Stumped. Need some help with paper patched 9.5x47

Background: I have successfully developed paper patched loads for 45-70and shoot them in competition (Pedersoli RB) and have done so for 38-55 in the past (Winchester 1885). I have done some work with smokeless paper patching as well. I have read the Mathews books and Ned Roberts’ “The Schuestzen Rifle”. Very familiar with paper patching and BPCR.

I have a late 1870s vintage German stalking rifle or Mauserbuchsen (1871 Mauser pattern) chambered in 9.5x47R, a vaguely Peabody looking cartridge, shaped a bit like a coke bottle, that was somewhat popular in Germany. 1:14 gain twist. I have done chamber casts and slugged the bore. The bore is not pristine but no major erosion, pitting, or significant irregularities. Somewhat short but quite gradual leade. Slugs a true .375” in the grooves.

I really want to paper patch for this rifle and haven’t found a greaser that shoots well in it. But, I am struggling and stumped.

Using 250 grs .365 swaged concave base slicks from Buffalo Arms )which have worked well in 38-55 in the past), and nine pound onion skin for a final diameter of .3745”. Loading into the lands such that paper jacket is just engaged. I’m getting early keyholing at 200 yards. Load chronos at about 1250 fps: 50 grs 1.5 Fg, large pistol primer, 1/10” compression, over powder fiber wad, small lube cookie, then a waxed cardboard wad to keep lube from fouling paper jacket. Wondered if wad was getting kicked into and stuck into concave base and hanging on, so used the Elmer Keith recommendation of some cornmeal between cardboard wad and bullet base. No change. 250 grs slicks are .62” and should stabilize easily in 1:14 twist.

I have tried a slightly slimmer paper for .3735-.374” diameter and another out to .378” diameter. The first made no difference and the fatties were stripping in the barrel.

Stumped. Looking for advice and counsel.

Have a 9.3x57 with the 1x14 twist. Will shoot jacketed 286 grain bullets. Just a suggestion, might want to give slightly heavier bullets a try. Some shooters have also swaged down 300 grain .375 bullets as well again with good accuracy. Frank

More powder.

Thanks to you both.

@edp2k More powder makes good sense, faster revolutions. Will have to try.

@samari46 what's the thinking on heavier bullets? I agree that there is no reason 1:14 won't stabilize the 250s, but since I am already seeing instability at 200 yards, going longer seems counterintuitive...

There are a couple things that is giving you the problem and more powder is not the answer, might even make it worse.

The concave base you mentioned. is it a cup base? dish base? or hollow base?
Back in the late 1800rds the transition from muzzle loaders to breach seated cartridge rifles were making a transition and what worked well in the muzzle loaders using the hollow based bullets to help seal the bore, rifled or the smoothies were carried over to the cartridge rifles.
Company's like Sharps that sold patched bullets had the twisted patch tail and this gave a problem either sticking in the deep hollow base like the mini and caused accuracy problems but the twisted tail also gave a problem with accuracy because the wad would get pushed over the twisted tail and cause a gas leak because the wad edges got pushed away from the bore cutting grooves on the bullet shank. Man I looked at a lot of recovered paper patched bullets with damaged bases with different ways to protect the bullet base to improve the accuracy using wad stacks and patched bases.
Below are some recovered bullets with the patches still stuck in the cup based bullets a friend sent me with his instructions on how he loaded them and wanted me to load as he does. He lives out of the snow belt :D and saw dust just don't give the same results as fresh soft snow does :D
Those were shot at short range of around 50 yards and the patches rode with the bullets.
What I found was the patches had lube stuck between the base and the folded paper how he patched the cup based bullets, he did not use a twisted tail that would have filled the cup and hold the wad from getting reduced in diameter and letting the lube wad get pushed between the wad and filling the void between the paper and bullet. also you can see the bulets have wrinkles on the shank from being deep seated in the case. One of those bullets(second from the left has a gas cut cutting the skirt through).
Also the skirts were badly deformed by the wad stack making them thinner.
The thinner the skirts the more problem for having the deformed base.

