stability problems, 44spl, 284g, 20in barrel henry

so I am casting some 284g (with gas check) wide flat nose bullets from my friends NOE mold. They are intended for 44spl and are too long to seat in a 44mag case. Bullets are powder coated and sized to .430. I am using Power Pistol loads based on quickload data. Today I tested 7.4, 7.5, and 7.6g of powder. 7.4g should be within 44spl pressures, but its a 44mag gun, so even if pressure are a little high its ok.

The lead alloy is unknow, its melted down and re-used brazos bullets (got a batch that did not work well for me) but it should be 13bhn according to brazos.

I started with chrono testing today, and that's where the issues started. I am sighted in at 25yds with 44mags, the 44spl are hitting a couple inches high. I put the chrono out and aimed half way up the berm. The berm is 100yds down range and about 6ft high. while testing I noticed what appeared to be a round bounce off the ground at about 75-80yds. I stopped and ran a ballistics calculator and the bullet should only be dropping about 9in at 100. I aimed higher up on the berm and only had 1 other round strike the ground short of the berm.

results
6round over the chrono each
mixed 44spl brass
284g powder coated gas checked WFN, sized to .430
CCI Large Pistol Primers
Power pistol powder for all loads
7.4g, avg 1032, SD 11.25, ES 33
7.5g, avg 1037, SD 4.46, ES 10
7.6g, avg 1049, SD 7.76, ES 21

Then I went on to accuracy testing and things got more interesting. shooting at 25yds with a red dot, rifle on sand bags. shot my 4 sighters, and they were all over the place, could not cover the group with my hand. Tested some 200g plinkers I have, about a 2in group. I decided to go ahead and test my loads. After reviewing the target it looks like the bullets are not going in straight, and most of the fliers(for lack of a batter word) are the ones going in canted. The rifle has a 1:20 twist, if anything the bullets should be over stabilized.... What am I missing.

7.4g 3.12in (11.91moa)
7.5g 3.8in (14.53moa)
7.6g 2.27in (8.6moa)

Attachment 301517

A possible cause might be a micro-grooved barrel on your Henry and your bullets are too small in diameter. Try some unsized and see if they do better

I didn't have any stability or accuracy issues with the 16 inch Marlin .44 I sold last year. It stabilized 280 and 290 WFNGC fine.
I never shot anything lighter than 250-260 grain in it and it had a 1 -38" twist.

Now I've been trying different bullets and powders for a Rossi 92 in .357 I got a couple months ago. It is also a short 16", and shoots 158 grain great, feeds well with WFN and RNFP and feeds fantastic with SWC.
I haven't casted for years, and wanted to buy a heavier WFN for the .357. I couldn't find any with gas checks (without waiting a while to get them) so I bought a box of MBC 180 grain Pugnose, a WFN design. They are coated (double coated and baked) so maybe a little better than a plain base lead bullet, but far from being protected like a gas check.

Using the slowest powder I had at the time, A#7, I got 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards with the starting charge and the next one. The last three 5 shot groups opened up to 4 inches. But all of them, even up to the max of 9.4 grains were keyholing when they hit the target. Worse than Shadow's bullet holes above.

I got some Lil'Gun the other day and loaded from 13.8 to 15 grains with the 180 WFN.
I guess they are moving fast enough now as all were stabilized and made a clean hole in the target.
13.8 and 14.1 grains shot nice 1 inch 50 yard groups, 14.3 got worse at 2 inches, and 14.5 and 14.7 had a 6 inch spread. I didn't even shoot the 5 I had loaded at 15.0 grains, took them home and pulled them.

I believe one can push those coated bullets like mine only so fast before accuracy goes out the window. And when your rifling twist is on the slow side, those heavy for caliber bullets need to be driven closer to max than slowpoke to stabilize.

At home on the cleaning bench, I half expected to see some leading past the chamber (from the last two groups that went 6 inches) but there wasn't any to speak of.
I was thinking the Rossi had a faster twist, at least in .357, but it seems all are 1 - 30" regardless of caliber.

Shadow9mm, if you are only getting 1049 max out of a 20 inch rifle, it's pretty slow.
(that load will probably only be doing 700 or a bit less out of a handgun).
You'd think your 1-20" twist would be enough, right ?

