Developing a load for a Pedersoli Sharps 1874 45-90

I've had the rifle for over a year, but only in last few weeks I started to properly develop a black powder load for it. I read all 4 Paul Matthews books, few other books written by other authors, and countless online resources so I know enough theory, but what I need is some practical tips for this rifle.

Specifically recently I reached a conclusion I need to use hard alloy (similar to Lyman no 2) (with black powder). This goes against everything I read as 16:1 should be the hardest alloy one should need.

The rifle has pretty fast twist rate at 1:18 inches, 6 lands heavy octagonal barrel 34 inches long. Really nice chamber described in few places online with a short 460 free bore, gently transitioning to 458.5 groove and 450.5 bore. It has tapered barrel that tapers to 454 groove and 446 bore at the muzzle.

I read in many resources heavy bullets like postell shoot great at long distances in this gun. However I'm currently shooting at between 100 and 400 meters so I decided to use a much lighter 330grain Lyman 457122 bullet which many mentioned as also shooting great. This provides for much more pleasant shooting experience due to much lower recoil.

I started testing it with fireformed cases full of powder compressed a tiny bit (around 1/32nd), with a 60 thou "wad" cut from a thick paper gasket material. I decided to wipe between shots to avoid grease cookies etc at the beginning.

My first tries were using pure lead unsized bullets (they dropped from the mold at 457.5). These shot all over the place (10 inch group at 100m), but they didn't lead the barrel. In fact no bullet has ever produced leading in this barrel!

Then I tried harder bullets cast a year ago using that bhn 15 antimony based alloy. They were cast using a "beagled" mold and then sized to. 4585~6 during a year they grew to. 459. Those shot very well on two consecutive days. A group only slightly larger than an inch at 100m.

So I cast additional bullets from that hard alloy and from 1:20. I opened up the sizing die so I could size hard bullets at. 459 without keeping them a year in storage. I also made another sizing die to size at 460 just to test that diameter.

It turns out hard alloy sized to 459 shoots the best(2 inch group - I blame it on the wind) closely followed by 1:20 sized the same(2.5inch). Hard bullets are few tenths larger despite going through the same sizing die because of higher springback during sizing.

Having discovered this I decided to try putting in a grease cookie and not wiping between shots. I loaded less powder to accommodate the lube. I used 1:20 alloy and sized boolits to 459.

The first group of 5 was around 5 inches. Then it opened up even more (to 8.5). There was quite a bit of wind, but that shouldn't move flying boolits more than 1.5inch. So in short it was pretty bad.

Next I'm considering repeating last test with the hard alloy.

All this leaves me with quite a few questions I hope some more experienced people can answer.

1. I read in multiple places winning shooters in bpcr competitions use at most 1:20/1:16 alloys and definitely not antimony containing alloys. However, they also use 500 grain bullets that have velocities in 1200 while I use a 330 grain bullet flying at 1450. Additionally the powder I use is pretty fast. It is so called multipurpose"powder. Basically a mix of 3f and 2f in one container. It is made in Czech Republic and its name is Vesuvit. It is a cheap powder, but I use it with really good results in my muzzleloaders. Perhaps a combination of fast twist and quick powder results in harder bullets deforming less. That's why they shoot better? Does this make sense? Did anyone see anything similar? The alloy is BHN 14~15 as (air cooled) cast. Or perhaps they shoot better because they are few thou larger due to previously mentioned springback?

2.Those 1:20. 459 boolits tested wiping between shots shoot much worse with a lube cookie without wiping. Should I keep the boolit and try changing the grease, powder, wads etc. Or should I leave the cookie, powder, wads as is and try smaller diameter boolits that hopefully will fit better into a fouled bore?

3.I would be very interested to hear if someone found a good "clean bore" load and then adjusted it successfully to work without wiping. If that's you please let me know, did you end up using the same boolit diameter (larger or smaller)? Did you have to test multiple grease recipes etc!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flynth

I've had the rifle for over a year, but only in last few weeks I started to properly develop a black powder load for it. I read all 4 Paul Matthews books, few other books written by other authors, and countless online resources so I know enough theory, but what I need is some practical tips for this rifle.

Specifically recently I reached a conclusion I need to use hard alloy (similar to Lyman no 2) (with black powder). This goes against everything I read as 16:1 should be the hardest alloy one should need.

The rifle has pretty fast twist rate at 1:18 inches, 6 lands heavy octagonal barrel 34 inches long. Really nice chamber described in few places online with a short 460 free bore, gently transitioning to 458.5 groove and 450.5 bore. It has tapered barrel that tapers to 454 groove and 446 bore at the muzzle.

I read in many resources heavy bullets like postell shoot great at long distances in this gun. However I'm currently shooting at between 100 and 400 meters so I decided to use a much lighter 330grain Lyman 457122 bullet which many mentioned as also shooting great. This provides for much more pleasant shooting experience due to much lower recoil.

I started testing it with fireformed cases full of powder compressed a tiny bit (around 1/32nd), with a 60 thou "wad" cut from a thick paper gasket material. I decided to wipe between shots to avoid grease cookies etc at the beginning.

