Anyone used SAR USA shotgun ammo

I was not able to find #4 buckshot loads locally. And in my email came across an ad for SAR USA 12 ga 27 #4 pellet load at what seems like a good price of $85 plus ship, tax, insurance for 200 rounds. It is made in Turkey. I do not have any #4 buck pellets on hand and my mold is for #000 so it is simpler to just order it time wise. The S&B brand that I had on hand was like an ~18 pellet load of #4.

So I was not familiar with the SAR USA and wonder if anyone here has used it. The vendor is true shot that has mostly good reviews.

One of the guys that shoots coyotes from a helicopter uses that as S&B has been difficult to get recently. Seems effective enough!

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Is the SAR load you're looking at 2 3/4" or 3"?

Turkey seems to be making good stuff.

DG

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Is the SAR load you're looking at 2 3/4" or 3"?

Turkey seems to be making good stuff.

DG

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SAR USA - 12 Gauge - #4 Buck Shot - 2.75" - 27 Pellet - 200 × 1

It is actually more ammo than I was looking for, but the price was good and I will have enough ammo to pattern more than one gun and I may be buying a remington tac13 in the future. Many I know like to use number #4 in the PGO shockwave pattern guns.

Interesting choice (s).

I recently bought two of the 12 Ga. marine coat pumps from CDNN, made in Turkey. They had an odd feature of a large coil spring around the magazine tube that is supposed to assist in the forward movement of the pump. Man...! It makes the pump difficult to compress, and when it goes forward it can pull the forestock right out of your hand. I had them both removed in about 15 minutes, and now they work very nicely as a standard pump. What were they thinking?

I removed the butt pads in order to install a stretchy ammo caddy on each buttstock, as they weren't stretchy enough to just stretch over the butt and had to go on from the pistol grip end, and was a little disappointed in the stocks' construction as being thick black plastic. I guess I just don't like plastic, and I knew that's what they were, but feeling the thickness of the stocks walls between the fingers was....er....uh...nothing like walnut! Anyway, all back together, and can't complain at all for $150 each. One now lives in each of my vehicles and the marine coat and a protective sock has pretty much eased my corrosion worries.

So next was ammo, and I alternated with No.1 buck and slugs. 4 in the mag, 5 in the caddy. Bought all Winchester brand from Midway. I think your choice of No. 4 is interesting, because years ago I reasoned, perhaps faultily, that No. 1 was a better choice than 00 because the pellets are still .30 cal. and there's more of them. A couple of sizes down to No. 4 says somewhat the same thing for more pellets, but has smaller size pellets. Perhaps our anticipated uses are different, or environmental circumstances different. A close up charge of even 8 shot will prove fatal, but as the distance and spread of the pattern increases it would seem that the likelihood of an effective hit lessens. I do know that I've fired many a round of 00 magnum (2 2/4" sneakily loaded with 13 pellets) out of police 870 shotguns at 25 yds. and often seen the absence of a fatal hit on the target's kill zone, hence the thought that more is better. (Is that why I'm a .45 ACP man?) I've seen some very accurate slug shooting out to 100 yds. at which point I'd rather have a rifle, but you've got to use what you happen to have, and if that is a shotgun then inside the 100 yd. zone larger shot would seem a better choice. Maybe Mr. Buchanan can share his knowledge in this area.

DG

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Interesting choice (s).

I recently bought two of the 12 Ga. marine coat pumps from CDNN, made in Turkey. They had an odd feature of a large coil spring around the magazine tube that is supposed to assist in the forward movement of the pump. Man...! It makes the pump difficult to compress, and when it goes forward it can pull the forestock right out of your hand. I had them both removed in about 15 minutes, and now they work very nicely as a standard pump. What were they thinking?

I removed the butt pads in order to install a stretchy ammo caddy on each buttstock, as they weren't stretchy enough to just stretch over the butt and had to go on from the pistol grip end, and was a little disappointed in the stocks' construction as being thick black plastic. I guess I just don't like plastic, and I knew that's what they were, but feeling the thickness of the stocks walls between the fingers was....er....uh...nothing like walnut! Anyway, all back together, and can't complain at all for $150 each. One now lives in each of my vehicles and the marine coat and a protective sock has pretty much eased my corrosion worries.

