Are you 100% sure about the 1:18 twist rate? The Winchester web site lists the twist rate at 1:15 for their 1885 Traditional Hunter .38-55's.
https://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...al-hunter.html
Chris.
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Are you 100% sure about the 1:18 twist rate? The Winchester web site lists the twist rate at 1:15 for their 1885 Traditional Hunter .38-55's.
https://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...al-hunter.html
Chris.
I’m nearly certain that I checked it myself after also reading it posted in various places. I will check it again to be sure.
The only reason I came across this info was that I just saw a "high grade" traditional hunter in .38-55 at a good price so did some digging on their website just yesterday believe it or not :-)
Chris.
I had never seen that Winchester posting and thought I had read 18 from most places, and thought I confirmed that. Today I ran some patches through and was trying to be as accurate as possible, and I recently got a nice tight fitting cleaning jag too. Of course, it is all a bit of ballpark work with putting marks on the cleaning rod and watching it rotate around. I did keep getting about 15-16”. Towards the last of a half dozen tries, I used a piece of masking tape with a fine pen mark to index off of. I got 15.5” twist pretty reliably. Thanks for that info forcing me to recheck.
I did a little very quick crono work in cold damp weather trying to beat impending drizzle today also. I wanted to try for accuracy too, but it became apparent that my front aperture and my target prevented a good enough sight picture. Also I was trying to beat the rain and get some numbers. RE7 showed promise at 23.5 grains at 1386 FPS, and that big can of Herco I had was giving 1295 with 11.3 grains and burned very clean. Both with 250 grain bullets. I’m thinking I want about 1325 FPS, so this is a baseline. Can’t really crono at my range in nice weather as there will be a few other shooters making it awkward.
Gunlaker, I hope that helps a bit, and you helped me also. These are supposed to be accurate guns, but so far not for me. I have been using a less than ideal powder, as there wasn’t much available. I should also note that I am shooting the short Starline brass while this gun will take the long brass. Actually, I was happy even to get that brass as I think it is all out now and has been out. Just a very pleasant caliber for lead shooting. Good luck if you purchase one.
That faster twist rate is good news because it should give you plenty of mold choices.
In my .38-55's I have almost always shot breech seated bullets which is probably not what your after. In those I'm generally around 18gr of IMR-4227 and a 320 grain tapered Creedmoor bullet cast from a Buffalo Arms rifle. Or a full case of black powder and a breech seated paper patched bullet.
If I was to shoot fixed ammunition I'd be tempted to try the 330gr Lyman Postell bullet ( or a better quality copy of it, maybe a Brooks mold ), assuming the groove diameter is around 0.376" or so. Not that I have experience with that bullet, but that there are a few shooters that I have great respect for that have mentioned it.
I'm still contemplating that Winchester. I don't really need it, but it is tempting :-)
Chris.
Another question Chris, as I research a bit more. I am retired now and have more time, hence getting back to this gun. Your link to Winchester seems to refer to the 2016 guns. Other postings I see lead to 2006 guns also. Both are like mine listed as “limited series traditional hunter”. Mine says BACO import as I’ve seen on the Davison 2006 guns. Those are listed as 18” twist, but as you know, people checked and got 15”. So, my greatest confusion now besides making it shoot well is the question of when it was made. The only number I see on it is that 00033 number. Would you have a clue as to it being a 2006 or 2016 gun. I’m thinking 2006 as someone had it long enough to play with sights and get tired of it and put it up for sale a year ago. Also, what powder do you like with a bit heavier bullet like the 290 in one half of my mold? RL7 looked promising with the 250. Thanks much.
There is a guy that sometimes posts here by the name of TexasMac. He knows a lot about the Miroku built 1885's. If you can find him and send him a p.m. I'm 100% sure he'll be able to figure out when it was built. I have only ever used IMR-4227 when shooting smokeless in the .38-55. I'm mostly a black powder guy but when I got into schuetzen rifles I decided to experiment with smokeless in those rifles. IMR-4227 is excellent for the .32-40 and worked really well for my .38-55's too so I stopped there to be honest.
