Testing if 9/mm drawn cases will work for making 9/mm or 357/sig bullets

Because copper jackets are getting so expensive today, I needed to run some sample tests to see if 9/mm drawn cases could be used to make 9/mm and 357/Sig 125/gn bullets. A 9/mm drawn case ends up being 0.800" long. For making heavier 157/gn 357/magnum bullets the full length can be used without any problems. I never tried making the lighter bullets because the cases would have to be trimmed which I really didn't want to do. From reading some articles about trimming cases I decided to invest $40 to purchase the Harbor Freight 2" bench cutoff saw. It will easily cut a case or hollow tube. Cutting something solid like the base of the case the blade just catches and stalls, very little torque. For trimming cases not, a problem. You will have to be inventive to setup an adjustable stop to speed up the process. I've figured that out and will make the setup soon. This does work faster than trimming on the lathe. Annealed cases could not be trimmed on the lathe to soft. With the cutoff saw cutting annealed cases is now not an issue. Using any method to trim a case the case mouth ID and OD still needs to be deburred.

Here are my results from the various tests that I ran to make a 125/gn bullet:
9/mm fully drawn case = 0.800" long
cases used were trimmed to 0.600" long, average case weight = 55/gn mixed head stamps, primer still in.
cores were swaged to 70/gn's resulting in an average finished bullet weight of 125/gn's weights varied several grains, testing only.

Bullet comparison length using a 357-copper jacket 0.500" length and the 9/mm drawn case trimmed to 0.600" length.
The main issue here is keeping the finished bullet overall length as short as possible. Otherwise, the loaded bullet would result in a very compressed powder load, not ideal or safe.

OAL USING A 0.500" COPPER JACKET STANDARD POINT DIE USED = 0.550"
very uniform finished bullet, can't tell difference from a factory bullet

OAL USING A 0.600" 9/MM DRAWN CASE STANDARD POINT DIE USED = 0.640"
nose will vary if weight various, this was only a quick test

OAL USING A 0.600" 9/MM DRAWN CASE USING A REPOINT DIE = 0.610"
Re-pointing the bullet always results in the best overall finished bullet nose but an extra step

Based on the above tests, the bullet lengths would work loading the cartridge to the maximum OAL.
These bullets could be made for around $0.04 each. Several more steps are required but worth it based on the cost of copper jackets. They will still shoot as good.

The pictures just show some 70/gn cores and a 0.600" trimmed 9/mm case.
The other pictures show the various finished bullets using the Standard Point Die and then running them through the Re-Point die.

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Very good post/thread, KAYDADOG. An area of the vast body of knowledge to be learned about bullet making, and something I know little about past casting. So, indulge my ignorance, and let me ask this question: Seems to me that bullet jackets are softer than brass, especially copper ones. Therefore I wonder about accelerated barrel wear shooting jackets formed from cartridge brass? It must be harder?

DG

Could you use .380 brass and avoid the trimming? The case is .680 in length.

great info right there, kaydadog! i do exactly the same as you but i've built my own press as i wanted to draw the cases in one pass, and i was successful. are you drawing them in one pass as well? if so, what do you use (press) for this purpose?
MFG

I bought a bunch of .380 cases to make jacketed .357 bullets with since they don’t require as much reduction in diameter as 9mm. I haven’t got to it yet, but this stirs up interest again

Der Gebirgsjager, actually what your stating is actually the opposite. Copper jackets are harder than an annealed brass case. I didn't mention that step in my post but to draw down 9/mm cases to 0.357" diameter the brass needs to be annealed.
So, putting hardness from high to low it would be as follows:
COPPER JACKET = HARD
ANNEALED BRASS = MED HARD
CAST LEAD BULLET = SOFT

If I were to shoot thousands and thousands of rounds the brass jackets would be one step above shooting cast bullets and no leading.

Thank You for asking questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager

Very good post/thread, KAYDADOG. An area of the vast body of knowledge to be learned about bullet making, and something I know little about past casting. So, indulge my ignorance, and let me ask this question: Seems to me that bullet jackets are softer than brass, especially copper ones. Therefore I wonder about accelerated barrel wear shooting jackets formed from cartridge brass? It must be harder?

DG

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Regarding the other questions I use Corbin's draw reducing die to reduce an annealed 9/mm case to 0.357" diameter. The die is setup for a press using the H-Type dies, the only ones I use. I make everything on the automated hydraulic press I built years ago. These can be made in 7/seconds or less. Basically, as fast as you can center one on the draw die you can make them, pretty fast. As always stated, if you ever used hydraulics for a press, you would never want to do any operation manually again. The biggest advantage, no effort needed, and every cycle is repeatable for the same quality.