My first tries were using pure lead unsized bullets (they dropped from the mold at 457.5). These shot all over the place (10 inch group at 100m), but they didn't lead the barrel. In fact no bullet has ever produced leading in this barrel!

Then I tried harder bullets cast a year ago using that bhn 15 antimony based alloy. They were cast using a "beagled" mold and then sized to. 4585~6 during a year they grew to. 459. Those shot very well on two consecutive days. A group only slightly larger than an inch at 100m.

So I cast additional bullets from that hard alloy and from 1:20. I opened up the sizing die so I could size hard bullets at. 459 without keeping them a year in storage. I also made another sizing die to size at 460 just to test that diameter.

It turns out hard alloy sized to 459 shoots the best(2 inch group - I blame it on the wind) closely followed by 1:20 sized the same(2.5inch). Hard bullets are few tenths larger despite going through the same sizing die because of higher springback during sizing.

Having discovered this I decided to try putting in a grease cookie and not wiping between shots. I loaded less powder to accommodate the lube. I used 1:20 alloy and sized boolits to 459.

The first group of 5 was around 5 inches. Then it opened up even more (to 8.5). There was quite a bit of wind, but that shouldn't move flying boolits more than 1.5inch. So in short it was pretty bad.

Next I'm considering repeating last test with the hard alloy.

All this leaves me with quite a few questions I hope some more experienced people can answer.

1. I read in multiple places winning shooters in bpcr competitions use at most 1:20/1:16 alloys and definitely not antimony containing alloys. However, they also use 500 grain bullets that have velocities in 1200 while I use a 330 grain bullet flying at 1450. Additionally the powder I use is pretty fast. It is so called multipurpose"powder. Basically a mix of 3f and 2f in one container. It is made in Czech Republic and its name is Vesuvit. It is a cheap powder, but I use it with really good results in my muzzleloaders. Perhaps a combination of fast twist and quick powder results in harder bullets deforming less. That's why they shoot better? Does this make sense? Did anyone see anything similar? The alloy is BHN 14~15 as (air cooled) cast. Or perhaps they shoot better because they are few thou larger due to previously mentioned springback?

2.Those 1:20. 459 boolits tested wiping between shots shoot much worse with a lube cookie without wiping. Should I keep the boolit and try changing the grease, powder, wads etc. Or should I leave the cookie, powder, wads as is and try smaller diameter boolits that hopefully will fit better into a fouled bore?

3.I would be very interested to hear if someone found a good "clean bore" load and then adjusted it successfully to work without wiping. If that's you please let me know, did you end up using the same boolit diameter (larger or smaller)? Did you have to test multiple grease recipes etc!

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A little different here but might give you some incentive
I shoot a Uberti 45/75 (told it has a Pedersoli barrel 1:20 twist)

Playing around at the local club heres 10 shots at 50 yards with a modified LEE 405-459-HB shot as a string no cleaning - this rifle has a problem walking up the target as it warms and I pulled a couple a little left but this is not so bad plinking .
Attachment 284262

10 shots at home at 100yards (me on a good day) no cleaning, shot as a slow string the one out of the group was first cold barrel shot. Mold is a CBE copy of the Lyman postell nice lube grooves but barely enough here - 470grainss we shortened the mold by one lube groove and driving band - he advertises this at .459 for the Pedersoli barrels.
Attachment 284263

My loads are simple -
a boolit with decent lube capacity sized .460, lube is neatsfoot oil and beeswax 50/50, alloy is fairly soft - if you took no 2 alloy and pure lead 50/50 you be close.
I make sure the boolit base is wiped clean of lube and there is an overpowder wad of 45 thou" HDPE cut full size .460" - .462",
72 grains of FFg powder (I make it), Federal LR primer,
Drop tube loaded and weighed charges I get Extreme Spread on the Chrono usually a touch under 10 FPS for a ten shot string - one fouler shot then 10 shots without cleaning
fireformed brass from Winchester 348 cases, NOT neck sized or FL sized,
I get a nice lube star at the muzzle and sometimes use a blow tube (weather dependent)

If you gonna shoot without wiping its about the lube I reckon - take a look at the LEE catalogue, the 459-500-3R, big lube grooves! that boolit will shoot all day and stay clean but they made the dang thing too pointy - it is brilliant out to 200 yards - maybe 300 - 500 on a dead calm day - but put some wind on it and it gets the wobbles (for my rifle and load that happens around the 400 yard mark)

FWIW
I dont like hard boolits
I detest lube cookies
I think your boolit too light, proly not fat enough, and way short on lube for what you want to do
I like boolits on the large size (surprised at the measurements from your Pedersoli - common thought is they like at least .459 or even .460 sized)
The .457 boolits I have tried in my '76 have not shot well at all
You could screen that powder to FFg size and use the screenout stuff in your frontloader?

Your Q no 2 = NO NO NO - you need to get the lube working well enough that the fouling mostly goes out the spout with every shot - you will have the initial light fouling but the lube keeps it soft and each shot blows most of it out - bore condition stays same shot to shot - its gonna take a right boolit - your barrel 34"? mine only 28" so its easier.

