Great tip! Just tried it with Piglet Coat and it eased sizing SIGNIFICANTLY!
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I've been using more like 1:6 and have had great luck. My HF black doesn't clump at all.
You can't declare a winner until you actually shoot the boolit! :-)
Has anyone tried a clear powder paint? That would eliminate the need to have to get an even pigment coating if there was no pigment.
Do a hammer test to. I'm curious if it will flake or keep with the metal.
The good, the bad, and the ugly... Just not in that order...
Ugly first:
The Colt barrel looked like a sewer pipe after shooting the lighter coating of the HF powder coat.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...psb810fa04.jpg
The M&P 54c got the heavier HF powder coat.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...psa7f2a9cf.jpg
The M&P 40c got the PBTP with a thin coat.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps68441914.jpg
The good is that everything seemed to perform. My poor shooting skills demand that at some point I buy a shooting rest for true accuracy testing so I didn't take pics of the targets. As usual I did my best with the Colt and the two M&P's were at best a fist size group. All testing was done at the seven yard range because I can't shoot the M&P's well enough for grouping at the twenty five yard range and the fifteen yard range is still closed for upgrades. Everything fed from the mags, the guns all ran fine, and there were no troubles.
The bad...
I wanted to clean with the most generic cleaner possible and not use anything fancy or abnormal. My choice was Hoppes #9 as most people have it on their bench already or it's carried in just about every gun store I've ever seen and most sporting goods sections have it in stock. I swabbed the bores with a big of rag and allowed it to set for about half an hour. I made a sammich and ate it so I guess about half an hour of goofing off sammich making and eating.
Colt
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps68c3d421.jpg
45c
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps88cfeac2.jpg
40c
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...psca5d013e.jpg
From some reviews I've read about this I've heard of some that had bores that seemed cleaner than before. Mine looked terrible after shooting and I think I may need to bronze brush them to get them spotless again.
Summary...
I am not declaring this a fail. The next batch of cast bullets will have more coatings applied but thinner each time. The HF is the hardest to work with but it does work. It's the hardest to apply in a thin layer only because the epoxy based powder is the hardest to break down in the thinner. It seems to want to clump and not apply even. The PBTP being polyester breaks down in the thinner with ease and applies very even. The .40SW bullets had two very thin coats and I really should have loaded some of the bullets that the second coat went on a bit thick and I wanted to know first if this was going to work at all. My only negative is that while leading didn't happen, the coating seemed to leave a residue behind. I don't think anyone else has mentioned this. The residue caused no loss of accuracy nor did it cause any failure to feed or other problems. If nothing else I feel like the PBTP powder is far and beyond the winner of the two. I have two more PBTP powders to try and may try them this weekend but I need to cast more boolits!!!
Maximumbob54:
Thanks for the report !
How many rds fired from each gun?
What powder was used? ( Precision and BlackBulletInternational coatings tend to leave residue with fast powder such as N320. Less with W231 . And much less with N350. Seems that the slower the powder, the better, but hurt the recoil impulse)
After loading some more this morning I managed to have 50 each through each of them. All the .45 ACP loads were Unique and the .40 SW used Power Pistol.
Ok so the following is Klass Kote Method two layers 45acp 200 grain HP with Unique Powder being shot from a Sig Sauer Elite Dark P220:
Attachment 77978 6 Inch Target 30 feet. Upper left shot... I wouldn't worry about that little guy.
Attachment 77979 Standard Dirty Bird target 30 feet. 8 bullets all hit the target :)
Attachment 77980 After 75 Rounds
Attachment 77981 One Swipe with the Bore Snake (Cobra)
Due to the firing ranges around here I am unable to retrieve the bullet nor do they have any plink plates around. So what they look like after shooting I cannot tell you.
All I can say is I am amazed! No smoke what so ever I swear and my jaw dropped. I had some one else shoot it and watched for smoke cause I couldn't believe it.
My Vote goes to Klass Kote. I may not try any others at this point in time.
Side note: When sizing them I didn't use JP wax, I ended up spraying a little Lemon Pledge and tumbled them when they were cooled down. Worked like a charm.
