358429 357 vs 38 brass

I have a question for you guys who have a chronograph, more experience and anything to test pressure. I regularly shoot 357 and 38 special with this bullet, rifle (20 inch barrel) and pistol (4 inch barrel). While my pistol feeds anything I give it, the rifle becomes finicky with crimp band Keith’s (358429 and 358439 in 357 brass- too long). I’ve decided to just load the 358429/439 in the crimp band only in 38 brass. Using the same load in 38 special brass- 13.5 2400, what is the difference in FPS, would it increase given the smaller area of 38 brass- im assuming more pressure- will it gain anything from a smaller area? Will
Is loose something?
I’ve used this load in both for years, but only in 38 when I didn’t have brass (my mag brass was dirty etc). I know it’s a great safe load, just curious the difference in performance

I would NOT load 38spcl cases with 357 magnum load data. There is a reason they have 2 separate cases. The pressures you would get in a 38 case using the same load as 357 mag could cause serious issues. There are more differences between a 38 special and a 357 magnum than just case length. You have to consider case wall thickness, web thickness, and even the thickness of the case head.
If it were as simple as just load difference from the beginning, they would have just stamped the caliber differently.

Quality over Quantity

My experiences are a bit different. I started with 38 Special and when I got my 357 Magnum, being the curious kinda guy I am, I sectioned each case. The case heads, web thicknesses, and wall thicknesses measured very closely. So, I loaded some 38 Special brass to lower to mid 357 levels with no apparent problems (measured case head before and after firing). Of course I didn't use 357 data directly in 38 brass and I started low, with 38 "+P data" and worked up and only fired them in my 4" 357 Magnum (+P was not popular at that time). I just loaded a few to see if it could be done safely but went back to 38 data in 38 brass and 357 data in 357 brass as I didn't want any 357 loads in my 38 Special guns...

I have loaded a whole bunch of 357 brass with 38 data, but that's another story...

Mr.skimps that was Skeeter Skelton's load and bullet that he used for years in a Ruger flatop 357. Skeeter was a writer that wrote monthly for years in Shooting Times magazine. If it was too dangerous, he would have been in deep trouble with as many Jack Rabbits that he dispatched with that combination.

Actually, Skeeter's load with 13.5 gr 2400 in 38 SPL cases was with the 358156 seated out and crimped in the 2nd crimp groove. The pressure, as measured in a Contender 357 barre with Oehler M43 PBL, runs over the SAAMI MAP for the 357 Magnum cartridges (35,000 psi) at 37,900 psi. I perfer to use 12.5 gr Alliant 2400 which runs 33,200 psi and the velocity out of my 6" Ruger SS is 1245 fps. Accuracy is excellent.

While I have not pressure tested any 358429s with 2400 powder in 38 SPL cases I have pressure tested the similar 36-168K (169 gr) and the 36-175H 184 gr) cast bullets from 8 to 12 gr of Alliant 2400 in 1 gr increments. With the 36-168K the 12 gr load of 2400 pushed 28,900 psi. With the 36-175H the 12 gr load pushed 29,700 psi.

I’ve used this load 1000s of times. I just want to know what I’m loosing shooting the same in 38 brass vs 357 brass. Does anyone know? It’s very accurate in both, I’m just sick
Of loading in 2 different ways. I regularly shoot 358156 so I don’t need it as my load- but 358429 is close to my heart and I’d like to have a load always available and a 13.5 in 38 brass will happily function in anything I have. If there’s a deer in my yard, will I bag em with 38 brass like I did last year with 357? What is the overall
Difference of same load in 38 brass? Less velocity, less pound pressure? I’m not a math guy

And Larry- IMO the skeeter 38 load (lower crimp) felt anemic, was accurate- but boy, doesn’t pack it like elmers. That said, 358156 even with gas check the champ
For all rounder, just love the weight and shape of the 429

Sir, if you read "Sixguns by Keith" he said that that load was the one he used in the Outdoorsman S&W revolvers. Later in the .357 Magnum he used that bullet with 14.5gr in .357 cases crimped over the front band. He said the 357 was @100fps faster, but the .38 cases crimped in the groove was more accurate. I don't remember all of it and I may even be wrong on some points. Read it for yourself and consider it.......

Mr. Skrimps,
Like you, I have a 357 chambered Rossi 92 that cannot handle cartridges much longer than 1.600". In order to use the Ranch Dog 359-190-rf, I load them in 38 Spl brass, but at magnum levels. I've loaded the same brass many times and not had any problems (ie. enlarged primer pockets). 45 Colt brass is frequently loaded to levels above factory levels and no one bats an eyelash as long as the gun can handle the pressure. My load gets 1787 fps. I can't remember the pressure, but it isn't anything stoopid.