So next was ammo, and I alternated with No.1 buck and slugs. 4 in the mag, 5 in the caddy. Bought all Winchester brand from Midway. I think your choice of No. 4 is interesting, because years ago I reasoned, perhaps faultily, that No. 1 was a better choice than 00 because the pellets are still .30 cal. and there's more of them. A couple of sizes down to No. 4 says somewhat the same thing for more pellets, but has smaller size pellets. Perhaps our anticipated uses are different, or environmental circumstances different. A close up charge of even 8 shot will prove fatal, but as the distance and spread of the pattern increases it would seem that the likelihood of an effective hit lessens. I do know that I've fired many a round of 00 magnum (2 2/4" sneakily loaded with 13 pellets) out of police 870 shotguns at 25 yds. and often seen the absence of a fatal hit on the target's kill zone, hence the thought that more is better. (Is that why I'm a .45 ACP man?) I've seen some very accurate slug shooting out to 100 yds. at which point I'd rather have a rifle, but you've got to use what you happen to have, and if that is a shotgun then inside the 100 yd. zone larger shot would seem a better choice. Maybe Mr. Buchanan can share his knowledge in this area.

DG

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It is well reasoned out that Number #1 ballistically is the best choice for shooting men relative to velocity & terminal ballistics and there is no doubt about that on my part.
I am surrounded by houses on some areas.
Arrow my house and red lines indicate residences.
Most of the residents have privacy fences. My hope if I have to fire in self defense that after a hundred yards and hitting a privacy fence that number # 4 buckshot would have a much lesser potential to cause collateral damage. I prefer triple # 000 buck normally.
This is for use with a pump action long barrel shotgun fitted with light and laser. If I get into it with a black bear the ranges will be short and could be contact shots if the dogs are trying drive off or the bear. If the bear is leaving I would not shoot at it. Of course a slug would be better.
Tac13 and Tac14
It is a very close range weapon and the broadest pattern is desirable. At close range number # 4 is deadly. It is what a lot of people chose for those guns, but in low recoil loads.
Attachment 321620

DG and others: I would direct you to my thread "What I did to my Shotguns" which covers lots of this information and more. Hopefully it will be a "Sticky" Soon so we can reference it more often?

First Buckshot of any kind is a 50 yard proposition at best. And that is with a Vang Comped Barrel. I have several barrels done this way and they all shoot Regular 00 Buckshot into 7" at 25 yards. This means it will still be viable at 50 yards but not much farther. You really need to be shooting slugs beyond about 30 yards because a Cylinder Bore Barrel is going to pattern 9 pellets at 30" which is kind of sparse for any effective use on just about anything.

There is a Drill that you need to learn: It is called the "Select Slug Drill." This is where you have buckshot or birdshot loaded in your gun and a Target Presents itself beyond 50 yards. You want to take the shot but know that what is loaded in the gun ain't gonna work, so you must load a Slug Round into the magazine and then Cycle the Action. On a Pump that means running the slide, or on a S/A Racking the Bolt. You should be able to do this maneuver in less than 5 seconds including making the shot. It actually takes a little practice and being able to manipulate the rounds is the biggest part of the transition.(Covered in detail in my thread)

The Vang Comp system consists of Lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3" then Back Boring the Barrel to .740-.745. The first 2" of the reamer are tapered back down to .730, so you essentially have an IC/Mod Choke working at teh muzzle. There is also 62ea. 1/16" holes on either side of the Front Sight which "Bleed Off Pressure" behind the payload so that it is not being Crammed into the choke under full Pressure. It is essentially "Coasting thru the Choke," and all of these features work together to reduce "Perceived Recoil." And It really does work!!! www.vangcomp.com

I can shoot my guns all day long with nothing more than a Tee Shirt between me and the gun.

The other alternative for increasing range on Buckshot loads is "Federal Flight Control Ammo" (if you can find it?) it has been proven to extend the range by as much as 100%.