That 284 grain driven by a slower powder to say, 1300 fps. out of your Henry, should stabilize better.
I know you are having to use Special brass due to length issues, but as you say, it's a .44 magnum gun. You'll only be limited by the strength of the .44 Special brass.

If I remember correctly a 44 magnum rifle standard bore is .432. Your bullets may be too small.
Rick

I'd try powder coating a few after they were sized, and/or a few that weren't sized at all.
Also, going that slow, I wouldn't put the gas check on either.
A hundred yards is a long way for a flat faced, slow, and heavy boolit to stay in the air.
I've had good results up to the lower/mid 'teens without a gas check, even with fairly soft alloys.

Rickintn has the answer.Your bullets are too small .Slug the barrel

It will be interesting to see what his Henry measures. The .44 rifle having different bore specs than what is called for .44 handguns is crazy, and has messed with a lot of shooters over the years.
Not all .44 long guns are oversized though. The .44 Marlin I mentioned above was just a hair over .430". Not .429" like it should be, but some .44's run the full .432". It's hard to get them that big unless you get a custom mold. I've seen some casters offer bullets sized to .431", maybe one offers bullets sized to .432".

I've slugged my Rossi .357 barrel and my bullets are not undersize, but I still got keyholing when I wasn't driving those heavy bullets fast enough.
I did get good accuracy on the lower end of the charge weights.

I would assume Henry 44 mag rifle barrels are SAAMI spec (.431)...especially the new 1:20 twist barrels they just started making in 2019-20. I also think your mystery alloy might be too hard for 44spl pressure, especially of you are sizing your boolits to .430

Quote:

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The lead alloy is unknow, its melted down and re-used brazos bullets (got a batch that did not work well for me) but it should be 13bhn according to brazos.

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I would mix your brazos alloy with pure lead, probably a 50-50 mix, that should make it about 9-10 Bhn.
That's my 2¢

so, how do I slug the barrel if my molds are too small? if im casting .430 and the bore is .431 wont the bullet go in an come out under sized? also I did contact henry to ask their groove diameter to get a concrete answer

The velocity is not high enough to stabilize that bullet in whatever the barrel twist is. Doesn't matter what others are doing with different bullets in different rifles with probable different twists at different velocities. Easiest way to find out is to step the load up to 44 SPL +P velocities (1200 fps +/-). If you don't want that much oomph then a lighter weight bullet such as Lee's 200 RF or 240 SWC would be in order.

The very first thing a cast bullet shooter should always do is slug the barrel. Slugging a barrel is a sticky on this site. There are several ways to do so and any done correctly is right VS not slugging the barrel.

Right now, your target shows definite indications of the bullets being unstable, the holes every one, should be perfectly round and about half of yours have a lip.

Cast with pure lead, see if you get a .432 bullet and then look careful to make sure the bullets as are fully filled out and round.
If you can not cast to .432 cut three narrow pieces of soda can, put then on the bottom and two sides, close the mold hard and fill it, you should get a bullet that will size to .432 or .433. Finding and oversized sizer today might be a trick. I had a Ruger SBH with a .4325 barrel so have a .433 sizer. Been this route before. Hard cast do not obturate they must fit the groove diameter, else-wise you might as well throw rocks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

so, how do I slug the barrel if my molds are too small? if im casting .430 and the bore is .431 wont the bullet go in an come out under sized? also I did contact henry to ask their groove diameter to get a concrete answer

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I use a soft lead.457 round ball.

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Originally Posted by sandog

I didn't have any stability or accuracy issues with the 16 inch Marlin .44 I sold last year. It stabilized 280 and 290 WFNGC fine.
I never shot anything lighter than 250-260 grain in it and it had a 1 -38" twist.

Now I've been trying different bullets and powders for a Rossi 92 in .357 I got a couple months ago. It is also a short 16", and shoots 158 grain great, feeds well with WFN and RNFP and feeds fantastic with SWC.
I haven't casted for years, and wanted to buy a heavier WFN for the .357. I couldn't find any with gas checks (without waiting a while to get them) so I bought a box of MBC 180 grain Pugnose, a WFN design. They are coated (double coated and baked) so maybe a little better than a plain base lead bullet, but far from being protected like a gas check.