I once tried to develop a lead bullet I shoot for the matches and I also swage a lot of my bullets using both of the Corbins tooling and I wanted a bullet that had a rebated flat and hollow base like the Lapua and Sierra Match bullets but a shorter elliptical ogive. The first problem I ran into was keyholes at 200 yards and even at 100, well time for the snow fall later in the fall :D well what I found was the base was greatly deformed from the wads and gas cuts.
What I'm getting at with these cup based bullets you need a hard wad that won't get pushed unto the cup based bullet and let the gas do the damage. With that rebated bullet in the photo I solved that problem using 3/16" bread flour over the wad to protect the fragile base and that solved the accuracy problems and it shot very good in my .40-70 Sharps.
But making that bullet is more time involved to make. A good cast flat based bullet is hard to beat.....

Corn meal under the bullet will look like #1 of the bullets in the bullet tray. That bullet had no wad to see what the black powder does to the bullet base and you can see the granule dimples. Corn meal will do the same and also badly damage the cup based skirts.

Gas cuts and damaged skirts will cause a gas leak as the bullet clears the muzzle with uneven pressure on one side causing keyholes or oval holes through paper as well as bullets to long or short for the twist of your rifling.

Sorry for the long book.

Kurt






Attachment 286954Attachment 286955Attachment 286956

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lead pot

There are a couple things that is giving you the problem and more powder is not the answer, might even make it worse.

The concave base you mentioned. is it a cup base? dish base? or hollow base?
Back in the late 1800rds the transition from muzzle loaders to breach seated cartridge rifles were making a transition and what worked well in the muzzle loaders using the hollow based bullets to help seal the bore, rifled or the smoothies were carried over to the cartridge rifles.
Company's like Sharps that sold patched bullets had the twisted patch tail and this gave a problem either sticking in the deep hollow base like the mini and caused accuracy problems but the twisted tail also gave a problem with accuracy because the wad would get pushed over the twisted tail and cause a gas leak because the wad edges got pushed away from the bore cutting grooves on the bullet shank. Man I looked at a lot of recovered paper patched bullets with damaged bases with different ways to protect the bullet base to improve the accuracy using wad stacks and patched bases.
Below are some recovered bullets with the patches still stuck in the cup based bullets a friend sent me with his instructions on how he loaded them and wanted me to load as he does. He lives out of the snow belt :D and saw dust just don't give the same results as fresh soft snow does :D
Those were shot at short range of around 50 yards and the patches rode with the bullets.
What I found was the patches had lube stuck between the base and the folded paper how he patched the cup based bullets, he did not use a twisted tail that would have filled the cup and hold the wad from getting reduced in diameter and letting the lube wad get pushed between the wad and filling the void between the paper and bullet. also you can see the bulets have wrinkles on the shank from being deep seated in the case. One of those bullets(second from the left has a gas cut cutting the skirt through).
Also the skirts were badly deformed by the wad stack making them thinner.
The thinner the skirts the more problem for having the deformed base.

I once tried to develop a lead bullet I shoot for the matches and I also swage a lot of my bullets using both of the Corbins tooling and I wanted a bullet that had a rebated flat and hollow base like the Lapua and Sierra Match bullets but a shorter elliptical ogive. The first problem I ran into was keyholes at 200 yards and even at 100, well time for the snow fall later in the fall :D well what I found was the base was greatly deformed from the wads and gas cuts.
What I'm getting at with these cup based bullets you need a hard wad that won't get pushed unto the cup based bullet and let the gas do the damage. With that rebated bullet in the photo I solved that problem using 3/16" bread flour over the wad to protect the fragile base and that solved the accuracy problems and it shot very good in my .40-70 Sharps.
But making that bullet is more time involved to make. A good cast flat based bullet is hard to beat.....

