You never know. Your rifle may be the one that uses the same tuner settings at both 50 and 100.
Each rifle makes it's own rules, as does every lot of ammunition.
All you need to do is investigate, as you have been doing, to find out.
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You never know. Your rifle may be the one that uses the same tuner settings at both 50 and 100.
Each rifle makes it's own rules, as does every lot of ammunition.
All you need to do is investigate, as you have been doing, to find out.
Charlie,
I appreciate your patience and trying to help me understand.
What I see in those two shot groups leaves me "empty". There is not enough that "jumps out at me". Many of the "good" groups are different than the "bad" groups by one bullet width. At 50 yards that is the same as misjudging the wind by 2 mph. That speaks to my level of ability. I cannot judge the wind that well. I would have no confidence in what the target is trying to tell me. That is NOT a problem with the method but a problem with ME. I would always wonder if the group is telling me something or I screwed up...again.
I would not have selected the .034 tuner setting based on an average of three groups. That is not enough...at least given my ability to shoot. I need more groups to know if there is a real deference.
After seeing your work, I realized .22 BR was not for me. I do not have the skill set or the pocket book.
But you inspired me to try to try to shoot .22 PCP pellets into less than 1" at 50 yards. It was a practical goal. NSB is getting .5" and that will be my next goal. I am averaging .70" (over 88 groups) using premium pellets so I am getting close to NSB...but no cigar. I have moments of brilliance when I get down to .25"!!! But I know it is mostly luck...LOL. At least I am having fun.
I wish I could spend some time shooting your rifle just to see how bad I am. I am betting you will make your .4" goal. And that is one hell of an accomplishment!
tazman...Don... At our age it's a blessing to have something like this that we can think about & discuss, tinker with & physically do...more than that, I feel blessed by GOD to have the privilege of escaping this crazy, upside down screwed up world for a few hours each week and enter a state of blissful content as I tinker with my hobby.
Whether .22, CF or PCP the thing that matters is we always have some kind of goal to achieve by keeping the brain muscle flexed & staying physically active...best of it all, we have friends here to talk about it with and they listen like it really mattered.
Excellent! Just excellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by OS OK
I've enjoyed reading, and learning from this thread. Although I don't "tune" my .22 rifles I do shoot out to 100 yards and I have found that certain types of ammunition give me better results than others.
best
atr
ps...El Dorado used to be my old hunting area.
Well . . . It's been a crazy winter with record snowfall out here in the land of 'Fruits & Nuts'.
Now it is even crazier with all the rainfall from these atmospheric rivers coming in from the Pacific.
...but...
I've managed a few semi-warm days of near decent weather to get out and shoot. Truth is, Harry Tobin & myself have both been 'Jonesing' for some trigger time. Spring is almost officially here and chances for range time are improving.
Here's the first day out for 2023, it felt good to get some trigger time but this target is of no use for evaluating the wind & offsets here on my range. I can't just note at the top of the target a general wind condition & speed and expect to have meaningful data in the spots below. I'm convinced now that I have to note the wind on each spot...outdoors here in the mountains the wind is too shifty minute to minute...
https://i.imgur.com/GaMO29I.jpg
We left off last year with the goal of finding a tuner setting for 100 yards for this new lot of .22lr Eley Match. We pretty much agreed, thanks to Don that the tuner setting for 50 yards and 100 yards are not likely to be the same.
I thought that I would actually 'tune' at 100 yards instead of 50 yards, then look at only the vertical displacement between settings to locate the 'possible NODE' tuner setting for 100 yards.
Based on this card and the vertical displacement in multiple tuner settings...I am starting off at .035" for the 100 yard bench...
https://i.imgur.com/rBkbs7u.jpg
I know...these groups look much like shotgun patterns compared to looking at our 50 yard groups, especially those 50 yd. groups that are done indoor or outside with a minimum or zero wind status!
That is one of the considerations I have to think about since the wind can greatly affect the little subsonic 40 grain projectile at this distance...it can move your POI a considerable distance from the POA.
At 50 yards & full value from 3 or 9...that POI shifts 3/8". That's huge...that's larger than the groups we aspire to shoot.
At 100 yards & full value...that POI shifts by 1 3/8".
Trying to evaluate these groups gets to be over in the realm of 'guessing'...I keep a pad & pencil on the bench to write down as best as I can recall the various wind angles & speeds on each group shot...this will later give me some clue as to how much error there may be in that group from wind alone. It's tough to determine but it has to be done, I think that this, like anything else gets easier as I gain experience & insight.