This is do able but takes some determination.

I think a lot of BPCR shooters using tin leads these days comes from conventional wisdom and what has always worked. I have shot harder antimonial alloys in my bpcr guns with great results, willing that bullet fit was proper, but I still found tin leads to give better results. Not by a mile, but hey, a half inch at 200 yards is a bunch in my book. It sounds to me like you have several loads that work well for you already, and could be better with a higher quality powder. It sounds like your rifle doesn't like a grease cookie, so forego it. You'll still end up having to wipe or blow tube between shots anyways. Why complicate it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

A little different here but might give you some incentive
I shoot a Uberti 45/75 (told it has a Pedersoli barrel 1:20 twist)

Playing around at the local club heres 10 shots at 50 yards with a modified LEE 405-459-HB shot as a string no cleaning - this rifle has a problem walking up the target as it warms and I pulled a couple a little left but this is not so bad plinking .
Attachment 284262

10 shots at home at 100yards (me on a good day) no cleaning, shot as a slow string the one out of the group was first cold barrel shot. Mold is a CBE copy of the Lyman postell nice lube grooves but barely enough here - 470grainss we shortened the mold by one lube groove and driving band - he advertises this at .459 for the Pedersoli barrels.
Attachment 284263

My loads are simple -
a boolit with decent lube capacity sized .460, lube is neatsfoot oil and beeswax 50/50, alloy is fairly soft - if you took no 2 alloy and pure lead 50/50 you be close.
I make sure the boolit base is wiped clean of lube and there is an overpowder wad of 45 thou" HDPE cut full size .460" - .462",
72 grains of FFg powder (I make it), Federal LR primer,
Drop tube loaded and weighed charges I get Extreme Spread on the Chrono usually a touch under 10 FPS for a ten shot string - one fouler shot then 10 shots without cleaning
fireformed brass from Winchester 348 cases, NOT neck sized or FL sized,
I get a nice lube star at the muzzle and sometimes use a blow tube (weather dependent)

If you gonna shoot without wiping its about the lube I reckon - take a look at the LEE catalogue, the 459-500-3R, big lube grooves! that boolit will shoot all day and stay clean but they made the dang thing too pointy - it is brilliant out to 200 yards - maybe 300 - 500 on a dead calm day - but put some wind on it and it gets the wobbles (for my rifle and load that happens around the 400 yard mark)

FWIW
I dont like hard boolits
I detest lube cookies
I think your boolit too light, proly not fat enough, and way short on lube for what you want to do
I like boolits on the large size (surprised at the measurements from your Pedersoli - common thought is they like at least .459 or even .460 sized)
The .457 boolits I have tried in my '76 have not shot well at all
You could screen that powder to FFg size and use the screenout stuff in your frontloader?

Your Q no 2 = NO NO NO - you need to get the lube working well enough that the fouling mostly goes out the spout with every shot - you will have the initial light fouling but the lube keeps it soft and each shot blows most of it out - bore condition stays same shot to shot - its gonna take a right boolit - your barrel 34"? mine only 28" so its easier.

This is do able but takes some determination.

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These are really nice groups.

I never tried a hollow base bullet in this rifle. Luckily my local distributor has LEE 405-459-HB mold. How did you modify it? Did you make it non-hollow base?

I do have Lee 459-500-3R mold, but I still haven't given up on working up a lightweight load.

Thanks for your lube recipe I'll try it. I'm currently using half olive oil half beeswax. I also have a batch of lube made from one of Paul Matthews books that is 50% beeswax, 25% neatsfoot oil, 25% potassium soap (the original recipe contains Murphy's oil soap - I can't get it here so I used so called garden soap or potassium soap)..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmanbuckhunter

I think a lot of BPCR shooters using tin leads these days comes from conventional wisdom and what has always worked. I have shot harder antimonial alloys in my bpcr guns with great results, willing that bullet fit was proper, but I still found tin leads to give better results. Not by a mile, but hey, a half inch at 200 yards is a bunch in my book. It sounds to me like you have several loads that work well for you already, and could be better with a higher quality powder. It sounds like your rifle doesn't like a grease cookie, so forego it. You'll still end up having to wipe or blow tube between shots anyways. Why complicate it?

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I think with my 34 inch barrel it is pretty much impossible to provide enough lube on a short 330 grain bullet without extra lube.

When I wiped the barrel at the end after firing 25 shots the fouling was nice and soft. There was a nice lube star at the muzzle, but for some reason that load wasn't accurate. As you say maybe the rifle doesn't like lube cookies. I'll probably try the same load with hard alloy just for the sake of completeness. Then if it still doesn't work I might try a felt wad soaked in melted lube. I had good results with them in muzzleloaders.

Are you getting a lube star with just the lubricant on the bullet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flynth

These are really nice groups.