Do you have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook? In addition to Reloder7 they have loads for a few other common powders like IMR-4198, 5744, IMR-3031.
Chris.
Thanks Chris. I did see many posts on TexasMac. Is he the one with a book also? Yep, I have a Lyman book and several others and see the other powders. I have 5744 and like it, but also less than a pound. If I wasn’t so lazy, I might try black powder, but that sounds like a lot of learning. Perhaps in the future. Thanks, I may look for some 4227 and lots of people like 4198 too. Last I saw 4227 was $44/lb. Oh well.
Just to add to the mix...I bought a Traditional Hunter .38-55 in 1997. I think this was not long after they were introduced. In developing loads, I fired over a thousand rounds of cast bullet handloads using five bullets that weighed between 250 and 340 grains and four powders. I called a Browning design engineer who told me that the twist rate was 1 in 15"; bore and groove dimensions were .373" and .379" in accordance with SAAMI specs. Whether these numbers have remained constant through many years of production, I don't know.
I sized all bullets using a .379" die. Best 100 yard group sizes were around 2" using the tang sight. I'd have to look up the details on best bullets, but the one I've continued with all these years has been the Lyman 270 grain flat nose gas check design (don't remember the number). After concluding my load development work, I mounted a 6X Lyman silhouette scope on the rifle to see how my best loads would do with a scope. Group sizes were about the same as with the tang sight, 2".
Thanks Lotech. The later ones I believe from what I have read were like mine at .368X.376 or .377. My first sizer was .378, but I’ve since got a .379. I am going to concentrate on the 288gr mold I have and sized .379. I would be happy with 2” at 100 yards with 1 1/2” on occasion. It sure is a pleasant shooting gun in any case.
Just an FYI- there's a feature-length article in HANDLOADER magazine #210 (April 2001) with considerable load data worked up in a .38-55 Traditional Hunter. I don't know if this is available from online sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by sd5782
Learning a bit more at a couple cold range sessions. Had the crono out very quickly before it rained. Another sunny day, other shooters were out, so I didn’t get to crono. It was breezy and cold. I had targets at 100, and it took a bit to match my target size and aperture.
Throughout, my AA lighter 250 gr bullet didn’t do too well with what I tried in it. The Lee actually looked promising. Finally near the end I put a post front aperture in and was shooting the 290 gr AA mold. I got 1 1/2” at 100 yds using 11 grains of my Herco that I have a big jug of. No crono, but extrapolating from readings on the 250s it should be right around 1200 FPS. Smiles.
This got me thinking and searching the net when I got home. I’ve seen where folks have mentioned numbers that show a bullet being correct for twist, or the twist needed for your bullet and velocity. Can someone point me to a useful formula. I came across many. Numbers said this bullet was overstabilized, but that seemed better than the other way. 1.07” bullet at 288grs. I guess I am coming up with some results.
TexasMac's Web Site. http://www.texas-mac.com/index.html
So, I got back out to the range with this gun and only shot at 50 yards getting some crono numbers. Of course that isn’t the final word on things, but getting a new gun/mold/powder, I like to have some kind of baseline. Results were with this gun which is probably a fair bit stronger than many older ones. I wasn’t however trying to push things fast, so no advice given here.
I sized bullets to .379 and had minimal case sizing and no crimp. I also seated touching the lands to about .025” out with varying batches. I was aiming for the 1250-1320 FPS velocity range as it seems the black powder guns are perhaps at those velocities and I was hoping to hit silhouettes out to 400 yards.
I did have good results with Herco with extreme spreads for 5-8 shot crono groups being in the 30-50 FPS range, and that was for 6 different load bullet combos. Velocities were in the 1200-1320 range. Max load was 11.3 grains. 11 grains got just over 1300 with 3 different 250 gr bullets. I would have used unique if I had a big jug, but as I have the Herco, I wanted to give it a try.
