shooting the .32 mag today and????

ill try and make this short,, been shooting the tar out of my 32 ruger latly,and the more i shoot it the more confused i become!!! To start off, i am/was a br shooter, competing in i.b.s. score shooting (so i do know how to make a rifle cook!) After someone recomending the rcbs 98 swc bullet to me, i bought one new,and am trying to work up a load for it. This might be THE most accurate bullet ive ever fired in a handgun. groups measure .600-.660 (with full case fulls of lil-gun) , but if i count the fliers,,, it shoots about 2-2.5 inch!!!! How do i get rid of the fliers? Also, the extreme spread of velocity is always 120-140 f.p.s. Why? And the biggest annoying thing lately, ill fire 5 shots of a 10 shot group (around 1.25 group), load the next five in the cylinder,and the first shot is most always 2-2.25 inches low,and 150 f.p.s. higher velocity!! This has happened all weekend to me, and is consistent. Only theary i have is that in the time it takes for me to load the next five the barrell and lube inside it cools down,and this is whats causing it. Is this possible? (living in maine,,, you have to deal with the cold) I am using lil gun powder because i havnt found anything better as of yet. 9 grs on up to (you dont want to know!) produces velocity from 1100 to 1340 f.p.s. I just want to know how to get rid of the fliers!!! This gun could be a consistant sub- inch gun without them! previous best bullet was the lyman311316 that will shoot about 1.5 inch groups,which is exellent in my opinion. But i think i can get consistant under inch groups,there close, but have to find out how!!! Anyway, the big 2 question,,, what is causing the big E.S. in velocity? (doesnt have much to do with the group size) and what is causing the WIDE fliers? I mean 5-8 bullets in a glob,and one out at least 2 inches? Using win mag primers and heavy crimps,and the loads are burning clean. I do not want to try jacketed (never been one down the barrell) this thing still endede up to long,and i apolijize, but ive been shooting so much lately that these things are starting to annoy me!!!

Mainiac, you already know from your BR shooting skills what the problems are, but you just are not realizing it under the heat of the situation. 1) lube hardens very quickly and becomes a restriction causing a velocity increase for a shot or two. Especially in winter shooting, choose a lube with low viscosity. 2) Use the primer giving the most heat and the least amount of force, i.e., small pistol federals. 3) Use a faster powder to make the peak pressure less effective, by allowing the pressure curve to peak closer to the cylinder gap. Your current powder probably would be really kosher when the weather turned warmer and the lube not as much as a problem. ... felix

felix, am i to understand that this is common in cold weather? (first shot 2 fast and low? I have been using your recipe since last year for lube, been using win wspm primers and starline brass, think i should try federals ha? maybe i should just quit until the summer comes... Never shot much cast before, it is a facinating thing to do. With my bench guns, i just tuned the vertical out by adding powder. Speaking of the starline brass, im getting whole lenth body splits, not by pressure but i think theres something wrong with my lot? federals never done this to me,but starline is all i can get. Whats up with the case splits? have run these cases up to almost 1400 f.p.s and primer pockets are still tight. but im loosing the cases 4-6 each time out.

Felix came up with the bore conditions--I'll dwell on the mechanical.

The Ruger (or any) SAA-type mechanism releases the cylinder ratchet from advancing hand pressure/influence as the hammer falls. The bolt notch dimensions ALWAYS has a bit of tolerance with the bolt, so there will always be the potential for a little radial "side shake". Most double-action revolver mechanisms place a very slight bind on the cylinder by pressing in on the advancing hand fulcrum motion just as the hammer/firing pin strikes the primer, essentially "locking" the bolt notch against the "strike" side of the bolt--very slightly. This can have the effect of eliminating or at least lessening one variable in the cylinder/barrel alignment equation--at least, potentially.

One trick the old bullseye shooters did with their revolvers was to fire a series of targets with a single chamber, looking for a "bad" chamber. My uncle has a Colt OMM that has one chamber filled with rubber cement to prevent its use in competition.

