Felt greased wad under bullet

OK don’t kill me here. I’m just about finished loading a batch of 45-70 rounds, 32grains 5744, C.O.L. 2.552. 405 grain FP

I understand the use of greased felt wads with BP and the need to have uniform powder compression in that arena —- why didn’t I use black? I searched all over the county for proper ingredients for Paul Matthews BP bullet lube and finally had to order from Amazon….

SO….my thing is that powder is WAY below where the bullet would seat so would I gain or cause any issues by keeping the powder against the primer With a greased felt wad? The wads are Muzzleloaders originals lubed with Precision Lube 2000 and I don’t know it won’t degrade smokeless. I’m certain I’m OK without then, I’d rather ask a stupid question than do damage…..

Many Thanks,

Art

I do not use a filler but most reading will suggest that the wad against the powder will be blown forward, upset the bullet base and ring your chamber.

That is very old cast boolit lore. There were graphite impregnated wads "Ipco" irrc that were used in the 1930's according to Frank Marshall.

In the 1990's there were "soft gas checks" basically sheets of lube that were pushed over the case mouth before loading the boolit. IMHO both were solutions to poor quality boolit lube or fit. Good lube, good fit, and no leading.

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Taz, I’ve shot a LOT of bullets with several of my 45-70s using a Dacron “plucked” filler. First, most of them didn’t shoot any better with a filler than without. A couple did. Using 5744 (I use a lot of it) it made no difference at all. About ringing the chamber: there are current posts on ringing at will. IE, ringing it on purpose to prove it can be done. I have no doubt myself that if someone spends some time trying it and can do it at will, it can happen if you repeat those circumstances not knowing that it can happen. My own trials are with the use of fillers and the use without. To date I have found very few loads that got better with fillers. I don’t use them with 5744, I shoot lighter loads most of the time, and my Win/Miroku High Wall shoots sub 1moa without fillers with many different loads. I would NOT use a felt wad in my gun simply based on my experience of not needing anything in the case regardless of air space in the load. Good luck if you do use it, but I don’t see any advantage and lots of potential risk.

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Originally Posted by Thumbcocker

That is very old cast boolit lore. There were graphite impregnated wads "Ipco" irrc that were used in the 1930's according to Frank Marshall.

In the 1990's there were "soft gas checks" basically sheets of lube that were pushed over the case mouth before loading the boolit. IMHO both were solutions to poor quality boolit lube or fit. Good lube, good fit, and no leading.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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In the case of CFVentures product, the instructions were to press the sheet of wax over the case mouth after the powder had been installed in the case. Then when seating the bullet, be sure that the wax remained fully in contact with the base of the bullet. Not for use in a case with a short neck as the wax may fall through and be loose on the powder.

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Originally Posted by NSB

Taz, I’ve shot a LOT of bullets with several of my 45-70s using a Dacron “plucked” filler. First, most of them didn’t shoot any better with a filler than without. A couple did. Using 5744 (I use a lot of it) it made no difference at all. About ringing the chamber: there are current posts on ringing at will. IE, ringing it on purpose to prove it can be done. I have no doubt myself that if someone spends some time trying it and can do it at will, it can happen if you repeat those circumstances not knowing that it can happen. My own trials are with the use of fillers and the use without. To date I have found very few loads that got better with fillers. I don’t use them with 5744, I shoot lighter loads most of the time, and my Win/Miroku High Wall shoots sub 1moa without fillers with many different loads. I would NOT use a felt wad in my gun simply based on my experience of not needing anything in the case regardless of air space in the load. Good luck if you do use it, but I don’t see any advantage and lots of potential risk.

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Thank you SO much. That’s the way I was leaning but because of a lifetime of reloading (243, 308, 30-06, 300 mag, 338 mag) my personal experience has been to use the powder that fills the case almost full. That is where I get the best accuracy. A Win/Miroku 1886 is exactly what is going to shoot these along with a Sharps I’m dying to shoot.

I really appreciate the input of everyone here!

Art

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Originally Posted by Dusty Bannister

I do not use a filler but most reading will suggest that the wad against the powder will be blown forward, upset the bullet base and ring your chamber.

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I have read all the stuff about wads and positioning. I only use them with black powder but only solid dry material. I know shooters who load smokeless and position a wad on the powder and seem to have no problems. But a friend loaded .45-70 with lead bullets and 5744 with a card wad down on the powder. His Shiloh Sharp's developed a ring in the chamber.
I don't know the mechanics of what happened but I have seen the chamber and know it happened. A Shiloh Sharp's is an expensive rifle to mess up.
Maybe I'm paranoid but I will stick to other methods when loading large cases.