What they were thinking about with the big spring, was what is known as "Riding the Recoil." When the hammer drops, the Bolt Release is disengaged and the bolt is free to move to the rear. Luckily the payload is gone in Milli-Seconds. but the only thing holding the bolt closed is your hand on the Fore End.

If you have rearward pressure on the slide you can get ahead of the game and the bolt will open much faster, and then running it closed and chucking up the next round happens much faster. Also in the event that your magazine is empty and you have to Single Load the gun thru the Ejection Port, it opens the action much faster and ejects the spent round with more authority, then you put another round into the Ejection Port by going under the receiver and then slide your support hand forward to close the action and fire again Repeat as fast as you can. I just did 26 rounds in a 3 gun shotgun stage in 129 seconds with 20 single loads. It was much faster than trying to reload the magazine 5 times. Average Split time was 4.96 seconds per shot, and I was getting pretty tired by about shot #20! Last shot was a Slug thru a 3" hole at 30 yards and I made that one too!

Hope this helps some but there is a lot to operating a Combat Shotgun Effectively and it all takes practice after you are shown what to do. All my Training came from Front Sight, which unfortunately is now gone, and the new owners don't have a clue!

Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barnetmill

It is well reasoned out that Number #1 ballistically is the best choice for shooting men relative to velocity & terminal ballistics and there is no doubt about that on my part.
I am surrounded by houses on some areas.
Arrow my house and red lines indicate residences.
Most of the residents have privacy fences. My hope if I have to fire in self defense that after a hundred yards and hitting a privacy fence that number # 4 buckshot would have a much lesser potential to cause collateral damage. I prefer triple # 000 buck normally.
This is for use with a pump action long barrel shotgun fitted with light and laser. If I get into it with a black bear the ranges will be short and could be contact shots if the dogs are trying drive off or the bear. If the bear is leaving I would not shoot at it. Of course a slug would be better.
Tac13 and Tac14
It is a very close range weapon and the broadest pattern is desirable. At close range number # 4 is deadly. It is what a lot of people chose for those guns, but in low recoil loads.
Attachment 321620

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My great-uncle shot most of his deer with a 12 ga double and swore #1 buck was the only thing to use - #4 was too small and anything bigger than #1 didn’t carry enough pellets, although he used to let me use 0B when we couldn’t find #1. These were all 2-3/4”, Super-X buffered shells.

Thanks for the response and information, Mr. Buchanan. I'll have to get one of the Turk shotguns out and verify the bolt being unlocked when the trigger is pulled--surprising information to learn after a now-retired gunsmithing career. The guns are made by Huglu and except for the plastic and spring are mechanically sound. They also offer the same gun without the spring and a wood stock, vent rib barrel--a sporting version, so apparently considered unnecessary for sportsmen!

DG

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Originally Posted by HWooldridge

My great-uncle shot most of his deer with a 12 ga double and swore #1 buck was the only thing to use - #4 was too small and anything bigger than #1 didn’t carry enough pellets, although he used to let me use 0B when we couldn’t find #1. These were all 2-3/4”, Super-X buffered shells.

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At one time the US military issued number #4 buck and used a duck bill muzzle device to spread the pattern in a horizontal spread. A particular pellet's effectiveness is likely governed by the intended target. larger deer and bigger men may required a larger pellet to reach the vitals. There must be a study on that somewhere. But I have never read of it. I know locally the double ought buck loads are more common in the stores and so many people do concur on it being most effective. I seldom see any number #1 and I may have a 5 round box of it somewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

DG and others: I would direct you to my thread "What I did to my Shotguns" which covers lots of this information and more. Hopefully it will be a "Sticky" Soon so we can reference it more often?

First Buckshot of any kind is a 50 yard proposition at best. And that is with a Vang Comped Barrel. I have several barrels done this way and they all shoot Regular 00 Buckshot into 7" at 25 yards. This means it will still be viable at 50 yards but not much farther. You really need to be shooting slugs beyond about 30 yards because a Cylinder Bore Barrel is going to pattern 9 pellets at 30" which is kind of sparse for any effective use on just about anything.