Based on the speed of this new lot of Eley Match (1080 fps in my rifle) this chart gives me an expected offset for the various distances...
https://i.imgur.com/Idrhjoa.jpg
This is what I can expect in general direction from the POA and POI from the various wind directions...all I have to add is the actual offsets from the chart above.
Simple huh? I wish I could convince myself of that fact.
https://i.imgur.com/LWZb0m7.jpg
Well...it's a new year & new shooting season & I've had the winter to mull on all this data. One of these days I'll have an actual '0 wind' for an hour or so and I'll find out what my 'scope's zero setting' will be...until then I don't really know exactly?
On the 17 & 18'th this month I got out for a short session, the weather looked like it might be good for a day of trigger time but it wasn't.
I tried & I got my butt kicked real good...but...I still had a good time trying!
https://i.imgur.com/3cB2vd0h.jpg
These are partial cards placed above each other, you can see where I quit early...I was trying to conserve on targets & spots...
This catches me up on this thread for 2023's season, it shouldn't be much longer, maybe middle of April and the weather will warm & the winds may be more stable?
Even though I have much to learn, my goal is to shoot 5 each - 5 shot groups that will average .5" or less and to have all the shots in each group actually cut that 3/4" green spot....meaning that I can actually hit what I aim at with .5 MOA accuracy @ 100 yards. This is the project for this summer!
For me, this is a tough goal, I believe the rifle/ammo combo & bench & accessories will do it but it remains to be seen whether or not I will be the weak link in this chain?
OS OK, why does the wind drift chart that you have attached look as it does?
Shouldn't it be a mirror image split about the 12-6 axis?
If the impact is centered on reticle crosshair w/ still conditions, for a given (i.e. zero) range, wouldn't physics tell you:
Headwind will add drag, and cause increase in drop. Tailwind will decrease drag and decrease drop. If so (explain if you believe not) Drop is not shown correctly in upper right 1/4 image (angled headwind raises impact), nor lower left 1/4 image (angled tailwind lowers impact).
Also, seems like the magnitude of effect is in error.
As the vector angle of a head or tailwind increases from 0° from CL toward 90° from CL, the increase / decrease in drag becomes less pronounced. It is just vector forces.
Like a plane landing: relative ground speed can be reduced at takeoff & landing for headwind, and has to be increased for tailwind. Rudder position is influenced by crosswind. Less vector component of head/tailwind, less ground speed adjustment.
The reason that ideally aircraft carriers turn into the wind for take off & landing, no?
I get that line of sight vs line of travel can fiddle w/ expectations when ranges are changed, but at a fixed range of initial (no wind) zero, I think the graphic has an error.
Left - right wind effect seems OK directionally, and magnitude.
I think the difference between bullets and airplanes and the way they fly is that bullets have 'spin' and that creates a thrust vector, the Bernoulli Effect...(did that sound official? :bigsmyl2:)Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnipEaterDown
https://i.imgur.com/xtCDRh0h.jpg
Here's another explanation...
https://i.imgur.com/3hWxLOOh.jpg
That should help explain why the chart is not a mirror to itself left side to right. I believe the first chart in the above post is also for just a right handed rifling and for a .22lr subsonic projectile.
The 6 & 12 POI's being where they are I think, is due to the tailwind and headwind on a lightweigh 40 grain subsonic RHT projectile. I can't swear by those two plots for POI's @ 6 & 12 because I don't have a 'calm-no wind zero' for my windage yet...I will believe what I actually see when that happens.
https://i.imgur.com/Bkv45bQh.jpg
Another thing this latter chart maker doesn't mention is speed of the projectile...the actual measured amount of deflection depends on the arc of the projectile also and it's time of flight.
Centerfire specialists take into consideration more factors than we lowly .22lr Benchrest shooters do at 50 yards.
This all could be heavy physics or something but I like just relying on data I will collect on my range since just about all ranges will make your projectile respond differently (more or less magnitude of deflection) since some ranges have walls & trees that limit the wind's ability to influence the projectile during it's entire flight bench to butts.
Here on my range I have hills & trees and my house influencing the wind along with being on a ridgeback...I can't rely on these charts for the exact amount of deflection on my 50 or 100 yard benches.
https://i.imgur.com/rDJaAD4h.jpg
I would like to end up with a chart for my range that resembles this one here...taking into consideration all I mentioned that makes my range unique to these charts.
I would like my first chart to be for 3 to 5 MPH since I see this wind speed all too often during the summer.
https://i.imgur.com/tfOeLR1h.jpg
My experience comes from 50 yard ranges and doesn't necessarily cross over well to 100 yard shooting.
