Building my .44WCF/.44-40 die setup

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Back in the day they were not called pistol or rifle primers.
Attachment 305932

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So according to this chart - no difference in SIZE across pistol and rifle calibers, only softer or harder metal, and change of compound from black to smokeless powder. ??


Primer pocket dimensions and tolerances

Heres the SAAMI specs

Pocket Type........Depth Min...Depth Max...Diameter Min...Diameter Max
Pocket Dimensions
Large Rifle ...........0.1250.......0.1320.......0.2085....... 0.2100
Large Pistol...........0.1170......0.1230........0.2085. ......0.2100

Primer dimensions
Large Rifle...........0.1230.......0.1360........0.2105. .......0.2130
Large Pistol..........0.1150.......0.1260........0.2100. .......0.2120

some things to note
Pocket diameter = same
Pocket depth = .008 - .010 different (LR deeper)
Primer Diameter = LP .005 - .010 smaller than LR
Primer depth = Large Rifle .008 - .010 Taller than Large Pistol

The difference in primer height / pocket depth was what I got with my calipers when I measured this.
The 44/40 cases I measured would have covered the period from 1955 - 60 Dominion manufacture to 2015 Starline

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Originally Posted by indian joe

So according to this chart - no difference in SIZE across pistol and rifle calibers, only softer or harder metal, and change of compound from black to smokeless powder. ??


Primer pocket dimensions and tolerances

Heres the SAAMI specs
Pocket Dimensions
Pocket Type........Depth Min...Depth Max...Diameter Min...Diameter Max

Large Rifle ...........0.1250.......0.1320.......0.2085....... 0.2100
Large Pistol...........0.1170......0.1230.......0.2085.. ......0.2100

Primer dimensions
Large Rifle...........0.1230.......0.1360........0.2105. .......0.2130
Large Pistol..........0.1150.......0.1260........0.2100. .......0.2120

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Winchester Primers Timeline

Large Pistol vs Large Rifle

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Winchester Primers Timeline

Large Pistol vs Large Rifle

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Ok I'll go do it again and report back - that result is not what I got first time over - maybe my measuring technique is suspect, but if so why did I get same measure for rifle only cases and I got different measure (as should be) for the designated pistol cases ??? ---this says that winchester and Starline are now departed from SAAMI specs for this case ? why have the specs if manufacturers dont follow ?????

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Originally Posted by indian joe

Ok I'll go do it again and report back - that result is not what I got first time over - maybe my measuring technique is suspect, but if so why did I get same measure for rifle only cases and I got different measure (as should be) for the designated pistol cases ??? ---this says that winchester and Starline are now departed from SAAMI specs for this case ? why have the specs if manufacturers dont follow ?????

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I don't know but this has been the same for me for the past 10 years. I have another 150 cases coming in from Starline, at some point, and I will check again.

I have been checking my 44-40 cases (Starline) against the COW, (i have both old and the newest versions), and i agree, it dosen't matter,"why", it's all we can get. It's become a one size fit's all world. (Dang am I whinning?) So, the real reason all my shots don't go in the same hole, is my brass is out of SAAMI? (Really, now that's funny).

need more coffee, Hootmix.

I’m speculating here but with the advent of cowboy action shooting, it may be that the manufacturers have lost the semantics of rifle vs. revolver and are assuming everyone is shooting a low velocity pistol round in a rifle.

For my part, I have always used pistol primers in the 44-40, simply because they worked without fail.

The late John & now Jack, have been my guide's (and Joe & a few others), for the 44-40, "nuf said". And yes LP primers.

Mak'n a new pot, Hootmix.

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Originally Posted by Hootmix

The late John & now Jack, have been my guide's (and Joe & a few others), for the 44-40, "nuf said". And yes LP primers.

Mak'n a new pot, Hootmix.

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I think I heard someone once say the the WLP's seated too deep in their Starline cases while the WLR fit well. For me, all my WLR's stick out too far. However, I do use them but only load three at a time while hunting. (currently shooting Beavers). I still grouped well enough to put meat on the table at 250 yards if I was hungry enough to have to shoot that far.

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

I think I heard someone once say the the WLP's seated too deep in their Starline cases while the WLR fit well. For me, all my WLR's stick out too far. However, I do use them but only load three at a time while hunting. (currently shooting Beavers). I still grouped well enough to put meat on the table at 250 yards if I was hungry enough to have to shoot that far.

