gr Hornady HP in 7x57 on same reasoning (built for varmint in 7 mag), and I used a 87 gr Hornady BTHP in a 6mm-250 improved for a 300 yd antelope one time -- Helen Keller could have followed the blood trail (~ 6" wide for ~ 30 yards) and the heart looked like a kitchen collander when I gutted that one (fragments from a missing 1-1.5" piece of rib went through Lots of internals).
The Nosler BT has a heavy base & lower walls that do a reasonable job of supporting the bullet in expansion, so they actually are an intelligent choice for a special application like this.
JD was a 'colorful' fellow in some ways, but he did know a lot about cartridges & guns, and shot a lot of animals.
This is so much fun to take out- what rifle bullets and load for a young un to use - I’ve killed small Florida and north and South Carolina deer with 55 grain 223 Nosler ballistic tips.and several MI whitetail on crop damage permits Most bang flop- dverna- I hunt in your neck of the woods quite often and I’d agree most deer in the 100-130 range with the chance at a true northern monster walking through.
I’ve been playing with and having amazing accuracy with the RMR 69 grain HP bullet. Rocky Mountain Rifle, they make and sell this projectile. I ve no connection to them but for less than $90 per 500 and usually in stock even in these crazy times - I’ve only shot varmints and frozen old meat so far but very accurate out of bolt and AR platforms and nasty sound channels- not explosive like a varmint bullet but controlled expansion like a partition. Just my 2 cents - although a case can be made for every option mentioned so far.
there lies a big advantage in downloading an 06 or 308 over buying a 223 or some other pop gun. When the kid does grow up hes got a rifle that will handle anything in america.Quote:
Originally Posted by dverna
Lloyd,
The other advantage of downloading a "real" rifle is that it gets the boy into reloading. He will never be dependent on factory ammunition again.
Just as some get excited about harvesting a deer with a homemade cast bullet, a kid will feel the same downing a deer with a cartridge he helped reload. I planned to have him reload a box of the ammunition we were going to use to hunt with after I do the load development work. It enhances the experience and the story he will tell his buddies.