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

Actually, Skeeter's load with 13.5 gr 2400 in 38 SPL cases was with the 358156 seated out and crimped in the 2nd crimp groove. The pressure, as measured in a Contender 357 barre with Oehler M43 PBL, runs over the SAAMI MAP for the 357 Magnum cartridges (35,000 psi) at 37,900 psi. I perfer to use 12.5 gr Alliant 2400 which runs 33,200 psi and the velocity out of my 6" Ruger SS is 1245 fps. Accuracy is excellent.

While I have not pressure tested any 358429s with 2400 powder in 38 SPL cases I have pressure tested the similar 36-168K (169 gr) and the 36-175H 184 gr) cast bullets from 8 to 12 gr of Alliant 2400 in 1 gr increments. With the 36-168K the 12 gr load of 2400 pushed 28,900 psi. With the 36-175H the 12 gr load pushed 29,700 psi.

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You are correct on that, I was mistaken on the bullet. I read every issue while he was writing. Always had a dream as a young man about chasing jackrabbits with that same load. Hard to find them in south Arkansas, lol. Thanks for the correction

I wish people would stop referring to primer condition or primer pockets as a measure of chamber pressure.

I've had factory ammo that flattened primers, downloaded ammo that enlarged primer pockets and cratered primers.

I've also had ammo that was way over normal limits that had normal looking primers. Remember that basically the same primer cup for the small pistol magnums are used in .223 and other 50kpsi rifle ammo. And NO primer signs at that pressure.

Chronographs aren't that expensive. Buy one and check the velocity yourself. We can't rely on Larry for everything...

Looks like the OP got his answer and just wants to load in the 38 Special case but for those that want to optimize this classic bullet in 357s there is the option of trimming cases back to use the normal crimp at standard OAL. This allows a bit more capacity and postions the bullet closer to rifling than both other options. It also lessens the possibility of damaging or reducing the forward band by not having to crimp over it or shooting a magnum level load in a 38. Requires more effort but has been said before that's the difference between a handloader and a reloader.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PapaJ

I would NOT load 38spcl cases with 357 magnum load data. There is a reason they have 2 separate cases. The pressures you would get in a 38 case using the same load as 357 mag could cause serious issues. There are more differences between a 38 special and a 357 magnum than just case length. You have to consider case wall thickness, web thickness, and even the thickness of the case head.
If it were as simple as just load difference from the beginning, they would have just stamped the caliber differently.

Quality over Quantity

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I wouldn’t worry about the case differences so much as forgetting and slipping one of those short magnums into a .38 Special revolver.

If the OP wants an SWC that can crimp in the groove with a .357 case and not protrude from the cylinder, I suggest switching to the 358477.

my rossi 92 is very finicky, it doesn't even want to chamber 158 grain jacketed soft points in 357 brass smoothly but functions great with the 358156 in 357 brass, sounds like your wanting to jump right in with hot loads, others have posted some data. the Lyman books give lots of great data for the bullet I mention. its an oldie but there is a reason why it is still very popular, cuz it just plain works and works well in many applications.

"I wouldn’t worry about the case differences so much as forgetting and slipping one of those short magnums into a .38 Special revolver."

Just to be clear, when I talk about loading 357 loads using 38 Spl brass, the COL is still the length of 357, which means that these rounds are too long to chamber in any 38 revolver I've ever used.

I never was happy with loading that long Keith bullet in 357 cases where you had to crimp over the top driving band. Unless you did, the round was to long for many 357 Mag revolvers. So, my choice was to use 38 Special cases, crimp over the top driving band or....wait for it.....shorten some 357 Mag cases so I could crimp in the crimp groove. I went with option 3.

I chrono'd 13.5/2400/358429 cast out of lino(168 grs) in my Rossi 92. Load was in mag brass but taper crimped on the front drive band. Not quite as short as in .38 brass but pretty close. Load clocked at 1689 fps avg for 10 shots. Your load in.38 brass will be in the 1600fps range out of a rifle I would guess.

WOW. Lotta good info in this thread.....

For the past 15 years or so I've loaded my 38 Special cases with the 200-grain boolits out of a Lyman 358430.

My loads are mild and accurate at self-defense ranges from my concealed-carry choice, the Ruger 101 357 with a 2.25-inch barrel.

Velocity is around 570fps at 38 Special pressures. This is enough for me, as the boolits penetrate around five inches in wet newspaper, tumbling along the way. At the end of their track, the boolits are sideways in the newspaper, leaving a wide path to their destination.