Using a 380 0.680" length case will probably result in a compressed powder charge.
The 0.640" bullet that was made would probably be the maximum bullet I would use loading the 357/Sig cartridge to an OAL of 1.140"
From checking the case with the powder charge used, the bullet would just start to reach the top of the powder charge. Anything longer would definitely result in a compressed powder charge. Would it be safe, I don't know. You would have to do your own testing with a reduced load. There usually is no easy way to make some of these calibers using cases for jackets. For sure copper jackets are the easiest to use with no added operations. Like all other component cost's, the prices are getting out of hand.

From my limited experience, making the lighter bullets using cases for jackets will always result in shortening the case. Found that out making a 300/gr 50/AE bullet using a 45/ACP case. They have to be trimmed to 0.800". Now that I have the high-quality Harbor Freight cutoff saw I can easily trim them pretty fast even after they have been annealed. Before they had to be trimmed on the lathe before annealing. The cutoff saw will speed up the process. Luckily, I'm not going to be shooting thousands of them. The cost savings is where it's all worth the time and effort. It's still a very good hobby.

Anything else let me know.

Thank You

Thanks for the explanation, KAYDADOG. I did not know that about copper vs. annealed brass hardness relationship.

DG

If you have a lathe you no doubt have a drill press and possibly even a mill. I agree that trimming on a lathe is slow but a mill or drill press with a collet fixture is possibly as fast (?) as a cut off saw and most probably more accurate. But. accuracy may not enter into the equation as brass jacketed bullets aren't that precise anyway unless one goes to a whole lot of extra steps.
As an aside, I wish I had a hydraulic setup. I've considered building one to use WH dies but too many other projects take precedence. Would like to see pictures of yours, though...

Another thought: after trimming 9mm cases in a collet fixture using an end mill (no guide necessary) a burr is indeed left on both the inside and outside. BUT. drawing thru the reducing die smooths out (or eliminates) the OD burr and, as long as the core drops all the way into the case (as it should because the case is tapered at the base and a core needs to be sufficiently undersized to drop to the bottom) the inside burr has no real effect on the finished product. Just my experience using 9mm trimmed cases...

To trim 40 S&W brass for 44 mag I use this setup:

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That's a Lee Universal 3 jaw chuck.

I was reluctant for years to use a cutoff saw for trimming cases. After investing in the $40 Harbor Freight one just to do some testing I have changed my mind. It is very basic but will cut a case mouth. Anything solid the blade will just stall, no real torque, but not needed for trimming cases. You will also have to get inventive to add a case stop setup which I plan on doing today. The vise has its grip limitations. For trimming 9/mm cases you will need to back it up with a second case for the vise to close squarely. That's not an issue because if you make an adjustable stop, you just adjust from inside the back case.

Trimming on the lathe does take more time. Depending on the case being trimmed I made up a case holder which would be chucked up once. Bored out the round stock to exactly fit the case. Used a small set screw to hold the case, quick to get the case in and out. Once you determine your finished length set the end stop and start trimming. Using the cutoff saw I can probably double how many I can do at the same time.

I don't like deburring 100's of cases. I have a Hornady tool with the three-tool setup where you can do the case OD and ID. It adds some time to the overall process and is pretty fast to do. It also gives you a good clean case mouth.

Sasquatch-1, I'm going to say your setup has to be very time consuming. I would seriously look into using a cutoff saw. I didn't want to go down that path either but after I did some of my past tests, I've changed my mind. I like to use quality equipment and may have gone one step higher to purchase one of the other saws on the market. Overall, the saw won't get used that often.

Found one of your earlier posts on making 158 gr bullets for .357 Mag. You do some neat stuff!!!

Looked at making some for my .357's
Value of 9mm cases about $3/100
Value of lead about $2/100

$5/100 is cheap. But dies/core mold might cost $1000? (Correct me if I am off base). I assume my Rock Chucker is enough press to make 158 gr .357 bullets so no other investment required.

Just found 158 gr Hornady XTP's for $25/100. To break even on the dies/mold I need to produce 5000 bullets.

I am too old to ever use that many bullets for "serious" work. I will buy 10 boxes of the XTP's and should be set for life for self defense bullets. My "fun" shooting is with .38 Spl level loads and cast works OK.

If I was 30 years younger, investing in decent swaging equipment might make sense. 30 years ago, I made good money and had little time to do stuff like this. But for the younger guys it sure bears looking at. Who knows what our "elected idiots" will do down the road. Nice to be self sufficient!

