Years ago Hodgon bought Winchester powder Company. They now own Accurate & RamLine powder Companies. Does this constitute a monopoly?
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Years ago Hodgon bought Winchester powder Company. They now own Accurate & RamLine powder Companies. Does this constitute a monopoly?
It would be more my preference if they produced more powder than buying up more powder companies.
I agree completely!!Quote:
Originally Posted by elmacgyver0
Hodgdon doesn't make their own powders, they real monopoly is they all buy from Australian manufacturer ADI. Go to ADI website and look at their powder equivalents chart.
Shows that many of the powders sold by the major powder companies are all the same ADI powder. Within 5% it does note, allowing for some small recipe differences in the powder made for each brand. E.G H4198 and I4198 which are close to the same but do perform a touch different, and can be replaced with Reloader 7
Useful link if you have a powder you can't find and want to know what is an equivalent you can use that may be available.
http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/powder-equivalents/
Now ammo is essentially a monopoly with all the acquisitions and mergers.
Duplicate post
I believe some of the IMR powders continue to be made in Canada, in the Province of Quebec. 700X comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat
The increase in pricing for powders has gone through the roof up here, although some pull back in powder pricing has been seen recently but still, pricing appears high across all brands along with primers.
Take Care
Bob
Per Chris Hodgdon a couple of years ago at least one of their powder suppliers is in Canada. If I remember correctly to name was "Dominion" or something similar?Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbank
https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...states.241267/
St, Marks Florida. It's the onetime Olin Corp plant, now part of General Dynamics. It makes double-based ball powders only or those (Such as Hodgdon Hybrid 100V and some Alliant types) using the same slurry / distillation based process.
All Winchester and Hodgdon ball / 'spherical' grades are supplied by St. Marks as are nearly all propellants used in US military small arms ammo, the US government having decided way back in the 1950s with 7.62 adoption that this type would be the norm, sniper and special purpose ammo aside.
Ramshot / Accurate ball powder comes from PB Clermont in Belgium. Hodgdon extruded grades and IMR-8208 XBR from Thales / ADI in Mulwala, NSW, Australia. Other than 8208 XBR, IMR extruded rifle powders are also made by a General Dynamics Corp owned plant in Valleyfield, Ontario, Canada. (Hodgdon owns the IMR brand name and marketing rights IIRC.) This plant also makes some Accurate brand extruded numbers. All Vihtavuori powders come from the town of that name in Finland.
Alliant 'Reloder' extruded grades were all made by Bofors in Sweden until a few years ago, but some recent additions such as Re17 and Re33 are sourced from Nitrochemie Wimmins AG in Switzerland. Alliant has also started using spherical grades from St. Marks.
Health & Safety and the EPA is the primary reason that all extruded powders are made outside of the USA. Ball types manufacture uses non-inflammable / explosive slurries with material piped between processes until the little balls are distilled out at a late stage for chemical treatments and grading. This method also allows old out of date propellants to be recycled alongside fresh ingredients reducing costs.
Extruded powders start by dissolving cellulose in powerful acids, a dangerous exothermic process and whose products are immediately highly explosive and inflammable, then further inherently dangerous processes and solvents are used to convert 'guncotton' into usable propellants. Many of the materials used are corrosive and toxic, likewise creating waste and pollution issues that have to be dealt with nowadays, not just dumped into waste ground or rivers as would once have been done.
All this makes the manufacture of this type inherently riskier which in this day and age is also much more expensive. A guy in the handloading powder business stated years ago that the EPA hadn't banned extruded powder manufacture, but its regulations were so onerous that any such produced in the country, (USA), would be so expensive, nobody would buy them.
Extruded propellants are widely manufactured in Europe still, although many older plants have closed over the last 20-30 years. None at all are manufactured in the USA since the DuPont Corporation firstly moved propellant production to Canada then later sold that operation. No doubt, the American military's decision to switch to ball propellants was a major influence here as military demand is the largest single component of many explosive manufacturers' business. Nevertheless, the US market for sporting ammunition and her industry's manufacturing outputs probably exceeds all of that of Europe combined.
Yes, I know Europe has high safety and environmental standards - the UK has not manufactured propellants since the ICI Nobel plant in Scotland closed in the late 1980s or early 1990s. However, there is a big difference between having exacting regulations and having such that are so onerous that there might as well be a complete ban which is what my contacts in the American handloading powders business have told me about the EPA's attitudes to manufacturing this (extruded) form.
One area where the EC is becoming more restrictive than the US is fast appearing though. That is the EC REACH program which is steadily evaluating every chemical used and identifying risks to human health, then legally forcing their replacements with safer alternatives.
It is known that some traditional chemical burning rate deterrents and other such behavior modifiers long used in small arms propellants are deemed to be in the dangerous category, so many long established powders are now living on borrowed time. A little commented on element of the blurb about the new IMR Enduron powders is that they are 'environmentally friendly'. It actually goes a bit further than that as many existing powders will not be allowed to be sold in EC countries in a very few years time, nor will ammunition loaded with them. General Dynamics / IMR is getting itself geared up to this challenge with its new products. Once the new regulations start to apply no older long established IMR grades will be compliant, that also applying to many other makes. I don't know how this affects many existing European manufacturers other than Nitrochemie whose powders are already compliant, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this doesn't sound the death knell for some as there is substantially more capacity than demand for powders, given the lack of wartime requirements, but western governments have long since stopped worrying about that.
So far at any rate, there seems to be no US equivalent to REACH in this field, so many older propellants will continue to be sold in this market, likewise loaded ammunition.
Since Hodgdon sold Goex, all they have now is that new type of fad smokeless powder which we all know will fall out of fashion before long. So no monopoly.
M-Tec that was a very informative post on powders.
On prices last time I looked some had almost doubled from price stickers on some of my previous purchases.
I have seen a drop in primers but mostly confined to the more available small pistol and small rifle. Large rifle in particular is still very high. I blame all the folks shooting at each other in different parts of the world for sucking up the supply for large rifle. Which I think is close enough to large pistol that it might be made on same assembly line. Seeing more foreign brands but that supply does seem to be helping bring prices down. I wonder how consolidated that market is in the US?
I think with consolidation ammo manufacture is getting pretty close to a monopoly. On the plus side as the military switches to its new caliber maybe there will be a bunch of surplus military 223 and 308/7.62 come to market cheap. Before I get too old to hold up a rifle. One can hope.
If this needs to be moved to the pit please do so. I cannot address your comments without some political overtones.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat
The 5.56 and 7.62x51 will still be the bulk of the rounds used in the military. Couple that with the lefts war on Lake City small arms ammo sale to civilians' chances are slim to none unless the R's have a Reagan style landslide in the WH, House and Senate. Even then the Dems are going for bans on the state level.
20 States Lobby Biden Admin To Stop Civilian Sales of Lake City 5.56×45 Ammo
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...-5-56x45-ammo/
Why Calls from Attorneys General to Ban Lake City Ammo Sales to Civilians Are Deeply Misguided!
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/w...ply-misguided/
States Urge White House to End Civilian Sales of Military-Grade AR-15 Ammo
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/st...mo/ar-AA1mQHbG
Attorney General James Leads Multistate Coalition to Stop Sales of Military-Grade Ammunition Used in Mass Shootings
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2024...military-grade
And here we have the opposition.
28 Pro-Freedom Attorneys General Push Back Against Stopping Civilian Sales of Surplus Lake City 5.56 Ammo
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/28...ity-5-56-ammo/
Obama tried to ban the sale of once fired brass. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cartridge-case/
maybe repeat of the gunpowder trust of early 1900's