There is a Drill that you need to learn: It is called the "Select Slug Drill." This is where you have buckshot or birdshot loaded in your gun and a Target Presents itself beyond 50 yards. You want to take the shot but know that what is loaded in the gun ain't gonna work, so you must load a Slug Round into the magazine and then Cycle the Action. On a Pump that means running the slide, or on a S/A Racking the Bolt. You should be able to do this maneuver in less than 5 seconds including making the shot. It actually takes a little practice and being able to manipulate the rounds is the biggest part of the transition.(Covered in detail in my thread)

The Vang Comp system consists of Lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3" then Back Boring the Barrel to .740-.745. The first 2" of the reamer are tapered back down to .730, so you essentially have an IC/Mod Choke working at teh muzzle. There is also 62ea. 1/16" holes on either side of the Front Sight which "Bleed Off Pressure" behind the payload so that it is not being Crammed into the choke under full Pressure. It is essentially "Coasting thru the Choke," and all of these features work together to reduce "Perceived Recoil." And It really does work!!! www.vangcomp.com

I can shoot my guns all day long with nothing more than a Tee Shirt between me and the gun.

The other alternative for increasing range on Buckshot loads is "Federal Flight Control Ammo" (if you can find it?) it has been proven to extend the range by as much as 100%.

What they were thinking about with the big spring, was what is known as "Riding the Recoil." When the hammer drops, the Bolt Release is disengaged and the bolt is free to move to the rear. Luckily the payload is gone in Milli-Seconds. but the only thing holding the bolt closed is your hand on the Fore End.

If you have rearward pressure on the slide you can get ahead of the game and the bolt will open much faster, and then running it closed and chucking up the next round happens much faster. Also in the event that your magazine is empty and you have to Single Load the gun thru the Ejection Port, it opens the action much faster and ejects the spent round with more authority, then you put another round into the Ejection Port by going under the receiver and then slide your support hand forward to close the action and fire again Repeat as fast as you can. I just did 26 rounds in a 3 gun shotgun stage in 129 seconds with 20 single loads. It was much faster than trying to reload the magazine 5 times. Average Split time was 4.96 seconds per shot, and I was getting pretty tired by about shot #20! Last shot was a Slug thru a 3" hole at 30 yards and I made that one too!

Hope this helps some but there is a lot to operating a Combat Shotgun Effectively and it all takes practice after you are shown what to do. All my Training came from Front Sight, which unfortunately is now gone, and the new owners don't have a clue!

Randy

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A shotgun for combat use is intended for close range in most cases and that is under 30 yards. if the ranges are likely to be longer you are using the wrong weapon with exceptions because in real life there are always exceptions. I want my shotguns to have a decent fitting stock and a simple bead sight. A five round mag is good and just a few shells in reserve. it is more a reactive weapon for close range for the way I would use it. The only thing proactive about it that it is what I decided grab when something goes bump in the night.

If a target is at 50 yards and must be shot and I have double ought in the gun, I will fire at it, more than once is if necessary and I expect it to be hit. I am not doing sporting deer hunting here. Wounding a foe while not a good as killing outright, is usually a better outcome than not doing anything to the foe.
There are lot of square range gun exercises that are dear to many. That is your choice. Having a couple extra slug loads is maybe a good idea. But the reality is if I hear a commotion and it needs to be addressed in seconds, a pump shotgun with say five extra shells on the stock is a fast way to address it. My estate pistol is in a bandoleer holster and when awake i am wearing it as I am at this moment. If not it only takes a second to put on and I would also have it on when exiting the door.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Interesting choice (s).

I recently bought two of the 12 Ga. marine coat pumps from CDNN, made in Turkey. They had an odd feature of a large coil spring around the magazine tube that is supposed to assist in the forward movement of the pump. Man...! It makes the pump difficult to compress, and when it goes forward it can pull the forestock right out of your hand. I had them both removed in about 15 minutes, and now they work very nicely as a standard pump. What were they thinking?