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ok pictures first
left is a 44/40 with pistol primer right is a 38/40 with rifle primer.
Attachment 306008

Attachment 306009

now the measure I dug out some new RP brass (dont know how old but unfired) measure is right on 0.120 - 0.121 - so thats the fat end of pistol?
winchester 45/70 measure (fired maybe three times) for comparison sake right on 0.125 - skinny end of rifle.
another comparison federal large rifle primer fresh from the box 0.125 - 0.127
large pistol 0.117 - 0.119

old 44/40 brass getting that 0.124 -0.126 -- old is old at my place, time races by and what I think is not old (including me) has got more miles on it than I care to admit.
Q 1 - for years I cleaned primer pockets with a sharp little screwdriver blade with a tapered end on it (so it would get right in the corners) would that be capable of deepening those pockets removing 4 - 5 thou while I wasnt paying attention ? the 44/40 has been shot a lot compared to other stuff in my rack - most of my brass in circulation would be twenty years plus in age
Q2 - from the pictures (the 38/40 is quite recent brass - dont have any of it unloaded to measure) have I been leaning too hard on these primers ? I dont use the compound press - do all my primer seating in a super simplex straight action. Been doing this for 50 years - never had one blow in the press - dont have problems with faulty ignition - almost exclusively federal primers (I like federal cuz I can slacken the mainspring tension on my lever guns and get acceptable trigger without messing up ignition)

Something looks to have shifted here - me ? the brass ? manufacturers ? not important to the original question which was that this thing (44/40) was originally a rifle cartridge and been adapted to pistol use over time - thats not changed.

Back again - I found a batch of RP 44/40 brass that consistently measures rifle depth 0.126 - 0.127 - this stuff looks different in that the headstamp is impressed more deeply and clearer - how old? I have no idea! but obviously some of what got me off track on this deal. Also a bag of starline 44/40 running consistent 0.122 - 0.123

The call-out "Pistol Primers" doesn't seem to come into play until the 1970's as far as being printed in catalogs. They were always labeled as just numbers on the primer boxes. However, during the early 1980's, the letters "WLP" etc were printed on the primer boxes and the numbers omitted.

The Large Primers were adapted to the 44-40 (replacing the use of the small primers) starting in the late 1920's with the introduction of the "Staynless" primers.
The 44-40/38-40 really started getting kicked in the face by the mid 1970's. In the catalogs both were still offered as a rifle and revolver cartridge. In the rifle section, the 38-40 and 44-40 were the only rifle cartridges that used the "7-111" primers noted by Winchester-Western and shortly into the 1980's, as "WLP".

With the reduced power loads over the years, and use of what was then called "pistol primers", the "-40 duos" were inadvertently pushed into the "Pistol Caliber" group once again but this time by the younger generation of shooters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

The call-out "Pistol Primers" doesn't seem to come into play until the 1970's as far as being printed in catalogs. They were always labeled as just numbers on the primer boxes. However, during the early 1980's, the letters "WLP" etc were printed on the primer boxes and the numbers omitted.

The Large Primers were adapted to the 44-40 (replacing the use of the small primers) starting in the late 1920's with the introduction of the "Staynless" primers.
The 44-40/38-40 really started getting kicked in the face by the mid 1970's. In the catalogs both were still offered as a rifle and revolver cartridge. In the rifle section, the 38-40 and 44-40 were the only rifle cartridges that used the "7-111" primers noted by Winchester-Western and shortly into the 1980's, as "WLP".

With the reduced power loads over the years, and use of what was then called "pistol primers", the "-40 duos" were inadvertently pushed into the "Pistol Caliber" group once again but this time by the younger generation of shooters.

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I dunno Bryan - I've been loading rifle primers in em all my adult life, proly keep doin it so long as it looks to work ok - always been conscious of (not having) proud primers - If I find brass thats too short in the pocket it will get bored out to take shotgun primers - have slabs of those here looking for a home (left by my Dad when he passed) -

I was pretty stubborn on this and while I might have been right at some point it appears thats not so with this centuries components. :oops:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

I dunno Bryan - I've been loading rifle primers in em all my adult life, proly keep doin it so long as it looks to work ok - always been conscious of (not having) proud primers - If I find brass thats too short in the pocket it will get bored out to take shotgun primers - have slabs of those here looking for a home (left by my Dad when he passed) -

I was pretty stubborn on this and while I might have been right at some point it appears thats not so with this centuries components. :oops:

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During the 1950's and by 1959, this was Winchester's classification of primers.

I never did complete the list to include all K-Code numbers and shotgun primers.

K4009P: 8 1/2-120 - Large Rifle
K4xxxP: 6 1/2-116 - Small Rifle
K4001P: 1 1/2-108 - Small (Regular) Pistol
K4003P: 7-111 - Large Regular Pistol
K4xxxP: 1 1/2M-108 - Small (Magnum) Pistol
K4xxxP: 7M-111F - Large (Magnum) Pistol

During the 1940's they looked like this;

K1608P - No. 108
K1611P - No. 111 (for the 44-40)
K1615P - No. 115
K1616P - No. 116
K1630P - No. 120

up to the blue boxes they look like this

No. WLP
No. WLR
No. WLRM
No. W209

The new red and black boxes I think dropped the "No.", now just "WLP" etc.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...powder-primers

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Originally Posted by john.k

You might be interested to know Winchester 44-40 cases were also made to take pistol primers ......I got several packets of 50 thrown in when I bought my 94 in 44-40 in 1973.

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I have a few of those. WRA CO 44WCF headstamp, balloon head, small primer pocket.

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I tried out my new RCBS Cowboy 44-40 dies today. I didn't need to lube the shells at all to resize. Fell easily into the chambers of my Colt SAA.