Corn meal under the bullet will look like #1 of the bullets in the bullet tray. That bullet had no wad to see what the black powder does to the bullet base and you can see the granule dimples. Corn meal will do the same and also badly damage the cup based skirts.

Gas cuts and damaged skirts will cause a gas leak as the bullet clears the muzzle with uneven pressure on one side causing keyholes or oval holes through paper as well as bullets to long or short for the twist of your rifling.

Sorry for the long book.

Kurt






Attachment 286954Attachment 286955Attachment 286956

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Kurt,

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond and explain.

The slicks I’m using are a cup base rather than a genuine hollow base. The end of the patch twists and folds nicely into cup and when compressed leaves an effectively flat base. But, as I explained above, I was concerned precisely about what you explain and have shown in photographs: namely lube and top wad getting pushed up into the base and either sticking to it, creating instability or, as you explain, allowing gas cutting and subsequent base deformation.

In searching for a remedy, I found a passage in The Paper Jacket where Mathews discusses this issue and provides a “solution” that he says was passed onto him by Elmer Keith. Keith allegedly said that a buffer of corn meal between bullet and top wad would stop the wad getting shoved up into the cup or sticking to the bullet base. Make sense to me and I tried. But I wondered if I needed to use more. It seems that is not a good solution however.

I believe the problem is as you describe. It can’t be instability based on bullet length with the 1:14 twist. Since they re patched to just under groove diameter, it is not lack of engaging the rifling. And it is not radical keyholing but instability. So, base deformation from gas cutting and or the top wad getting stuck in the base makes sense.

So, since the Keith Cornmeal “buffer” doesn’t work and may add to the problem, what would be your recommendation ? Try flour and a harder wad? Try skipping lube altogether? Both?


Thanks again for your excellent analysis.

Make sure your wad stack and bullet base is not below the case neck into the shoulder.
Bullet length like mentioned and also the alloy temper. With black powder a hard alloy if the bullet is greater than the bore diameter might help. A softer alloy if patched under bore diameter.
With the black powder and your wiping between shots do away with the lube wad.
I know it gets frustrating at times but I'm, sure you will find the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lead pot

Make sure your wad stack and bullet base is not below the case neck into the shoulder.
Bullet length like mentioned and also the alloy temper. With black powder a hard alloy if the bullet is greater than the bore diameter might help. A softer alloy if patched under bore diameter.
With the black powder and your wiping between shots do away with the lube wad.
I know it gets frustrating at times but I'm, sure you will find the answer.

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Thanks. These are good ideas and gives me plenty of variables to work on.

Just be careful with that 71 action. They are not as strong like your 85 or Sharps. I would get a flat based bullet and do away with that cup base. The Germans had a lot of variances in the old 9mm cartridges that can give you chamber pressure problems. I have a friend that has several different 71's and he developed a problem with chamber pressure and stuck the bolt tight enough that he tried to open the action on the bench top bringing the rifle down to turn the bolt and broke the bolt handle off.
When you start loading those bottle neck cases with cup based bullets and use fillers between the wad and bullet base you can create a pressure problem if you get the base of the bullet below the neck. When the charge goes off and the wad and bullet base is in the shoulder you will flair the bullet base into the tapered shoulder and you will raise the pressure and you might loose your hand or worse.
I think the 9.5x47 has a long tapered shoulder if I remember right from what my friends 71 chamber that almost looks like a overgrown .40-44 getting the wads and bullet base below the neck you will create a pressure problem by flairing the bullet base.
Stay away from the twisted patch tail and fillers and use a flat based bullet and I think it would solve your problems. I don't think the original black powder factory rounds even used a wad.

Nice long neck on the 9.5x47r. Powder level is well up into the neck so everything is above the shoulder. I’m away for a couple of weeks but when I’m back I’ll try some of the above with the cup base bullet but will look for a likely flat base replacement. Not letting me upload a photo.