....
DG

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Many years ago I saw something similar, but not on a shotgun. It was a 44 magnum caliber pump action rifle built on what was an M1 Carbine action. Looked like the bolt had been machined smooth to accept the head of a 44 case. The gun was in a rack and only examined it superficially. But seem to have been using the recoil spring of the carbine. I have no idea how well it worked and it was a commercially made gun. This was in the 60's.


Universal Vulcan .44 Magnum 18"bbl Pump Action Rifle 1963-67mfg I am not sure if what I saw was exactly identical to the below image.
https://images.gunsinternational.com...A67E74B4C5.JPG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barnetmill

A shotgun for combat use is intended for close range in most cases and that is under 30 yards. if the ranges are likely to be longer you are using the wrong weapon with exceptions because in real life there are always exceptions. I want my shotguns to have a decent fitting stock and a simple bead sight. A five round mag is good and just a few shells in reserve. it is more a reactive weapon for close range for the way I would use it. The only thing proactive about it that it is what I decided grab when something goes bump in the night.

If a target is at 50 yards and must be shot and I have double ought in the gun, I will fire at it, more than once is if necessary and I expect it to be hit. I am not doing sporting deer hunting here. Wounding a foe while not a good as killing outright, is usually a better outcome than not doing anything to the foe.
There are lot of square range gun exercises that are dear to many. That is your choice. Having a couple extra slug loads is maybe a good idea. But the reality is if I hear a commotion and it needs to be addressed in seconds, a pump shotgun with say five extra shells on the stock is a fast way to address it. My estate pistol is in a bandoleer holster and when awake i am wearing it as I am at this moment. If not it only takes a second to put on and I would also have it on when exiting the door.

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I hear what you are saying,,, However the Combat Shotgun, or "any shotgun" for that matter, is the most versatile weapon you own.. It's all about what you load them with, because that is what makes them so versatile. You are good from 5 feet to 100 yards.

Mine start with #8 Birdshot, up thru 00 & 000 Buckshot. Then a variety of Slugs which range from Cheap to make and load Lee and Lyman Slugs and Round Balls, and then STI Sabot slugs which deliver "Rifle Accuracy" out to 125+ yards. But you kinda need to have Rifle Sights on the gun and either a Rifled Barrel or Rifled Choke Tube to take advantage of the accuracy available with the more accurate slugs. the lesser Slugs work fine in smoothbores.

The thing about slugs is that a hit anywhere on a person will either Kill them or Seriously Debilitate them.

My House gun is the Gray one shown on my Thread. It is an 18" Mossberg 500 that has a 5 round magazine. It has a Vang Comped Barrel which patterns 00 Buck into 7" at 25 yards and that make 00 Buck viable out to 50 yards. I also have 2 Slugs on the side saddle, and can do a Select Slug Change Over in a few seconds if something needs to be shot at a longer distance. This gun will easily put 3 Slug rounds into 3" at 50 yards offhand, and a man sized target at 100 yards is very possible.

It is kept "Cruiser Ready. " (Chamber Empty, Hammer Down, Magazine Full, and Safety Off.) Rack Slide and you are ready to go, and if I have time I can grab a round off the side saddle and load it in the mag and have 6 rounds ready to fire.

There has been a bunch of training that has gone with this and that is why I push Tactical Shotguns so much. They are essentially .73 Caliber Rifles. They are not for everyone, but they could be if you tried harder?:holysheep

Randy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan

I hear what you are saying,,, However the Combat Shotgun, or "any shotgun" for that matter, is the most versatile weapon you own.. It's all about what you load them with, because that is what makes them so versatile. You are good from 5 feet to 100 yards.

Mine start with #8 Birdshot, up thru 00 & 000 Buckshot. Then a variety of Slugs which range from Cheap to make and load Lee and Lyman Slugs and Round Balls, and then STI Sabot slugs which deliver "Rifle Accuracy" out to 125+ yards. But you kinda need to have Rifle Sights on the gun and either a Rifled Barrel or Rifled Choke Tube to take advantage of the accuracy available with the more accurate slugs. the lesser Slugs work fine in smoothbores.