I never tried a hollow base bullet in this rifle. Luckily my local distributor has LEE 405-459-HB mold. How did you modify it? Did you make it non-hollow base?
because of the tube magazine , me nervous , and soft primers, I milled the nose flat to .280 width (you have no reason to do that in a single shot), I also removed the tit from the baseplug so making a flat base boolit that works well over a wad - my LEE mold drops .460 - you have three nice big lube grooves - it shoots well I also made a two groove shortened version of that mold that I use alternately - it weighs in at 330grain and have clocked that at a neat 1500FPS from both my 76 and my Chiappa '86 - its a hair split between the two but I would pick the heavier one

I do have Lee 459-500-3R mold, but I still haven't given up on working up a lightweight load.

Thanks for your lube recipe I'll try it. I'm currently using half olive oil half beeswax. I also have a batch of lube made from one of Paul Matthews books that is 50% beeswax, 25% neatsfoot oil, 25% potassium soap (the original recipe contains Murphy's oil soap - I can't get it here so I used so called garden soap or potassium soap)..
I dont think my lube is special yours should work



I think with my 34 inch barrel it is pretty much impossible to provide enough lube on a short 330 grain bullet without extra lube.
Its an easy try with that LEE HB mold just take the base plug plate off and turn up another plug (brass works) that shortens it by one groove, works ok for me but you do have that extra barrel length

When I wiped the barrel at the end after firing 25 shots the fouling was nice and soft. There was a nice lube star at the muzzle, but for some reason that load wasn't accurate. As you say maybe the rifle doesn't like lube cookies.
Its me dont like em! (not so much the guns), but I have seen these cookie things work like tracers on occasion clinging to the boolit base for part of the journey - not good I think
I'll probably try the same load with hard alloy just for the sake of completeness. Then if it still doesn't work I might try a felt wad soaked in melted lube. I had good results with them in muzzleloaders.

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just for giggles try that LEE 500grainer - you might not find much better at the shorter ranges - If it works it points you back to lube and / or boolit diameter - or both maybe?

Firstly let me say that your "over thinking" the methods of getting accurate loads with your Pedersoli. A boolit that casts 0.4575" you are sizing to 0.459" when made of a hard 1:16 alloy???? I find that hard to believe! I shoot my 45/90 with an alloy carefully measured to 1:40 so that the boolit will obturate upon firing to completely seal the bore. I use a range of boolits and especially the "545gn PGT" (LHS of the pic) which is a custom lathe bored mold that casts 0.460" with a bore riding nose of 0.452" to align everything up at loading..

Your internal barrel measurements are all over the place, 0.4515"/0.458 at the breech and 0.450/0.458", with a 1:18" twist that is the Pedersoli standard and I have confirmed that measurement in all 4 of my rifles including my 1886 lever rifle in 45/70..

https://i.imgur.com/azoXSdK.jpg

I use Federal large pistol, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 70gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2.jpg

Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect! Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

Quote from The Pedersoli factory:

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

End Quote

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:

https://i.imgur.com/OwOZYlz.jpg

How do I know all this? Comes from 40 years of shooting Pedersoli rifles including competing in 'World Creedmoor"

https://i.imgur.com/HOAGCEHl.jpg

I'm guessing the biggest thing dealing you fits is that bullet you're using. 18 twist barrels don't always play well with bullets less than 450 grains.
16-1 alloy is a good choice, for grease groove or paper patch. Lyman #2 works alright with grease groove bullets.

The rifling twist of 1 - 18 is going to like heavier bullets or longer bullets better.

If you are using true BP experiment with compression of the powder and compress with a die not the bullet. I normally start with no compression no air space and work up from there in 2 grain increments. Heavy compression can swell bulge or bend the soft bullets.

Neck tension can cause bullet to swage down. I hand seat my bullets in the case and use a light neck tension. Being a single shot bullets can be seated light and little crimp.

If you are getting moist soft fouling and a decent lube star your lube should be okay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tmanbuckhunter

Are you getting a lube star with just the lubricant on the bullet?

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I wish! No this is with the cookie. With just the bullet last few inches before the muzzle are pretty hard crud (including a "star" of crud at the muzzle).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Firstly let me say that your "over thinking" the methods of getting accurate loads with your Pedersoli. A boolit that casts 0.4575" you are sizing to 0.459" when made of a hard 1:16 alloy????

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I believe I did say I beagled the mold so it casts at 462~464 depending on alloy and temp. Yesterday I cast 50 hard bullets that measure 464. I used two layers of aluminium foil to "beagle the mold". So I can cast anything from .4575(no Alu foil ) up to 464.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

I find that hard to believe! I shoot my 45/90 with an alloy carefully measured to 1:40 so that the boolit will obturate upon firing to completely seal the bore. I use a range of boolits and especially the "545gn PGT" (lhs of the pic) which is a custom lathe bored mold that casts 0.460" with a bore riding nose of 0.452" to align everything up at loading..

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Thanks for this. It is useful. I tried pure lead (close to your 1:40 alloy) but not at that large diameter. Pure lead cast from non-beagled mold was all over the place (10 inch group at 100m). Cast from beagled mold and sized to .4585 was better, but not even close to my 1:20 and specially the hard alloy.