Evil - what lead alloy are you using? I think I went harder than I should with a Lyman #2 clone. I plan to use lead with enough tin to fill the mold next time.
evil5826:
So Klass Kote is a 2K (2 part) epoxy?
How long is your oven cure time ?
Have you tried adding HBN powder?
I've got a few hundred rounds and 9mm and .40 PC(laquer thinner) ready to test at the range tomorrow. And I am hoping that the PC will work out because it seems to have a shorter oven time, cheaper,and less clean-up.
epoxy, however is less forgiving in adhesion and can make more sense.
Yep it has HBN powder in it. I would suggest watching Wiederlader's video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiFxAPtx4c0
This is where I received the recipe. 2 parts paint to one part activator and 2.5cc scoop of HBN powder. 100 degree C (212 degrees F) for 25 mins.
I'm just not getting the epoxy coating. The Klass Kote is a one to one epoxy so that's what I'm doing. I've done this last two batches thinned with a bit of lacquer thinner and this batch has the HBN powder added. I baked each coating at 215 for 25 minutes.
I can scrape off the finish with my finger nail:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7c642508.jpg
I'm going back to the powder coat testing as that has yielded better results for me so fat. It's not perfect but it's at least working better than this looks.
SUCCESS!!!!
The test mule this time was a Ruger GP100. Excuse the yet again poor pics of the bore. I can't get the focus just right on the bore as it either wants to go completely out of focus or try really hard to focus on the other end of the bore.
From this:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps602ae71e.jpg
To this:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7eef1783.jpg
This was only after a dozen shots as I didn't feel like loading a bunch of what I thought for sure would be failures and have more lead or muck to clean up again. A wet cotton patch over a jag pulled out the usual black soot. Thirty minutes later I ran a dry patch through and after two passes I think this is the cleanest that bore has been since it was made. These were all 3.4gr of Bullseye under an NOE 358477 plain base boolit.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...roducts_id=194
I initially didn't like this bullet but have grown to like it. Being a HP mold it can be a pain to cast with but once it starts working it drops some very good bullets. Why I can scrape the finish off with my finger nail but it leaves no lead in the bore is a mystery that is beyond me. I sized them all to .358" and will be loading all of them for further range testing in bulk but for now I must swallow my words on powder coat being the early winner. Maybe the trick was indeed to switch to a softer alloy.
Granted this is a powder puff of a standard pressure .38 Special but still this is a step in the right direction. As there was no traditional grease/alox/wax based lube on the lead there was also next to no smoke produced by these loads. I'm going to load up all that I cast last night and shoot them in one sitting to ensure I don't end up with build up and then it's time for higher pressure magnum testing and testing in other calibers.
Once again.... TBC....
What did u use powder or kk
little tip for using lacquer thinner. It doesn't matter how much you use, I put enough in to cover the boolits, sprinkle the PC in, dump boolits in and shake, swirl, shake, swirl until the lacquer thinner turns clear, and shake just little more for good measure making sure the bullets are coated evenly. Then I pour off the lacquer thinner and dump the boolits onto the wire mesh. Let dry there, then separate. You can reuse the lacquer thinner you poured off. I use 2 buckets, and pour back and forth until my batch of bullets are coated. The trick is the right amount of powder for the number of bullets. With PBTP polyester TGIC, I use 1/2 tsp/100 150 grain boolits. I like the results and the last batch I did 600 bullets in 1hr 20min. I need a bigger oven.
All that typing and I forgot to say it was KK. http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps296b095f.gif
KK has worked the best for me also. Thanks for sharing your test guy's.
Another Klass Kote shoot this morning with over three hundred rounds expended around three guns: Ruger GP100, S&W M10-6 HB, and S&W M&P9c.
Bullseye was the powder used this time in all the loads. The revolvers were fed 158gr boolits from a Lee mold and the auto was fed 124gr boolits from another Lee mold. Two baked coats of KK with HBN in the second coating. I didn't bother this time with pics across the board but the M10 had the worst build up.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps17007968.jpg
But with minimal cleaning with some Hoppes #9 soaked and then swabbed they all came out looking like the M&P barrel.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1239b676.jpg
I'm still not ready to give up on the powder coat because it's so much easier to apply but I have to admit the Klass Kote is working even if it's more of a pain to apply, clean up, and the HBN isn't so cheap.
