Which methodology should I use?

I know I'll probably get a lot of different opinions on this, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

According to Lee's reloading book, one should cast their bullets to a certain hardness, for a given load and the pressure it produces. So that the bullet is soft enough to obturate and grab the rifeling for accuracy and seal off the gasses, but that it's also not too soft so that the gasses cut the bullet and/or the bullet skips the rifleing, leading the barrel and reducing accuracy both ways.

Using wheel weights, I get about 12bhn air cooled, and 21 bhn water quenched, measured using lees hardness tester.

So according to their pressure/bhn chart, 21bhn is technically not hard enough for most .357mag, 9mm, .40S&W loads.

Yet I also hear this advice quite often: "air cooled wheel weights for most pistol loads, and water quenched wheel weights for rifle loads"

Which advice do I follow? I haven't done enough testing either way to be able to conclude for myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason867

I know I'll probably get a lot of different opinions on this, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

---

Why would you get varried opinion if there was only one "true" way? If there is more than one way, how can a single option cover all situations?

I water drop everything. If it is wet, it is not hot.

Range scrap is used for most pistol boolits, and 50/50, WW/Range scrap for rifle. I thought my rifle boolits may have been a bit soft, but they perform well with no leading up to 1850. Usually less.

Shiloh

I voted for "Do some testing and figure it out." I only load for 357 mag revolver and 38 special revolver and have heat treated, water dropped, gas checked, and sized all over the place.

I would say that in handguns (I don't do rifles) the Lee recommendations on accuracy and pressure don't match my results. Last night I shot some 98% lead and 2% tin full house rounds and didn't get any leading (33,000PSI and BHN of 8, way over Lee max). I wasn't happy with the groups (they weren't the worst, but I'm looking for tight groups), but it was part of the testing process.

To date, anything harder than 11-12 doesn't seem to be useful in 357 magnum, the same with gas checks. That's for full house big loads with 2400. That means WW air cooled are all that's helpful, and less than that is better. Accuracy decreases with harder lead.

For HP-38 target loads, the softer they get and the bigger they get the smaller the groups are. That's what works in my revolver anyway. Matching throat size, .002 over groove, all that stuff hasn't worked out. Fat and soft rules! For target shooting, no hunting here. I load and shoot for accuracy and fun. BHN of 8 and .360 diameter works great! Oh, loaded long too... Most of my loads are over what Lee calls the max for a given alloy, sometimes quite a bit over.

Sorry for the rant, but this is fun. Folks may disagree saying this won't work in their gun. They can't say what works in my gun! LOL

This is a thread.........which will probably have many faces.

I voted for "Do some testing of both methods and figure it out myself..." as the Lee way is not absolute and neither is anything else for that mater. There is the general rule of thumb for reloading one particular cartridge to the next, but it really comes down to what each firearm ends up liking. The only truth to shooting cast is there is no one way of doing it and that is the beauty in it all

I voted for air cool pistol and water drop rifle. But I am just concidering it to be someplace to start because you have to start somewhere. If you are happy with the results fine or if you think you can or may do better that try the other ways too.

Ordinarily, I'd say to use air-cooled ww for everything but, you use the word 'magnum' and the velocity goes up. The other two probably won't shoot 100 meters, the 357 magnum will. I'd say water drop or use linotype for the magnum, and the other two could use ww (heat treated or not).

I know that both my nines will shoot air cooled wheelweight without leading. A 40 S&W, I don't own.

I started out thinking that Veral/Lee rule, keep pressure at 90% of deformation for a given BHN, was THE TRUTH. I carefully blended alloys to achieve just the right BHN, and water dropped when necessary to get the really high BHN readings.

It worked to keep a rifle from leading, but not finding accuracy. In another rifle the same thing, and then I found I could shoot much softer boolits then THE RULE allowed, with both no leading and good accuracy. I slugged both bores and found out I was undersized, but still managed to get some good accuracy by raising pressures and letting obturation fill the bore.

So, its not just that I'm figuring "it" out for myself, each rifle/mold/alloy/sizing combination needs to be worked out, and indeed, you can get different things to work in the same gun, and other things that "should work" won't.

In the end the only rule is the holes in the target.

In four decades of reloading and how ever many years I've been casting, I've found there is only one absolute in this hobby:

Be safe.

After that, there are more variables than you can imagine. Find what works best for you and your gun(s) and the way you shoot. Books are a guide to get you to an average (read: mediocrity) and are a good starting place when you have nothing else to go on.

:coffee:

I have found that the Lee rule works fairly well for me with rifle loads as a general principle and not an exact calculation; that being the harness of boolit one should use is more a factor of pressure then a factor of velocity. The exact calculation put forth by Lee I'm not nearly so convinced of as I used to be since I have found plain base rifle loads that operate at 30K-40K pressure levels using a large charge of slow burning powder that produces a stable burn at reduced pressures (soft launch loading technique) and produce pole splitting accuracy while leave minimal or no leading behind when the alloy used should only be able to handle 25K range pressure levels according to the Lee formula.