I got a bright idea several years ago to use wonder wads. Bad mistake. I squired a load in my beloved Mountain Gun. Fortunately I detected before I squeezed off a follow up shot.

At first the loads were very nice. The wonder wad acted like a cleaning agent towards lead deposits but after they sat a while in hot weather the BP lube leached into the smokeless powder and deactivated it.

So I would be cautious about any lube that could migrate to the smokeless powder.

Three44s

The only safe place for a lube wad is united with the base of the boolit. I've used them for some years in long barrels where leading toward the muzzle indicated lube starvation, but the sequence was always card wad, lube cookie, boolit, seated sequentially to form a column with no spaces. Having the greased wad somewhere in the middle and slamming into the base of the boolit is asking to ring the chamber.

Having said all that, using a lubed wad or lube cookie under a boolit done safely is also a great way to get lead out of a barrel. Back when I used commercial cast in pistol matches, which were generally too hard (and hard lube, too) for the pressures I was loading to, I had leading. A few rounds of reduced loads (smokeless) with a card wad/lube cookie/boolit and many barrels were lead free in short order. Sure beat lengthy scrubbing sessions with rod, bore brush and solvent. As a number of people have noted, nothing raises pressures quite like reduced volume in the case, so when adding a card wad/lube cookie, the load must be reduced. My after-competition revolver-cleaning loads were reduced by ~1/3rd, the idea being to entertain myself by poking a few holes in the target with a mild load and leave the barrel with nothing but a layer of lube in it..

From my research on the use of filler, it appears there must be contact between the base of the bullet and the powder to avoid the possibility of ringing. So, my question after reading the content in this thread so far is: what would happen if we loaded powder, then Dacron to the base of the bullet and then the greased wad, card wad or grease cookie under the bullet so there was no free air space?

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Originally Posted by blackthorn

From my research on the use of filler, it appears there must be contact between the base of the bullet and the powder to avoid the possibility of ringing. So, my question after reading the content in this thread so far is: what would happen if we loaded powder, then Dacron to the base of the bullet and then the greased wad, card wad or grease cookie under the bullet so there was no free air space?

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Dacron is not a “shock absorber”. It’s a .5g “plucked” piece of fluff that only acts as a nearly weightless web of fibers separating the powder from the base of the bullet. It’s sole purpose is to keep the powder sitting right on top of the primer. It will do NOTHING to prevent ringing if you put a hard wad in the case that is NOT in direct contact with the base of the bullet. Again, Dacron is not a wad, wadded material, or any type of wad product. It’s “plucked/lofted” to the max to act like a loose web of fibers to keep the powder down on the primer so it doesn’t migrate away from the primer due to positional movement. It isn’t “packed” into the case, it’s just gently pushed in and sticks right up the the top of the neck. The bullet being seated pushes it in a little further but doesn’t pack it down.

GONRA reminds everybody NOT to use "Dacron" or similar fillers in NECKED cartridges.

Use too much (hard to say in advance wot "too much" IS) and filler can "stick in the neck"
and otherwise get compressed to its ULTIMATE DENSITY.
(Dacron material w/o any air voids).

Such a GOB (no longer a "Harmless Fluffy Filler" but a Gooey Plastic GOB)
must then be EXTRUDED THRU THE NECK
instead of JUST BLOWN DOWN THE BORE.

Extrusion pressures are FAR, FAR HIGHER than our chamber pressures.
KABOOM !!!

I researched chamber ringing until I couldn't read any longer and am convinced it can and does happen. From my understanding, it's the shockwave from the blast which causes it, not the wad. The key to prevention is to leave the wad far enough forward of the charge to allow the powder to slump which disrupts the shockwave enough that it doesn't squarely impact the bullet base. I make my wads slightly oversize and from two layers of felt (spray glued together) so they're wider which helps them stay put when placed between the bullet and powder.

Dacron filler can be used in straight or necked cartridges when done properly. See the sticky and notes by Larry Gibson on how to use that material.

I've used it on a couple of .308 loads to improve accuracy when using reduced powder loads. Other loads the accuracy is not as good, just depends on the load density of your setup and the powder being used.

Wads are ALWAYS kept at the base of the bullet. Even if there is free space in the case the wads need to be in contact with the bullet.

I've shot a lot of 45/70, 30/30, 35 remington with dacron filler. The powders were 4198, 5744 mainly. The main difference that I noticed was the filled loads had less shot to shot velocity variation due to the position of the barrel when the gun was fired. I liked this because I hunt from treestands and aim down a lot. Never used a wad too.