This is my beagled up mold:
https://i.ibb.co/BLBZ1zB/20210611-085731.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Your internal barrel measurements are all over the place, 0.4515"/0.458 at the breech and 0.450/0.458", with a 1:18" twist that is the Pedersoli standard and I have confirmed that measurement in all 4 of my rifles including my 1886 lever rifle in 45/70..

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I thought I made a mistake in writing, but after rereading I posted correct dimensions. There is nothing "all over the place". The barrel is 0.4585 groove/0.4505 bore at chamber end and it is 0.454 groove /0.446 bore at the muzzle. A nice even cone.

I made a pound cast and a cerro safe. I repeated those measurements many times over the year. Cerro safe measurements taken 45min after casting were the same as the pound cast (now much later it is of course oversize) I would bet my house on the validity of those (breech end) measurements.
Here are they both below
https://i.ibb.co/wNz0Nbn/20210611-085514.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

https://i.imgur.com/azoXSdK.jpg

I use Federal large pistol, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 70gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2.jpg

Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect! Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

Quote from The Pedersoli factory:

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

End Quote

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.452/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:

https://i.imgur.com/OwOZYlz.jpg

How do I know all this? Comes from 40 years of shooting Pedersoli rifles including competing in 'World Creedmoor"

https://i.imgur.com/HOAGCEHl.jpg

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This is a really nice group.

If Pedersoli truly is cutting the rifling with a button straight, then "imparting a slight taper to it" (by boring I imagine) than the groove dimension at the muzzle must be the same. There is no way to achieve an undersized groove dimension at the muzzle.

However my Pedersoli has measurements I mention above. Is it possible I made a measuring error at the breech end. No! Is it possible at the muzzle? It is conceivable. Possibly the lead I slugged the bore with "sprung back", or possibly Pedersoli is not giving us(and possible competition) the whole truth? If you were in their shoes and you had some clever proprietary method of cutting rifling with an expanding button would you talk about it openly? Either way for our purposes dimensions at the breech end are the important ones (assuming no "reverse taper"). So I'm not going to argue about that point.

Additionally, the bullet I'm using is not a "bore ridding" nose design.

This is Lymans 459122 hollow point:
https://i.ibb.co/Jc99mpV/opplanet-ly...50122-main.jpg
It weights 330grain as advertised and 21.8gram in hard alloy from my beagled up mold (336grain). I'm not sure what to take from the "nose diameter" advice in relation to this bullet design.

Your mentioning of "The muzzleloading cap lock rifle" refreshed my memory. This is exactly where I read of use of harder bullets in target rifles. They had to make them from two parts. Nose hard to not obturate too much and base soft, because they were using muzzleloaders. I believe if they were using breech loading they would cast the entire bullet from a "hard" alloy. What was hard back then is disputable. Anyway this is page 116 of my copy of the book showing two part bullets I talk of:

https://i.ibb.co/W5W3tD7/20210611-091701.jpg

Coming back to your other point that shooting a Pedersoli Sharps is a science not another gun. There is a lot written regarding shooting them with large 500grain + bullets long range. I'm trying to develop a 100m target load(up to 400 for fun) for it so I have no need for 500grain of lead going down range. So I'm trying to use a lighter bullet design I read z lot good stuff about. Would it be easier to just get a postell and wipe after every shot? Probably. It would be even easier to load nitro powder. However, we're not really shooting those rifles because it is easy. We shoot them because it gives us pleasure. It would give me immense pleasure to have a consistently shooting 1.5inch group load at 100m with this light bullet (ideally without wiping, but blow tubing is also fine). Am I bonkers for going against "the science" of shooting the Pedersolis? Paper doesn't lie. I posted a target showing 1.5inch group with this exact bullet in another thread. I managed to shoot two groups like this with bullets aged a year as described elsewhere. So I know it is possible. That's why I'm trying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by country gent

The rifling twist of 1 - 18 is going to like heavier bullets or longer bullets better.

If you are using true BP experiment with compression of the powder and compress with a die not the bullet. I normally start with no compression no air space and work up from there in 2 grain increments. Heavy compression can swell bulge or bend the soft bullets.

Neck tension can cause bullet to swage down. I hand seat my bullets in the case and use a light neck tension. Being a single shot bullets can be seated light and little crimp.

If you are getting moist soft fouling and a decent lube star your lube should be okay

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I'm using a little bit of compression (I write down die settings rather than compression depth so I can't really say exactly how much. Around 2 mm I believe). I'm using Buffalo Arms compression dies for it. I settled on no neck tension at all and hand seating the bullet. I found that shoots best. Of course I had to lower the powder load when I used a grease cookie so perhaps this has something to do with my results being worse with it. I may have to try different powders. However, I thought to leave it for later once I chose the best bullet diameter and alloy. My reasoning being the right bullet will shoot better with even non ideal powder load than a bad sized bullet.

So I'm guessing there is no one else that shoots those rifles accurately with a 300-range grain bullet without wiping (possibly blow tubing). If there is I would definitely like to hear about their load.

