paper patch for a ML

Ok, I have decided I need to try PP in my muzzleloader. My bore is .458 but my rifle likes bullets in the .455 range. The picture has three bullets I am going to try. First is a 457121PH ( lyman whitworth) bullet. Next is a .459-405-HB ( lee 45-70) bullet, and last is a 454-298M (Lee 298 gr mini) All were poured from soft lead.
I first sized the bullets to .452 and then I PP'ed them. But they were measuring .458. I used tracing paper that measures .002 and I gave them two wraps.
Since my barrel likes .455 what I did is wrapped the bullets and ran them through the .454 sizer. I also ran another batch through the .452 sizer. I am planning on trying these when it is warm enough. I know that the paper is supposed to separate at launch and sizing like this will not help, but how much will it hurt? this rifle is a gun that I shoot out to 300 yards. Ron
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...lletssmall.jpg

I tested some of the bullets. Some I liked some I didn't. The Mini's were ok but i didn't have enough of them to form much of an opinion. The Whitworth bullets were the same. I only had three and the group I shot was ok but not great, and it was 2.850" at 100 yards. Again I need to do enough to get a better opinon. The Lee 459-405-HB's were the bullet I had the most of and got a better Idea what it was like. This picture was of a group I shot with paper patch and without. On both loads I used a wad between the bullet and powder.
I was using 90 gr of powder with this bullet. I don't know what the Speed was I didn't take the chronograph. I did notice that the paper patch bullets hit about 3" higher so pressure must have been higher and speed must have also been higher. I shot some other bullets naked and with what little I did shoot paper patched I am sure I will be shooting more of them. Ron
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...-07--45-70.jpg

.............What's the twist in your 45 cal ML'er?

.............Buckshot

Buckshot, I am glad you got on here I need to pick your brain. It is a 1-18 from Green mountain. The Rifle is a TC Renegade with a Lyman 57 SML rear sight and a Lee Shavers globe front with a level.
I remember you shoot a Whitworth. When you paper patch do you size after you roll them? How do you do it and what is your target size? What I am doing is, I size to .452 then roll them. Then I size to .454 then again to .452 because the .454 are just a little too hard to get down PP. The barrel likes a .454 naked bullet but the PP needs to be .452 with the paper. They go down DANG snug.
I had one target that I shot 10 shots into. I used three different bullets and reset the sight for all three. The ten shot group with the sight rest still was only about 5" at 100 yards. I am thinking that PP is the way to go, but I need to shoot them more. I want to also find out if I still need to use a over powder wad. Do you use one? Here is what the rifle looks like. Thanks Ron
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2250...in_mag_2_5.jpg

...............Ron, in addition to the Whitworth I had built a replica Rigby type long range muzzle loader (below).

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

This rifle also has a 32" Green Mountain barrel on it, probably the same as yours. It has an 18" twist also. From it I've shot mainly resized grease grooved conicals. These would be the Saeco # 745 and the Lyman Postell. For shorter ranges I like the Lyman 475gr 457-121 PH which you've used. See photo's below. This is a superb boolit just lube sized and shot.

Those gomers I shoot with on Tuesdays won't let me use the Whitworth or Rigby anymore when we shoot muzzle loaders. But that Lyman 475gr slug is nice to cast and simple to use and I've never had one bounce off the target yet.

http://www.fototime.com/103B7CD70CB7B7A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/BE135D6E73B7ADE/standard.jpg

A tang sight I modified for the Rigby. The front sight is a modification of that on the Swedish gas operated semi auto Ag42b. I cut off the base and then filed it to match the flats of the barrel and soldered it on. It has windage adjustment (the tangsight doesn't) and it looks like it belongs. It doesn't take inserts but in real LRML comp only a blade is legal anyway.

http://www.fototime.com/F504EF365E1B572/standard.jpg

These are all the boolit designs I've used in the Whitworth and Rigby, except for the swaged ones below. All these have worked, to a degree. The cast hexagonals you don't have to worry about :-) What worked best in the Rigby was the Saeco #745's, and they were unpatched. These are cast of pure lead with 2% tin added. Lube sized to .457" and then run up through a Lee type .451" size die. At this OD they will very slightly engrave the lands.

The patched boolits I've shot in the Whitworth have all been rolled on a caselube patch and then sized to .454". The lube is removed, then patched. After that they're swaged hexagonal. You CAN take the as cast slug and lube size it to .457", then .454", then to .451". Clean the lube out and paper patch. This will give you about a .458" diameter again. Lube the patch and run it through the .454 & .451" die again. This works okay but it isn't the way to go for true long range shooting.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

For best accuracy at 600 to 1000 yards with a paper patched slug you need a boolit of about .443", which will yeild a dried patch OD of .450/.451". Those above weigh a bit over 530 grs and are within 1/10th gr in weight.

http://www.fototime.com/7F892387129D594/standard.jpg

I haven't done any spectacular shooting with the patched boolits to date as our range only goes to 200 meters. The above target is 5 rounds at 100 yards with the patched slugs. Yes it has a (*^&*(@# flyer, but 4 are in 1-1/4". The load was 85.0grs (thrown) of Swiss 2Fg dumped from the muzzle (no drop tube), a lubed felt wad and then the slug. Lube for the patch was the thin Bore Butter in a tube designed for patched RB's, and applied at loading. The slug will almost fall of it's own weight down to the felt wad.