Deputy Al

I had to go down to my safe and take a look at my Ruger Blackhawk old model to check what that cylinder hand did and it did what I thought. On most single action when you pull the hammer back that hand advances rotating the cylinder and as long as you hold the hammer ALL THE WAYS BACK it stay fullly extended, but when you release the hammer to let it catch in the full cock sear that hand drops back some. On my Ruger the drop back is almost 1/8 inch. There's no ways that hand can go all the ways back down in the rest position as long as the hammer is back. Of course when the hammer drops the cylinder hand retracts fully. But in no instances when the gun is ready to fire is the hand putting any kind of pressure what so ever on the ratchet. Now in Colt double actions and Smiths and perhaps other firearms it does.

Joe

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Originally Posted by Deputy Al

One trick the old bullseye shooters did with their revolvers was to fire a series of targets with a single chamber, looking for a "bad" chamber.

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Even with my old sweetie, a S&W m19, one chamber in the cylinder was a bit we-id. I took white nail polish and numbered each, put six targets on the holder, and fired groups with each chamber. Chamber #6 always shot 3" high and 2" to the right while the other five were dead on. As this still produced a MOA (Minute Of A**hole) sized group at 25yds, I never bothered to diagnose exactly what the problem was, and sold it to a friend who doesn't care as long as it can ventilate the occasional can.
I suspect one of your throats is off a bit. Slug them and find out. As Felix said, though, cold does strange things to your loads sometimes, just like heat does. Work up a load on a mild day and when you shoot it in the summa, the pressure spikes and it won't group. Shoot it in the winta and the pressure bottoms out and the same thing happens.
The only way to keep from going off the deep end with the cabin feeva is to dig out the shotgun and shoot a few rabbits when it's colder than a witch's tit. Or keep the ammo in the truck with the heeta running and warm up the revolver between cylinders.

Mainiac, check the cylinders like Al, Versifier, and Joe say. I have found problems in that arena with most of my revolters, but for the most part I just live with that. You can lower the felix lube with using very little lanolin, or hardly any at all. Up the amount of oils to make the lube thinner. If you are using the lube from the "big melt", switch it out for that gun for winter use. It has a fair amount of viscosity, intentionally for the wilder and/or hotter guns out there. Taking out verticals for 6PPC bullets usually can be done that way you did it, by increasing the Culver a couple of clicks. If that cannot be done, a faster lot of the same powder at the same Culver will fix the problem. This trick won't work with boolits for the most part. Need to go down to a faster powder type at least. Like going from 322 to 133. Notice the factory 6PPC's came out using N130, not 133. This faster speed cures a lot of ills, but not necessairly peak accuracy. ... felix

first-i never use mag primers with 32 mag,only small pistol.second- i use starline brass and have some with 10+ loadings using book max loads and havent lost a case yet.ive reloaded early federal cases from factory loads and had splits after 2-3 loadings. ive also found my ruger SS groups better a little slower than max. i always get a flier but i know i have a throat a bit tighter than the others.

No one has mentioned case tension differences! Use the wrong dies like RCBS and the tension can be all over the place and can cause all the flyers.
If you seat boolits slow and careful and can feel some go in real easy and some real hard it will sure cause the problem. Makes the SD and ES go all over the place.
See, you guys are forgetting already!
Mainiac, do the feel test when you seat boolits and get back to us.

44man- i didnt forget,i wuz just testing you. my rcbs dies came with a .3105 or .311 expander plug for .312 JKTed bullets.i got a .312 + or- that i use for .313 cast. OK,i did forget.

Thats too loose even for jacketed! Polish the expander until the boolits fit tighter. A good fit with a cast boolit will let you see the grease grooves and drive bands on the outside of the brass. Not real good for dead soft boolits though as it will size them a little. I would shoot for an actual .310 to start. You could also just buy a Hornady expander.
RCBS dies that were the very worst were the old .45 Colt dies. They were set for a .454 boolit. After many complaints and some gun writers getting on them, they changed the expander and sizer. But I don't think they did anything to their other calibers. I use a lot of RCBS stuff, but never buy their dies anymore.

I just read your post again and seen you have a larger expander for cast.
You do not need a larger expander for cast boolits unless you shoot dead soft stuff. Try the original expander before you do anything else. Try to figure .002 under boolit size for the expanded brass for a harder boolit like WW's.