I also learned a lesson and will have to up my reloading skills when using the more appropriate powders. Loading RL7 at what should be a mild load with about 23 grains gave 1612 FPS with the 250s and 1460 with the heavier 285. Extreme spreads were well over 100fps. I had a similar result with some older 4759 where a moderate 17 grains went 1350 with over 100 FPS spread. It would seem that using the Dacron filler to keep the powder positioned would be in order if I were to try those again. Lesson learned.
I was just posting results in case there are other new guys like me trying these cartridges. I’ve reloaded for 30 years, but 400 yards shooting is a whole lot different than my old Marlin 30-30 at 100 yards with a gas checked bullet. Remember, use your own discretion on loads, especially for older guns. The Lyman 47 does have 30-30 Herco loads.
I just bought a traditional hunter and cant find the number '00033' anywhere on the rifle. Mine is a .38-55 too and it has the case colors, a tang sight, and the hammer stays fully cocked when you close the breech. I didn't get a box with it. What does the number '00033' mean~?Quote:
Originally Posted by bpcrshooter
I am on the same journey as many of you with my recently purchased 38-55 Traditional Hunter. Experimenting with smokeless powder and the Lee 250. I've thought about a heavier bullet but the options seem overwhelming and am still undecided. When I got my rifle I did some searching and found a chart similar to this one: https://www.browning.com/support/dat...885-rifle.html. Unfortunately I did not save it and now I can't find it. Some of the information is the same for both brands apparently. The first 5 numbers are the serial number. I think they started over with the numbers with each different model/year but dont know that for sure. Second two letters are the date of manufacture. It is the same code that Browning uses in the link I provided. The last 3 numbers/letters are the model designation. I think this information is correct, but I won't swear by it. Anxious to hear more about which bullet molds and loads are working best for you.
This has been an interesting thread for me. I recently purchased a Winchester 1885 38-55 that was re-barreled and re-blued. The bore slug measured .374, somewhat small, so I ordered 355grain .376" bullets from Montana Bullet Works.
I have been doing some ladder testing with some different powders, minimum powder charges. The powders that are showing some promise are 4198, 3031 and Reloader 7.
I would like to try some what lighter bullets, the recoil is stiff even with the minimum charges.
Any suggestions?
Back at things again with this Miroku. I have been shooting the Lee 250 recently at the matches I go to as I have been frustrated with my other results. At the last shoot, I noticed that the rear vernier sight that came on this rifle had a peculiarity. I noticed that the base spring that holds the sight in the upright position when shooting has some mechanical play in it. This spring can move fore/aft in it’s base perhaps .020-.030”.
After noticing this, I looked carefully between shots at the orientation of the spring in it’s dovetail as I wiggled the sight several times to settle it into position. This was near the end of a match, but my hit rate went way up, and I had 8 of 10 hits at 400 yards. I may have been undermined all along by a minor problem with my rear sight.
So now, I am inspired to once again try my AA 285 gr bullet. In the meantime, I have acquired 2# of 4227 which the good shooters of this group use. They use heavier bullets in custom rifles with perhaps 18 grains. I think I will try 18 grains, and after lots of researching, I will try 17 grains and a polyester filler of about 1 grain.
I have read that these are accurate guns, so I hope I can get on the right track.
IMR-4227 should be a pretty good choice. I use it in a couple of .38-55's with decent results, using bullets in the 310-320gr range.
Chris.
A new start is in order. I visited my gunsmith, and we were able to fit a new base spring into the vernier sight that came on this gun. The staff now has a very positive solid feel when upright. Previously it was mushy and vague. Being new to this game, I wasn’t too aware of all of this.
I move a bit slow, and it is winter, so it might be awhile before I get some more accuracy testing done. I am cautiously optimistic based on my results after I had the lightbulb moment on the rear sight. All my previous attempts were not totally in vain, as I got some crono results, developed some load techniques, and broke in the trigger with close to 1,000 shots.
As to the suggestion on the 4227; I did get a couple old but sealed cans. I had decent results and had better results using the controversial poly filler. I’ve read that the Miroku is an accurate gun, so perhaps I will find out now. I also wonder if this gun was for sale at the gun store because of poor accuracy which I’m now hoping was just the rear sight.