The thing about slugs is that a hit anywhere on a person will either Kill them or Seriously Debilitate them.

My House gun is the Gray one shown on my Thread. It is an 18" Mossberg 500 that has a 5 round magazine. It has a Vang Comped Barrel which patterns 00 Buck into 7" at 25 yards and that make 00 Buck viable out to 50 yards. I also have 2 Slugs on the side saddle, and can do a Select Slug Change Over in a few seconds if something needs to be shot at a longer distance. This gun will easily put 3 Slug rounds into 3" at 50 yards offhand, and a man sized target at 100 yards is very possible.

It is kept "Cruiser Ready" (Chamber Empty, Hammer Down, Magazine Full, and Safety Off. Rack Slide and you are ready to go, and if I have time I can grab a round off the side saddle and load it in the mag and have 6 rounds ready.

There has been a bunch of training that has gone with this and that is why I push Tactical Shotguns so much. They are essentially .73 Caliber Rifles. They are not for everyone, but they could be if you tried harder?:holysheep

Randy

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That bottom picture of a wad with a slug looks good.
If you could only have one long arm, the shotgun is most versatile considering hunting and self defense except for distances. You can make it work for most scenarios just like one can make rifle work at bad breathe distances. A carbine length rifle will work better at 5 ft than a shotgun will at 300 yards. If you are hunting with a shotgun, get closer. In combat if someone is shooting at me from a distance I want a rifle and the most common rifles in my area are ARs, AKs, and SKSs. For combat the carbine is more versatile. For survival that includes hunting the shotgun holds first place. I can hit birds on the wing with a shotgun, but that does not work so well with a rifle.
I do own a lot of pump shotguns and even a semi-auto and break open guns in 12, 28, and .410. Mainly I have them for a reserve in case fighting rifles get banned or severely regulated, I still have something to fight or hunt with.

The target on the left of the STI Slug was shot with my A5 with fully Rifled barrel at 50 yds. with Open Sights. It is 550 gr and was running at @ 1200 fps. First 3 shots were the Cloverleaf. then I added the other two after I saw the first three.

I won't argue with the Rifle for Combat. However hitting a guy with a slug at 50 yards will do way more damage than a .223 rifle round,,, A slug is still viable a little past 100 yards, but much farther I want a rifle as well, but if you only have the shotgun with you it's not like you are helpless. You just have to change your tactics.

Now if you are talking my Ruger Scout Rifle which is a .308 I am good to past 600 yards if I have the Scope installed. With the Red Dot on it 300+ is pretty easy but the holdovers get foggy after 300.

The whole idea we are both trying to convey is that in order to fight, you must first Have a Gun, and second, Know how to use it! Sometimes you have to Run what you Brung!.

Possible things that might be with me. Scout with scope. Scout with Red Dot, Springfield NRA Sporter, Enfield #4 Mk1 Sporter, Ruger PCC .40 S&W Only the PCC is a <100 yard gun.

Randy

Well I just pickup the shipment and it looks good. It seems to be as advertised and I will have to shoot some of to be sure.

Attachment 321940

A friend bought a case of sar 9mm. I was good for malfunction practice. I would say failure to fire was in the 5-7% rate over 1000 rounds. Used in multiple pistols, hamer striker etc. I also bought a Turkish 12 single shot and it is absolute garbage. I will not use anything firearms related from Turkey anymore. I hope you have better luck.

There was an old saying by the Marines many moons ago, "if you don't have the best equipment, get the best out of the equipment you have".. My dad also used this phrase and he was Army. james

I did fire a couple today to get a feel for an old used stevens with round receiver and 3" chamber I picked for $85 a few years ago. I test fired a couple of rounds of the SAR ammo. It seems to be as advertised. It had some recoil and so it seems fully loaded. The pattern seems to be a few inches low at 30 yards. I will shoot some more of it. I need to find my old Pachmayr shoulder recoil pad and I will shoot some more. Mainly to test for misfires. Relative to load, the cartridges are transparent and defects of wadding or shot charges should be visible.