My Whitworth as made by Parker-Hale is a copy of an 1862 Military LR rifle. It has the typical military 3 step base with a ladder rear sight . The front sight is a Pedersoli tunnel type taking inserts. So it's a 'V' rear and I use a post up front with a 6 o'clock hold.

Swiss BP is about the closest we have to what was used 'back then' and is a hot sporting type powder. For true competition shooting the powder charge would be weighed and dumped through a drop tube. Some would wipe the bore to the breech. I wipe to the wad. The true English shooting reguires shooting through the fouling.

You asked about wads. I've used a card wad, 2 card wads sandwiching a grease cookie, a card wad and felt wad. The current winner of the 1000 yard LRML international competition used no wad. The patched slug set directly on the charge.

I notice in the photo that your patches look translucent. If the lube has penetrated the paper, that's bad news. A lube that will be good for seveal weeks in moderate temps is vaseline and beeswax. As long as it's compatable with BP and won't penetrate the patch immediately it's worth checking out. The original British 480gr patched slugs for the 577-450 were coated with beeswax then run up through a heated die before loading.

My one claim to fame (in my own mind) was shooting with the Whitworth at the range in Sierra Vista, AZ. I had put a scope mount on a Turk M38 8x57 for my brother who lives in Sierra Vista. On a trip over I was bringing his rifle back and figured we could get in some range time. The range is almost half way to Bisbee and well off the highway. It's a huge facility as they definatly have pleanty of room!

Only the main range was open, and it's the one they use for silhuettes and it went to 600 yards. When not shooting silhuettes they have hanging steel at each 100 yard line. These are circles, squares and diamonds averageing about 1 ft square. My brother was soon banging steel out to 400 yards with his old beater Turk.

The 600 yard line is a ledge or road bulldozed into the side of a ridge. The rangemaster pointed out that there was a plate hanging out there. Once pointed out you could see it since it was black and the raw dirt was a light reddish. It was a black speck. I had an apureture up front but the speck of a plate would disappear in it so I swapped to a post.

Other then concrete benches the range had nothing else. Our home range has 6 sand bags at each. I put the soft guncase over my rangebox as a front rest and the button my fist. I'd never shot at anything that far away before. Since I had a 200 yard setting I used that and whanged a plate at 200. There were a few other shooters around and they thought I was a loony. I suppose they were used to a Hawken and patched RB's.

The rangemaster said he'd spot for me when I said I was going to try the 600 yard plate. That really got the kibitzers going :-). I stood the ladder up and raised the elevator to the "6" position and let fly. I was shooting scaled Saeco #745 lubesized at .458" then run through a .454" die, and a cardwad under it. I don't recall now where the miss was, but it was close so I didn't mess with the sight and just adjusted my hold. I was shooting 85.0grs of Elephant 2Fg.

The day was beautiful. Crystal clear, bright and a very slight breeze from 3 o'clock. Just enough air movement to lift the BP smoke up and slowly away. On my 3rd shot I hit the plate!!! The sequence was aquire the target, squeeze off the shot, and in a second or so the rangemaster would say HIT! A couple seconds later you'd hear the faint clang come floating back to the line. I never really got used to that. I'd fire and see the smoke lazily drift off a bit, and I'd think "Crap, I missed!". The the rangemaster would say, "HIT" and then the tinny clang would sound.

Talk about neat! I did have one guy ask me if the rifle was a Whitworth. I fired 25 deliberate shots at it and hit it 18 times. One guy down the line had been sighting in one of those Steyr Scout rifles. When I was hitting the plate he'd come down to watch and said he couldn't get his rifle sighted in with a scope and here I was shooting a muzzle loader with iron sights and hitting at 600 yards.

Did I get a big head? Kinda just a little, but inside I was sure excited. Naturally you act like it ain't no big deal. I can sure see what makes people so enfatuated with it.

.......................Buckshot

My barrel is a .458 and the problem I am trying to get over is what size do I size to? I am sizing them from .457 & .459 down to .454 and then to .452 I then roll them and they are back to about .458 and they wont go down. GM says my rifle is a .458 but it shoots best with .454 to .455 with naked bullets. So after I roll them I have a .458 again. So I add a tiny amount of Hornady great plains lube and size to .454 then I put them through the .452 This gives me a bullet that fits tight but goes down. The reason the patch looks see through is bacause it was lightly lubed ad sized. The paper I am using is tracing pad paper.
I need the bullets to be between .452 and .454 after the paper is added. What should I do? Thanks Ron