An old fart like me with some spare change might be better off buying a lifetime supply of stuff.

dverna, I'm not sure how a 357 bullet would come out using a Rock Chucker. I've never made any of my bullets on a manual press especially using a reloading press. A manual swaging press for sure may not be an issue. All I can say is it takes a lot of pressure to make the larger bullets. Core seating requires the most pressure to expand the jacket you're using to the maximum ID of the die. I've said it before I couldn't imagine doing what I do on a manual press and probably breaking something. Any of the bullets I now make will take an average of 10-12 hours to make a 1000-piece lot. That's really not too bad at an average cost of about $50 for 1000 bullets just a little bit of a savings. It wouldn't take long to pay for a set of dies.

As far as die cost's Dave Corbin's H-Type dies are still around $800-$900 for a three-die set. Last time I looked BT's dies are over $1/K for a three-die set and there the standard 7/8-14 size shown in the picture. The only ones I use are the large 1-1/2" diameter ones usually used on a hydraulic press. I'll include a picture to show the difference in size. I'll also include the 357 bullets made using 9/mm cases. Using any of the cases for jackets have to be annealed first. Just one of the first steps in the process.

Anyone young enough to make the investment will easily pay for it in the years to come. Component cost's will always be going up.

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Originally Posted by KAYDADOG

Sasquatch-1, I'm going to say your setup has to be very time consuming. I would seriously look into using a cutoff saw. I didn't want to go down that path either but after I did some of my past tests, I've changed my mind. I like to use quality equipment and may have gone one step higher to purchase one of the other saws on the market. Overall, the saw won't get used that often.

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I have the little HF cut off saw. I used it for quite some time. I found when cutting down 40's, it cut at an angle. With my method it is just as fast, and I get a straight cut. Also, the little saw I have would have to be used slowly or the blade would bind.

I'm just going to give some additional information on what it would take me to make these bullets versus buying at today's prices. Widner's sells 124/gn round nose jacketed bullets now for $175.00 per 2000, about $0.09 each which is not too bad of a price. I've purchased some for loading 9/mm rounds. These will not work for the 357/Sig because a truncated shorter nose is required to stay within the OAL.
Other than that, here are my actual results from my testing. Since I'm using a hydraulic press, my overall times will be even shorter than making them on a manual press.

ANNEAL 9/mm cases, I don't add any time because I can do any case annealing while making any bullets, so the time is not added.
DRAW 100 CASE LOT ------15/MINUTES
TRIM 100 CASE LOT -------30/MINUTES
DEBURE 100 CASE LOT ---30/MINUTES
CUT & SWAGE 100 CORES 20/MINUTES
CORE SEAT 100 CORES ---20/MINUTES
POINT FORM 100 CASES --20/MINUTES

TOTAL TIME PER 100 BULLETS = 2/HOURS & 15/MINUTES MINIMUM TIME
TOTAL TIME PER 1000 BULLETS = 22.5/HOURS, COST $40.00
TOTAL TIME PER 2000 BULLETS = 45.0/HOURS, COST $80.00

PLUS, EQUIPMENT AND DIES TO MAKE THEM

TO PURCHASE 2000 BULLETS FOR $175 MINUS MY COST OF $80 THE ADDITIONAL COST IS ONLY $95

Even for me it is worth it to spend the additional $95 without the 45/hours plus to make this specific bullet.
Like everything else if the price is right, stock up for the future, the price will never go lower.
For making small lots to be used for the 357/Sig I would still go through the process. I still mostly use cast bullets for target shooting because they feed just fine.
Corbin's selling 357 copper jackets for around $0.13 each right now so it is hard to justify making your own if you can still buy them for $0.09 each. For sure the cost will go up in the future like everything else.

For me I can justify the dies because I can make 357/magnum bullets using the full length of a 9/mm drawn case. I also have a good supply of copper jackets to make 9/mm or 357/sig bullets if needed. The equipment will easily pay for itself the younger you are getting into swaging bullets.

What process are you using to anneal your brass?

As stated in earlier post's I use an Annie Induction annealer. I integrated this annealer into the automated setup I made. Currently I can anneal 9/mm, 40S&W and 45/ACP cases automatically at a 300-piece rate per hour. This project took months to build, wire, program and do the electrical CAD drawings. It was well worth it when you see the cases being processed automatically and all annealed the same.

I don't mind investing in a quality piece of equipment and the Annie fits the bill. If I'm making bullets on the hydraulic press, then I can run the annealer at the same time to stock up on cases and no additional time is added to the bullet making process.

Without my background I wouldn't be able to build any of this equipment. Swaging is an expensive hobby to get into. It just depends at what level you want to be at. I try to do things right the first time and that may be more expensive. I've found out it pays off in the long term.