Perhaps what I'm trying is impossible. Back in the day such light bullets (so called express loads) were sold as for hunting. I imagine that for hunting purposes a 5 inch spread at 100m is quite sufficient.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flynth

I wish! No this is with the cookie. With just the bullet last few inches before the muzzle are pretty hard crud (including a "star" of crud at the muzzle).




I believe I did say I beagled the mold so it casts at 462~464 depending on alloy and temp. Yesterday I cast 50 hard bullets that measure 464. I used two layers of aluminium foil to "beagle the mold". So I can cast anything from .4575(no Alu foil ) up to 464.



Thanks for this. It is useful. I tried pure lead (close to your 1:40 alloy) but not at that large diameter. Pure lead cast from non-beagled mold was all over the place (10 inch group at 100m). Cast from beagled mold and sized to .4585 was better, but not even close to my 1:20 and specially the hard alloy.

This is my beagled up mold:
https://i.ibb.co/BLBZ1zB/20210611-085731.jpg




I thought I made a mistake in writing, but after rereading I posted correct dimensions. There is nothing "all over the place". The barrel is 0.4585 groove/0.4505 bore at chamber end and it is 0.454 groove /0.446 bore at the muzzle. A nice even cone.

I made a pound cast and a cerro safe. I repeated those measurements many times over the year. Cerro safe measurements taken 45min after casting were the same as the pound cast (now much later it is of course oversize) I would bet my house on the validity of those (breech end) measurements.
Here are they both below
https://i.ibb.co/wNz0Nbn/20210611-085514.jpg



This is a really nice group.

If Pedersoli truly is cutting the rifling with a button straight, then "imparting a slight taper to it" (by boring I imagine) than the groove dimension at the muzzle must be the same. There is no way to achieve an undersized groove dimension at the muzzle.

However my Pedersoli has measurements I mention above. Is it possible I made a measuring error at the breech end. No! Is it possible at the muzzle? It is conceivable. Possibly the lead I slugged the bore with "sprung back", or possibly Pedersoli is not giving us(and possible competition) the whole truth? If you were in their shoes and you had some clever proprietary method of cutting rifling with an expanding button would you talk about it openly? Either way for our purposes dimensions at the breech end are the important ones (assuming no "reverse taper"). So I'm not going to argue about that point.

Additionally, the bullet I'm using is not a "bore ridding" nose design.

This is Lymans 459122 hollow point:
https://i.ibb.co/Jc99mpV/opplanet-ly...50122-main.jpg
It weights 330grain as advertised and 21.8gram in hard alloy from my beagled up mold (336grain). I'm not sure what to take from the "nose diameter" advice in relation to this bullet design.

Your mentioning of "The muzzleloading cap lock rifle" refreshed my memory. This is exactly where I read of use of harder bullets in target rifles. They had to make them from two parts. Nose hard to not obturate too much and base soft, because they were using muzzleloaders. I believe if they were using breech loading they would cast the entire bullet from a "hard" alloy. What was hard back then is disputable. Anyway this is page 116 of my copy of the book showing two part bullets I talk of:

https://i.ibb.co/W5W3tD7/20210611-091701.jpg

Coming back to your other point that shooting a Pedersoli Sharps is a science not another gun. There is a lot written regarding shooting them with large 500grain + bullets long range. I'm trying to develop a 100m target load(up to 400 for fun) for it so I have no need for 500grain of lead going down range. So I'm trying to use a lighter bullet design I read z lot good stuff about. Would it be easier to just get a postell and wipe after every shot? Probably. It would be even easier to load nitro powder. However, we're not really shooting those rifles because it is easy. We shoot them because it gives us pleasure. It would give me immense pleasure to have a consistently shooting 1.5inch group load at 100m with this light bullet (ideally without wiping, but blow tubing is also fine). Am I bonkers for going against "the science" of shooting the Pedersolis? Paper doesn't lie. I posted a target showing 1.5inch group with this exact bullet in another thread. I managed to shoot two groups like this with bullets aged a year as described elsewhere. So I know it is possible. That's why I'm trying.



I'm using a little bit of compression (I write down die settings rather than compression depth so I can't really say exactly how much. Around 2 mm I believe). I'm using Buffalo Arms compression dies for it. I settled on no neck tension at all and hand seating the bullet. I found that shoots best. Of course I had to lower the powder load when I used a grease cookie so perhaps this has something to do with my results being worse with it. I may have to try different powders. However, I thought to leave it for later once I chose the best bullet diameter and alloy. My reasoning being the right bullet will shoot better with even non ideal powder load than a bad sized bullet.

So I'm guessing there is no one else that shoots those rifles accurately with a 300-range grain bullet without wiping (possibly blow tubing). If there is I would definitely like to hear about their load.

Perhaps what I'm trying is impossible. Back in the day such light bullets (so called express loads) were sold as for hunting. I imagine that for hunting purposes a 5 inch spread at 100m is quite sufficient.