For pistols, especially revolvers all rules (except for safety) are merely suggestions and the only way to find out is to try it. I will say that all my 9mm guns do like hard water quenched alloy sized as big as will fit in the chamber (0.359” sizing die that the boolits just slip through and are lubed but not sized down at all from “as cast” for all but a couple which won’t chamber that big and I have to use a 0.357” sizing die for them). I've had no luck with using soft alloys or boolit diameters that are merely a thousandth of an inch over bore size and find that at least two or three thousands over bore size and lead as hard as I would use for rifle loads is necessary to obtain both accuracy and no or minimal leading for those darn 9mm guns.

Your mileage may vary or course.

As much as I respect the Lee family for their fantastic tools and support of the hobby, what I have read in the manual doens't line up with my experience. In fact, I really don't care for the manual much and the writers opinions. I don't believe in absolutes in this game. I think each gun is a law unto itself in the end and there are mostly generalities and few hard and fast rules in this game. Variables among alloy, size, reaction of an alloy to pressure, and of course fit, abound. So I'm in the try it and see camp. I know plain old ACWW GC designs can go over 2K in some rifles with zero problems and good grouping. In others break 14-1500 fps and all goes kaput! Often WQ or other HT works. OFTEN, not always. So that tells me there is more to this than simple Bhn readings.

You know, I think sometimes we think we've got most of the answers figured out. I'm all about fit. But in a few years I might have to eat crow when someone else figures out a way around worrying about fit. I know this much- whatever that answer is, it won't be as simple as Bhn numbers!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret4207

As much as I respect the Lee family for their fantastic tools and support of the hobby, what I have read in the manual doens't line up with my experience. In fact, I really don't care for the manual much and the writers opinions. I don't believe in absolutes in this game. I think each gun is a law unto itself in the end and there are mostly generalities and few hard and fast rules in this game. Variables among alloy, size, reaction of an alloy to pressure, and of course fit, abound. So I'm in the try it and see camp. I know plain old ACWW GC designs can go over 2K in some rifles with zero problems and good grouping. In others break 14-1500 fps and all goes kaput! Often WQ or other HT works. OFTEN, not always. So that tells me there is more to this than simple Bhn readings.

You know, I think sometimes we think we've got most of the answers figured out. I'm all about fit. But in a few years I might have to eat crow when someone else figures out a way around worrying about fit. I know this much- whatever that answer is, it won't be as simple as Bhn numbers!

---

This is how I feel about it.
The biggest thing that gripes me is when I see only "It doesn't lead" without any confirmation of accuracy. Is this all that counts?
You need both, stop reading and find what gives you the best accuracy and also no lead in the bore.
It sounds so sad when I say you need to do some work for yourself but it is true. Cast is a great hobby and takes a lot of thinking and work, nothing just falls in place for anyone.
Enjoy the challenge and don't look for easy book answers, there are none.

Like some people say the best part of the trip was getting there. Think of it as a long experiment where every thing tried is positive for you and that particular gun, either you are positive it works or positive it did not work, and keep records. I think the best way is have a book for each gun and write down things besides your load like what target size and distance, temperature, humidity and light conditions as examples.

Wow! Sorry but I do this for fun. I haven't had any leading issues since I dumped my glocks and my Marlin 1895 with micro-groove has never leaded and lord knows I've tried. I use LLA / JPW for tumble lubing and a Star with BAC for the "other" way. Star is messy and more trouble than it's worth to me. My favorite rifles for cast are my new Savage in 308 and my K31s using 284 Winchester brass necked up to 30 cal. All of them do just fine with cast ACWW. I don't load barn burners but average around 1800fps in 30 cal and 1600 or so in 45/70.

I use straight clip on ACWWs for EVERYTHING!

I pretty much agree with bret except that there are "absolutes" and there are "rules". It is the application of those absolutes and rules that varies and makes each load with various firearms seem different. I also disagree with Veral/Lee rule that says psi and BHN are directly related in ratio. My tests actually having measured psi, velocity and BHN show there are other factors that influence the results more than simple BHN vs psi leads many to believe.

Larry Gibson

I think the lee method is not a bad introduction but there are, as has been said, many other factors involved. After boolit fit there is alloy, casting ability, GC material, twist rate, powder characteristics, boolit design, barrel condition and the list goes on. There are no hard and fast rules with so many variables but certain guidelines are not a bad place for the novice to start from without holding to it as gospel.

Von Gruff.

I appreciate everyone's opinions and experience on here. I kinda knew I'd have to experiment to find out what works for me, but having some discussion on it kinda helped clear my head and motivated me to find out.

Thanks!