Using the slowest powder I had at the time, A#7, I got 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards with the starting charge and the next one. The last three 5 shot groups opened up to 4 inches. But all of them, even up to the max of 9.4 grains were keyholing when they hit the target. Worse than Shadow's bullet holes above.

I got some Lil'Gun the other day and loaded from 13.8 to 15 grains with the 180 WFN.
I guess they are moving fast enough now as all were stabilized and made a clean hole in the target.
13.8 and 14.1 grains shot nice 1 inch 50 yard groups, 14.3 got worse at 2 inches, and 14.5 and 14.7 had a 6 inch spread. I didn't even shoot the 5 I had loaded at 15.0 grains, took them home and pulled them.

I believe one can push those coated bullets like mine only so fast before accuracy goes out the window. And when your rifling twist is on the slow side, those heavy for caliber bullets need to be driven closer to max than slowpoke to stabilize.

At home on the cleaning bench, I half expected to see some leading past the chamber (from the last two groups that went 6 inches) but there wasn't any to speak of.
I was thinking the Rossi had a faster twist, at least in .357, but it seems all are 1 - 30" regardless of caliber.

Shadow9mm, if you are only getting 1049 max out of a 20 inch rifle, it's pretty slow.
(that load will probably only be doing 700 or a bit less out of a handgun).
You'd think your 1-20" twist would be enough, right ?

That 284 grain driven by a slower powder to say, 1300 fps. out of your Henry, should stabilize better.
I know you are having to use Special brass due to length issues, but as you say, it's a .44 magnum gun. You'll only be limited by the strength of the .44 Special brass.

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Try some 2400 with those Pugnose bullets.
My Rossi with a 24" tube likes 11.4 grs. and I have a couple buddies with Henrys that say 11.5 works well for them.

RP

As for bullets to small to size barrel correctly, take a rubber mallet and whop it once on the nose. You just sized it bigger.

I also agree that bullets are probably too small. Keyholing or "tipping" of rounds seems to be a strong indicator for this.

I had a 9mm pistol that I ended up using .357mag cast for as it cast at .3595. Solved my key holing and shotgun pattern instantly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rapier

The very first thing a cast bullet shooter should always do is slug the barrel. Slugging a barrel is a sticky on this site. There are several ways to do so and any done correctly is right VS not slugging the barrel.

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+1

If your bullet is undersize for the bore, it will leak pressure, which may account for the unexpected drop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pereira

Try some 2400 with those Pugnose bullets.
My Rossi with a 24" tube likes 11.4 grs. and I have a couple buddies with Henrys that say 11.5 works well for them.

RP

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I'd like to try some 2400 but haven't seen any in a long time. I had some A#9 but used it up recently, and still have A#7, both of those are right on either side of 2400 on the burn chart. You'd think that all in that burning range would be similar in performance.

The 13.8 grain load of Lil' Gun and the Pugnose was accurate and no keyholing, much better results than what I got with A#7, those keyholed and did not group well.
And A#7 is just one powder faster than 2400.

So I hope to be casting again in a couple weeks. almost done with my PID controller. will coat and cast and see how much diameter I can get after casting and coating. Then I will order a new sizer, hopefully for .432

In the mean time, will pushing the pressure up help it bump size, so to speak. Based on quickload data pressures with my loads are only around 13kpsi. I do have data to push up to about 28k PSI. while i would not be able stay subsonic like I wanted, but would the extra pressure be enough to help it fill into the grooves?

Creo safe, I think is the name, check Brownell's or midway, to slug or cast a barrel plug, then you can measure for bullet. Then maybe more speed.

If I remember correctly the BHN of your mix multiplied by 1,422 or a similar number will result in the pressure required to cause obturation. The LASC page linked at the top and bottom of this page (I think) is full of very valuable information for loading cast bullets. It's a good study.
Rick

JonB_in_Glencoe, there are two SAAMI specifications for 44 Mag groove diameter; one for pistols and one for rifles. In all likelihood, it goes back to the 60’s when Marlin, of micro-groove fame, introduced a rifle in 44 Mag. At one time, Henry also used micro-grooved barrels and eventually transitioned to Ballard rifling for their 44 Mag rifles, as did Marlin. As noted in previous posts, micro-groove barrels shoot jacketed bullets quite well but are notoriously inaccurate with cast unless using a larger diameter bullet. Look at the end of your muzzle and count the grooves.