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!.5" is proly impossible (I cant see good enough to do that with an iron sight anyways so its a moot point) 2.5" with a lighter boolit is possible
I bought a Chiappa 1886 (45/70) heres the first shots I fired with it. The stray to the left is a first shot fouler, cold barrel then beside it a three shot group at 100yards - walked the range for a looky see then fired another three - once I put the gun down and move off my rest I dont seem to be able to get right back on the same focus - something enough trigger time might fix ? Anyway the purpose of this excercise was to decide if I keep this rifle as it had some serious problems - twas an easy decision based on those seven shots. I cleaned then went back and shot ten over the chrony without cleaning between and got under 10 FPS Extreme spread (just under)
These were all shot with that modified LEE at 335 grains - HDPE wad - fat boolit sized .460 - softish alloy - didnt expect it to be that easy but it was.
Attachment 284326

Beagleing the mold in that manner would create an elipictal unbalanced boolit?

I bow to superior knowledge - not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...dersoli-throat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Beagleing the mold in that manner would create an elipictal unbalanced boolit?

I bow to superior knowledge - not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...dersoli-throat

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Wallace --- I need some of your superior knowledge :grin: I have a Uberti 1876 (maybe 6 or 7 yrs) numerous blokes have told me they have Pedersoli barrels but I am certain they specified it as 1:20 twist (not the 1:18 you referred to in an earlier post as normal Pedersoli 45 cal twist) do you know the straight story here?
thanks
Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Beagleing the mold in that manner would create an elipictal unbalanced boolit?
That has to be a yes - no way out of that - however I think I would choose that over an undersized boolit specially in lighter weights

I bow to superior knowledge - not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...dersoli-throat

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......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Beagleing the mold in that manner would create an elipictal unbalanced boolit?

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Eliptical yes, unbalanced no. Also, after sending them through a sizing die that elipticity (is that a word) is on the order of 3~4 ten thousands of an inch. Pretty much the same as my as cast bullets. I'm not saying it is an ideal solution, but definitely useful to test various different diameters of the same bullet without spending lots of money on different molds. Also I have a lathe and I know how to use it :-) So I made myself 3 sizing dies of different diameters in addition to slightly opening my Lee 459 die.

Did you know using the same sizing die with two different alloys produces bullets of two different diameters? I didn't, but I found that out during this experiment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

l
I bow to superior knowledge - not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

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It is really cool to see the factory. Specially as one of my hobbies is machining. I saw this video some time ago, but I rewatched it very carefully and I can tell they missed some steps of the process. For one. They didn't show, nor did they talk about the whole "imparting a small taper process". He showed a 12 tooth broach and said "we cut 1/100 millimeter per tooth". If they run that broach fully through the barrel this would result in rifling 4 thou (0.12mm) deep. So to achieve 8 thou deep rifling we know they must have at least two of those. If they run both the barrel would have straight 8 thou deep rifling. Still no taper in this process. I may slug the muzzle end of the barrel again to settle this once and for all later as I'm curious myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...dersoli-throat

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I admit I only read two pages of this so far. I'll read more. No doubt it contains useful info. Thanks.

One thing I would like to add is that I saw that "Pedersoli chamber" drawing in few places. It is actually a first result if you search for a Pedersoli Sharps chamber in Google image search, but have a look at this microscope image and you'll see there are significant changes to the freebore length in my chamber. That drawing specifies 0.333 long freebore and 61 thou long step. If you look below you'll see there is not much freebore there. Rifling goes almost till the step! I thought this was just some casting artifact picking up machining lines etc so I looked inside the chamber with a borescope and indeed one can see rifling marks up to the step. Now, I don't know what the depth of that rifling right up to the step is. It looks pretty shallow under the microscope. I haven't seen a lot of modern chambers so I can't say with certain, but to me this looks like the leade starts a very short distance from the step. Local Pedersoli reseller here in Poland advertises their sharps as having special chambers cut(by Pedersoli for them) that allow them to sit the bullet further out front of the case. I always thought this is simply marketing talk, but perhaps I do have a different chamber with regards to freebore. It shoots well enough so far so no complaints there.

https://i.ibb.co/MZRXtN9/20210612-092118.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

1.5" is proly impossible (I cant see good enough to do that with an iron sight anyways so its a moot point) 2.5" with a lighter boolit is possible

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I posted this already in another thread, but here it goes again.
https://i.ibb.co/2KYkcvf/20210604-181735.jpg

This is a 5 shot group with one flier (my fault) and 4 fitting pretty much at 1.5 inch! Additionall 10 shots above are with a different sized soft bullet at a different sight setting. At 100m of course. This 5 shot group was with hard bullets aged a year. I had 12 of them. I managed to achieve such good results with them on two consecutive days and I've been chasing those results with fresh cast bullets since. One time, I would say it could be a coincidence, but two proves it is possible. However, this was with wiping between shots.