I found I needed to only worry about left and right deflection more than up and down. The wind would push the bullet far more horizontally than it would vertically. This seems to be supported by your diagrams as well.
I would get no more than a bullet width deflection vertically but might get two to three times that horizontally.
The only time this didn't work was when some tall obstruction forced the wind up and over it to then drop onto the range from above(such as shooting in a valley or lanes cut through tall, thick trees). Those vertical winds were very unpredictable because they always had a horizontal component, usually with a swirl in there somewhere.
When you get beyond fifty yards, things change. I don't have anything like enough experience at longer ranges to know what to expect.
Well, there ya go, teaching me things that aren't considered on first look really do matter... :)
I think the spin gets forgotten about often, and I should have thought about that. Maybe the magnitude was just so big on the results of 22 bullet path I just didn't think about what I read 20 years ago. I remember now seeing these considerations on navel guns, and the mechanical computers they used, and recognizing how those WWII battleships really were a wonder of the age.
I have to read this through better, and look in the A Square manual that had a section on such things.
It's looking more & more like Spring has sprung around the Sierras...temps. in the 60's now and the rain & snow is getting sparce.
Finally, it's shooting weather...been waiting a long time for this.
Looks like I am a bit rusty on this one here...checking a few tuner settings I've used on the 50 yard bench to see how they'll do here at 100.
https://i.imgur.com/Mg3poXMl.jpg
And...here it's a little better, not much but gimm'e a few sessions and I think I can improve?
https://i.imgur.com/PKEjAVDl.jpg
Those are 3/4" green spots and here's a few coins to show scale....
https://i.imgur.com/sVc1e6el.jpg
Had another nice day to shoot except for the 40ºƒ part...can't use that as an excuse though, I just couldn't 'out-maneuver' the wind...but I'm gaining on it.
The 5 shot group averages are up around .200", I think that's mainly me struggling with the wind, i'm trying to be more patient and just wait for the wind to switch back but...I don't, I look at the wind chart real quick, figure the Kentucky windage for a new POA...apply that & send it...away from the group!
Aw SPIT! :bigsmyl2:
https://i.imgur.com/FyA8hfXl.jpg
I may revisit that .033" tuner setting up top there again, it looks promising, I just didn't give it a good chance to show well.
I found a good deal on Amazon when I went to reorder more 3/4" green stickers (usually $9.00/1000) in single rolls.
These rolls came as an assortment, a total of 10,000 spots in 10 colors...that's a pretty good deal for $19.99 with no shipping costs added.
https://i.imgur.com/VOW097Ml.jpg
Had a pretty good day for finding that elusive 'scope zero' for 100 yards, it wasn't an absolute 'dead, no-wind' day but it was close.
https://i.imgur.com/OdcxV8vl.jpg
I am pretty good at taking notes and logging data but...I'm the worst for keeping it all organized. I used to keep a small spiral notebook for each of my precision rifles, log load data and test results but...sometimes I put something like a notebook in a safe place and I never see it again. I don't know how that happens but I have quit putting things in 'safe places' because I've lost other things like specialty tools that way & parts and such.
Now I just take a picture and it automatically goes into the photo album when I upload from the iPhone...problem solved.
https://i.imgur.com/B8TKN7il.jpg
I had an interesting day yesterday...I took levels out to the bench to verify that my setup is all inline with level...
as it was, the front rest was leaning right.
https://i.imgur.com/qTgl6aul.jpg
Next place the rifle on the rest & rear bag and see what is level now...depending on where I placed the level, I got opposite results.
That big flat on the scope ring cap is an easy place to put the level but it is a bad choice...
https://i.imgur.com/feWSDR9l.jpg
The scope is not plumb...
https://i.imgur.com/e9oBNt9l.jpg
I loosened the scope ring caps and adjusted the scope clockwise a tad and they both agree now...the scope, the rest & the bench are all level...
https://i.imgur.com/65gLWI9m.jpg . https://i.imgur.com/ENNAaOtm.jpg
That seemed to put a new 'level' of confidence in my spirit and I proceeded on to get my butt whipped again! The wind...I'm thinking, "One of these days I am going to get it right!"
Till then...I'll just keep posting these train wrecks.
https://i.imgur.com/z7eTIwql.jpg
Target 15, I shot at the center of the spot so I could verify how far the wind was moving my POI.
All the rest of the spots, I am using Kentucky windage to offset my POA.