Have you tried without the HBN? Most (or at least some) of us are guessing its not necessary (based on PC and HI-TEK not needing an additional lube).
I will say that I have not used HBN with my KK coated boolits and I have not had any problems in my 9mm. I just coated some of mine today using the 2:1 mixture with about 1 part lacquer thinner added and I think it may work better than 1:1 mix. Will know more later this week. When I get to the range.
From threads, lacquer thinner seems to work better than acetone with powder coating tumble Piglet method and it seems cutting the Klass Kote for 2-3 coats seems to work well as well.
To thin it out just a bit. it is just a reducer. Thin coats are better than thick coats.
So far, powder coat is the only coating he has not been able to scratch off with his finger nail. But he will try a 2:1 epoxy and thin that mix 1:1 this evening.
He also did more PBTP with a third coat last night that will be loaded up tonight with some WSF I think this time. Maybe Power Pistol. Maybe not.
I'm casting up some fresh right now to try this tonight. I just ran a batch of the cheap HF red through the oven with a lot less powder this time and they look soooooo much better with no warty bubbly cancer look to them. The biggest lure so far to powder coating is it's so much easier and seems to work just as well. And wow does this epoxy stuff stink. I'm doing this outside in front of a fan to blow the stink away and I still feel like I should be wearing scuba gear. As this is a vs. thread I will include the same pic I posted in the powder coat thread as well:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6b3f4c8c.jpg
I think they look much better this time and will be running another coat and another baking tonight still.
I do NOT like the clear PBTP powder coat:
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9575d264.jpg
Ignoring the fact that I didn't use a new clean bucket so it picked up some of the residue of the red powder coat I've been using...
As soon as the thinner was added the white powder went clear. I couldn't see the paint at all. I added the boolits and shook them for a while and have no idea of the coverage on them. I guess I will do a second and maybe third coat just to be sure but I don't like this at all as it's impossible to tell if you have it on enough or if it's even. No likey. I may mix it in with the red and see what that does. Not sure.
I loaded up the HF powder coated for testing this weekend:
4.7gr Win WSF
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...ps316ad7dc.jpg
And I finally tried the KK in a 2:1 with a 1:1 with thinner and no HBN for some low velocity Trail Boss .30-30 load tests later but I need to free up some brass first.
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/...psd49eb432.jpg
They coated very evenly but I always leave a mess in the bucket which makes the bucket non usable for the next batch. I've tried wiping it clean with some thinner on rags and that gets some of it but not enough. I either need to find a source of cheap paper buckets for one time use only or I'm going to stop making these. They may work but they are a mess to make. The PBTP is the cleanest and very easy to apply in several thin layers. The HF seems to be much more temperature unfriendly of the two powders and will clump as the thinner evaporates making a mess. However, if you can get the right amount of powder to bullets and not one drop too much thinner then one coat of HF powder looks like it coats pretty even and once baked feels plenty strong with nothing breaking down during sizing. If nothing else all this testing has been a fun diversion and I really think it may even find its way into my process for bulk plinking ammo. At best I'm still going to keep trying to tweak both the PBTP and HF to see if I can start counting how many boolits to add exactly how much of each powder to add and how much thinner to use. The low cost of the HF is really a lure to keep trying to get that one right but the PBTP isn't that much more so I will continue to try it as well. I may finally say the HF is too much of a bother compared to how easy the PBTP is as that is the current feeling but man is that HF powder cheap...
Left over kk well peel off from the bucket. For the love of god try 2:1 kk with hbn minus thinner next batch. I'll be making 454 casull's soon with that exact mixture. Guarantee it works.
I didn't see the "minus the thinner" part. I guess I can try that on the other half of that batch. I'm not doubting it works at all as the KK coating was the first one to really work at all. It's just the mess left behind. The paint in my bucket won't peel off at all.
Your right, mine peeled of from the mixing cup not the bucket.
How important do you all feel the HBN is to the KK coating? Im confused on what its suppose to do if its mixed in the the epoxy.
The video shows use of 5 micron HBN for reduction of friction. His bullets size right down with little effort.