I shot this yesterday with same hard alloy, bullets sized 459.2 same amount of Czech powder however compressed a lot more to include a lube cookie and without wiping between shots! (bore cleaned after 5 shots). It looks less impressive because of vertical distribution, but I that is probably powder inconsistency. The question now is. Are those two fliers my fault, or is the lube stopping working? I'll find out in future.
https://i.ibb.co/Tb6Xny2/20210611-200519.jpg

Please note a light bullet remains supersonic at 100m. It experiences no transonic buffeting. It may have something to do with it. I measured muzzle velocity at around 1450fps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

I bought a Chiappa 1886 (45/70) heres the first shots I fired with it. The stray to the left is a first shot fouler, cold barrel then beside it a three shot group at 100yards - walked the range for a looky see then fired another three - once I put the gun down and move off my rest I dont seem to be able to get right back on the same focus - something enough trigger time might fix ? Anyway the purpose of this excercise was to decide if I keep this rifle as it had some serious problems - twas an easy decision based on those seven shots. I cleaned then went back and shot ten over the chrony without cleaning between and got under 10 FPS Extreme spread (just under)
These were all shot with that modified LEE at 335 grains - HDPE wad - fat boolit sized .460 - softish alloy - didnt expect it to be that easy but it was.
Attachment 284326

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This is good for first shots!

Regarding my load development I'll continue shooting the best load so far. However I think the powder I'm using is too fast. That's why hard bullets are more accurate. Soft ones must get deformed. Perhaps if I switch to a slower powder soft bullets will be even more accurate. Who knows. The thing is, I have a kilo of Swiss 1.5fg powder that has been sitting on a shelf for quite a while. I was saving it for a special occasion as it is 5 times the cost of Czech powder. Perhaps I'll try it soon.

Another "cheaper" option is to put just few grains (7) of Swiss and the rest of cheap powder. Some local bpcr sharps shooters had good results with this.

wrong post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bad Ass Wallace

Firstly let me say that your "over thinking" the methods of getting accurate loads with your Pedersoli. A boolit that casts 0.4575" you are sizing to 0.459" when made of a hard 1:16 alloy???? I find that hard to believe! I shoot my 45/90 with an alloy carefully measured to 1:40 so that the boolit will obturate upon firing to completely seal the bore. I use a range of boolits and especially the "545gn PGT" (LHS of the pic) which is a custom lathe bored mold that casts 0.460" with a bore riding nose of 0.452" to align everything up at loading..

Your internal barrel measurements are all over the place, 0.4515"/0.458 at the breech and 0.450/0.458", with a 1:18" twist that is the Pedersoli standard and I have confirmed that measurement in all 4 of my rifles including my 1886 lever rifle in 45/70..

https://i.imgur.com/azoXSdK.jpg

I use Federal large pistol, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 70gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2.jpg

Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect! Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

Quote from The Pedersoli factory:

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

End Quote

So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/0.458" at the muzzle to 0.4515/0.458" at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. You should just see where the lands have touched the boolit nose. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a bloody science, NOT just another gun! nya:

https://i.imgur.com/OwOZYlz.jpg

How do I know all this? Comes from 40 years of shooting Pedersoli rifles including competing in 'World Creedmoor"

https://i.imgur.com/HOAGCEHl.jpg

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Well said :awesome:/ Ed

Flynth couple of things you might want to think on in your accuracy quest.
The bullet you're shooting was designed to work in a cartridge that was chambered in a rifle with a 1 and 32 twist. You're trying to make it work in an 18 twist. The length of the bullet is .95 and the bullet that the 45-70 came out with originally was to be 1.1 inches long and cast from 16-1, and used a 1-20 or 1-22 twist.
Yes a sizing die will bring an out of round bullet base to round, but it won't do a thing for the nose...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don McDowell

Flynth couple of things you might want to think on in your accuracy quest.
The bullet you're shooting was designed to work in a cartridge that was chambered in a rifle with a 1 and 32 twist. You're trying to make it work in an 18 twist. The length of the bullet is .95 and the bullet that the 45-70 came out with originally was to be 1.1 inches long and cast from 16-1, and used a 1-20 or 1-22 twist.

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That is a very good point. I would've probably have given up on this bullet and gone to 500grains if I didn't shoot a 1.5inch group at 100m with it on two consecutive days (target shown below). Is it possible it is simply a coincidence of external factors such as wind gusts etc that those bullets that shouldn't work in the rifle landed so close? Possibly, but very unlikely. Then yesterday I had 3 in a 5 shot group shot without wiping that had vertical dispersion of 3inches, but around 1 horizontally. To me this suggests I'm on a right track. My theory is that the harder alloy I used allows this bullet to work with the fast rifling while a soft bullet gets deformed.

I'll get a 500 grainer work with this rifle. This is why I bought it after all,but if it has a other potential I'll explore it too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don McDowell

Yes a sizing die will bring an out of round bullet base to round, but it won't do a thing for the nose...

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I read a lot about "beagled" molds before I did it myself. I don't have lots of experience with them, but what I read makes sense to me. The answer I read given to your statement is that it doesn't matter if the bullet is eliptical, or any other shape other than round as long as it is symmetrical. There are hexagonal bullets (Whitworth) and a belted bullet. Both shot well... So that's my two cents. I may change my mind if I never get those 1.5inch groups again.

3 inches verticle 5 shots, at 100 is getting a bit extreme and is telling you the barrel is fouling out.
The nose of a beagle bullet will not be round, it'll be lopsided to the axis of the bullet...