Charlie, you are very hard on yourself. I think your groups are excellent.
But I guess it shows what a mediocre trigger man I am. Enjoying your journey.
Thanks Don...but...Quote:
Originally Posted by dverna
I don't think of this journey as being hard on me or me being hard on me. I have a rifle and ammo combo that's shown me that it's a 1/2 MOA rifle...IF...I can do my part.
I pretty much have my part down like a machine as far as the sending part goes.
What is kicking my butt is 'Mastering the Wind'...I guess I am a little anxious about that part...but...I fully intend to even if it takes me all summer! :bigsmyl2:
It's little quests like this that keep us Old'Farts 'rising & shining' in our Golden Years.
Harry Tobin & I have seen too many times now where Eley Ammo has to be re-struck to get ignition. Seems like this subject comes up often in our phone conversations.
Harry shoots Eley Contact quite a bit & I use the Eley Match...I can understand a lower quality ammo $5/box having a few FTF's per brick but Harry is beside himself with this situation...I am having as many as 7 or so in 500 rounds $15.50/box that have to be struck twice! This is unacceptable Mr. ELEY!
Yesterday we decided that we should look into this business of ignition a bit closer and see what is actually happening. (Late last year we both replaced our striker springs and had a close look at the striker face, all was well then but the FTF's were starting to happen all too often.)
When the topic of FTF's come up in this forum it seems like the first thing people want to blame is the rifle somehow...like wrong headspace, weak striker springs, inconsistent strikes & etc...it goes on and on even to the point of arguing about it.
So...it's time to start investigating first hand...here's what the primer compound looks like in the bottom of a 22lr case, one picture with a bore cam & the 2'nd & 3'rd pictures with an iPhone...
https://i.imgur.com/li8kayrm.jpg ... https://i.imgur.com/53PqmFPm.jpg ... https://i.imgur.com/IqC8CV1m.jpg
It is the same Eley Match case & priming material but the borescope & iPhone put a different color on it...guess it's the light source?
When I have a FTF, I remove the round from the chamber and re-insert it into the magazine with the FTF strike at 6:00...my CZ452 strikes at 12:00.
Is there any difference in the striker indents in these rims?
https://i.imgur.com/ShMy34Ul.jpg
Harry Tobin says..."You need to cut those FTF's in half and have a look inside." Here's the first one I cut (butchered ) as we looked a little closer.
https://i.imgur.com/Ii3lg9Pl.jpg
Harry suggested using a different wheel on the Dremel and try to cut through the FTF primer strike to see whether it is actually flattening that slot in the rim where the primer compound is suppose to be...
https://i.imgur.com/DXTjqQkl.jpg
No doubt about it...the striker in my CZ is hitting with enough authority to crush that rim slot.
As a reference, I'll re-post these pages from Bill Calfee's book... The Art of Rimfire Accuracy ...Harry and I have used Bill's advise in this matter.
https://i.imgur.com/gog50LGm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JOSMVAEh.jpg ... https://i.imgur.com/WJMGRYch.jpg
"Have any of you had these problems with any particular brand of ammo? What did you determine..was it ammo or was it your rifle?"
<2mph and a steady direction is not a '0' wind day...but...it sure is better than anything I've seen so far this year!
https://i.imgur.com/BBt6oJVl.jpg
It is looking like the .036" tuner setting is 'ever so slightly' winning out over the .037" setting but don't let this average deceive you as it has me for so long.
The slightest movement of air at 100 yards...even that movement you only can feel by the hairs on the back of your neck bristling, can move that POI by as much as 1/4".
A couple posts up, I mentioned 'FTF's' with Eley Ammo. This morning I get a message from a member over on RimfireCenral..
https://i.imgur.com/RG4zMlFh.jpg
This is not good information on a couple angles...For one, I have 6 bricks of Eley Match in stock, 4 of which are a different lot that hasn't been tested & tuned yet!
This is not good...but, guess I'll just cross my fingers and hope for the best as my wife will probably have Kittens if I tell her I'd like to order another $600 worth of ammo! That remedy is out of the question!
That ASIDE & looking for more cheerful news...I had an 'almost no-wind' day...not quite a perfect scope setting day but dang close, I think I am now within a click or two of having that done and I can move on to doping the wind.
https://i.imgur.com/W8oAv4rl.jpg
That news about Eley saddens me greatly as Eley is the only readily available match ammo for me around here.
I still have a brick left from two years ago since I haven't been shooting much for the last year. I guess I won't be ordering new for a while.
Time to do some research on other ammo brands.