An ignition source to replace primers?

I’m sure there’d be obstacles to overcome but in theory couldn’t couldn’t a piezo igniter replace a primer?
Machine a primer shaped stud centered on the firing pin hole of the bolt face
Put a powerful Piezo igniter inside the bolt so the igniter element will:
First move forward into the flash hole and then spark when you pull the trigger.
The primer shaped stud could be tapered slightly and forced / held tight in the primer pocket to seal escaping gas.
Rimmed cartridges would make getting a tight seal simpler.
Flash hole has to be centered exactly.
A foil seal in the primer pocket covering the flash hole to contain the powder charge in the cartridge case could be easily penetrated by the igniter element.
Bolt face, primer pocket and flash hole tolerances would be critical. A strong spark and durable igniter element and easily ignited powder are needed too.
If spark from piezo isn’t hot enough an old automotive condenser or small capacitor would throw a hot spark.
I have a can of FFF somewhere. Have to see if a piezo igniter spark will work on it or a fast powder like Titegroup.

The bolt would need to hold tighter than the projectile otherwise you made a mini rocket

My mind played with the notion of an electronic ignition as well. I saw it more as a primer with an insulated center pin that would protrude through the flash hole a short ways, into the cartridge. Simply put the voltage to the primer and the spark would jump to the case, inside the case. Resize the case without decapping and reuse the 'electric primer' for the life of the case. I wonder what a brick of 1000 would cost?

Then I thought some more on it. What if the powder was not completely filling the case? You might get a spark and not have the powder close enough to ignite. How much of a delay would there be for the powder to ignite? Would powders act predictably when the ignition source is a single point that needs to propagate through the charge, as opposed to blasting a primer's worth of energy through the charge at once? Would it maybe take a two-stage approach to getting a reliable ignition, like a reactive compound coating the inside of the case around the flash hole. Eventually I got to the point where such development was beyond my pay grade and engineering abilities.

Anschutz developed an electric ignition system for their target rim fire rifles. They found they had to develope a different priming compound. Two base propellant is not susceptible to an electric spark. Priming compounds touch off propellant by spraying molten heavy metal droplets into the case.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/tec.../a211/1277311/

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/rem...unition-video/

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013085284/

Remington also made a trip down the electric ignition road and found it more trouble than it was worth. Also the shooting public avoided the rifles like the plague. I haven't seen one of those Remington's in years. I guess the collectors have them all now as ammo for them is non-existent. james

Ignition isn’t just a spark at the rear of the powder charge. If it was, flintlocks wouldn’t need priming powder. What is needed is a blast of hot particles going through the powder charge, igniting a considerable part of the granules’ surfaces. The flame then propagates through the rest of the charge.

Military electric primers use an exploding bridgewire. A high amperage/voltage electric current is sent through a resistance wire, a sort of miniaturized lightbulb filament. The bridgewire bursts into a plasma of white-hot particles that fly into the powder charge in the same way that the products of primer detonation do.

Piezoelectric sparks work with gas mixtures, like propane or butane/oxygen, but I doubt they’d elevate the temperature of nitrocellulose enough to get it started burning. Even the ones I see on gas grills and stoves have to crackle for a second or so before the flame off the gas ring starts.

My old man was a master electrician. WW2 radar/ sonar and he did TV school when he got out after war. He built a single shot black powder 22. Utilizing two 9v radio batteries and capacitors. His trigger was a micro switch. He built a bunch of them for friends at work. Big rage for couple years.
They depended most on the barrel.

If a primer cup, properly supported by the bolt face, can block ignition gas from escaping rearward then a primer cup shaped & sized nub on the bolt face can also. Of course the concentricity of the flash hole, primer pocket and cartridge would be critical. The nub could be minutely tapered to enhance seal and foil placed over the flash hole to retain powder in the case could also form a gas seal. A foil-ish seal, properly designed and placed could, when hit with a high amp spark, become molten metal spraying into and igniting the powder charge.
The use by Remington of a capacitor for ignition (M-Tecs, thanks for the links) would produce a significantly stronger spark than piezo, as anyone who has picked up an un-discharged auto condenser can attest. It’s been 40 years but that jolt as I recall would have ignited most anything.
Lots of ‘possibles’ and ‘coulds’ but I think the intensity of the spark and durability of the electrode are the biggest hurdles. That and money to develop the system.

If I recall correctly, about 20 years ago Remington was marketing a E-tronx priming system. I remember thinking it was clunky and unnecessary because it seemed like electronics would always fail at the most in opportune moment.

In the book "The Ultimate Do-It-Yourself Primer Cookbook' the author(M&M Engineering) goes over how he did electric ignition and why he did it the way he did. Also, a bit of detail about what didn't work(much of what is in this thread).

Short version is he put the whole piezo setup where a primer goes. The crystal was salvaged from a barbecue grill. He ended up having to put acetylene and oxygen into the case right before the bullet to get it to work every shot.

IMO, simpler to make primer compound or do it like how the Daisy VL worked if a person just wants to shot. But if someone wants a project, this would be interesting and I'd sure like hear about it.

I think the failure of the Remington system was that the customers rejected it. People didn't trust it, consumers had concerns about ammunition availability, the ammunition was expensive, there was some dependence on a battery, etc.
If the public will not accept your product, your product is doomed.
No matter how sound a design is, if it doesn't sell, you're done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder

I think the failure of the Remington system was that the customers rejected it. People didn't trust it, consumers had concerns about ammunition availability, the ammunition was expensive, there was some dependence on a battery, etc.
If the public will not accept your product, your product is doomed.
No matter how sound a design is, if it doesn't sell, you're done.

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That and the claimed instant lock time was less than honest. Yes, the electrons flowed to the primer instantly but the primer didn't allows fire instantly. Two buddies owned them and I shot one enough to not an inconsistency in lock time.

I remember seening write ups on electrically fired muzzleloaders many years ago. Don’t know anything else about them though.

I think that reloadability is not something that the ammo companies factor into their analysis, so if they wanted electronic ignition they’d probably produce a case with no primer pocket. Case maybe nonconductive plastic with a couple conductors. Perhaps change the entire powder chemistry, or load a priming charge of something like flash powder covered by foil to ignite the secondary charge.

Lighter weight would be an advantage, but the system would be more expensive and less reliable than the current systems.

Caseless ammo that was electrically fired would be the way I would do it. The propellant is the case. Push a button, round goes off, bullet exits bbl, nothing to eject, slide/bolt cycles, repeat.

Manufacturers do care about reload ability. Without reloading we would buy a lot less guns.

Electronic ignition works great with caseless ammo and even large rounds but small rounds in compact guns, Electronic ignition takes up too much space.

Caseless ammo has issues that make it not a good choice for most applications.

The 1950s ADEN aircraft machine gun had electric ignition....odd gun with a 5 cylinder chamber like a revolver ....and an odd story how a friend of mine got over 100 of them from the airforce,without having any kind of licence to have them....anyhoo,after a bit of a SHTF event,I had to drill all the chambers and barrels ,and take out the firing pins so he could keep them.......seemed to me the firing pins may have been platinum.....but they were all tossed in the armys security box,and later the federal cops and army guys had a scuffle over the pins....After I said they were platinum.