Mainiac,

Yep. You have all the knowledge and were given good advice as to your porblem / options.

If you have a bad cylinder, Versifier told you how to find out.

44 man told you about case tention aiding ES. I think he SQUEEZES cases in his sleep. Just realize that as you increase bullet pull now you are going to change ignition characteristics and you may have to cut back powder charge to compensate. And Felix nailed the lube thing.

I have spent the last 4 years doing research on cold weather lubes. I won't use a lube that contains lanolin in cold weather. Won't say that you can make it work, only that I can't. I would be continuing testing this year too, but haven't had the cold weather hold up. My average shooting temperature this winter is in the mid 40s.

But of all the problems to have, yours is conquerable.

"I am using lil gun powder because i havnt found anything better as of yet. 9 grs on up to (you dont want to know!) produces velocity from 1100 to 1340 f.p.s. I just want to know how to get rid of the fliers!!! This gun could be a consistant sub- inch gun without them! previous best bullet was the lyman311316 that will shoot about 1.5 inch groups,which is exellent in my opinion. But i think i can get consistant under inch groups,there close, but have to find out how!!! Anyway, the big 2 question,,, what is causing the big E.S. in velocity? (doesnt have much to do with the group size) and what is causing the WIDE fliers? I mean 5-8 bullets in a glob,and one out at least 2 inches? Using win mag primers and heavy crimps,and the loads are burning clean."

mainiac

I've been shooting the .32 H&R for quite a few years, S&Ws and a 10" Contender until I came across a very nice Ruger SS with 6/15" barrel a few years back. Kept the Ruger and the Contender. I have not had very good results with Lil'Gun in this cartridge or the .357 or the .22H. I know others report excellent accuracy. I had excellent accuracy in all three cartridges - IF I discounted the flyers. This was regardless of cold or warm weather. I'm not trying to get into a pissin' contest here just stating what my results were. I also chronographed most all the test loads and found as you have that the extreme spreads were quite high. I have always equated high extreme spreads with lousy groups or flyers.

In the .32 H&R I went back to the old stand by of Unique. A 313631 (WW-1105 gr) over 5.5 gr of Unique runs 1284 fps out of the Ruger with an ES of 43 fps for a 12 shot string. The 12 shot groups run right at 1 1/2" at 25 yards off a bench with sand bags. That is the same average velocity range I was getting with Lil'Gun and H110 loads but they had higher ES's and poor groups - 3-4". The Unique load is my "magnum" load for the .32 H&R. If I want more gun than that I go to a .357.

I had a little better results with somewhat closer ES's using 115/118 gr cast bullets but they are a little more bullet than I wanted in the .32 H&R.

I have not done much with with magnum loads an 85-90 gr bullets. I shoot gobs of Lee's 314-90-TL over 3 gr of Bullseye. It runs 1003 fps and is also extremely accurate and fun to shoot. Very deadly small game load BTW. I size all my cast bullets for this cartridge .312 and lube with Javalina for use in the Ruger and Contender. The S&Ws required a .314 for best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

LARRY GIBSON LARRY GIBSON.....Doggone boy....man am I glad to see you back from the camel playground...that is if you are back and not on pc there. I really missed you. :drinks:

Joe

l.gibson, it might be the powder choice causing the fliers, but it shoots the 311316 (121 grs with check) and a case full of lilgun into 1.5 inch or so consistantly,no fliers. I really dont want to rely on this heavy bullet and speed,because i worry about battering the little gun in time. i also shoot a lee 93 grain round nose bullet,with either 3 grs of bullseye or 4 grs of unique and these loads shoot 2 inches or under. But its the rcbs 98swc bullet that has the little gun acting like a rifle, and the more fuel you put in the boiler, the better it shoots! deputy al, i think it was you that was touting this bullet wasnt it? It isnt a perfect bullet for this gun, seated in the crimp groove,its about 40 thousandths from coming out of the end of the cylinder,long,long bullet compared to the 311316. My gun has 309 groove and a .3105 throats. Sizing this bullet in a .311 die, the crimp groove pretty near dissapears. It carries a very tiny amount of lube. Ive always been a fan of rcbs dies,and in my bench guns,a have all custom made dies to get the bullet run out/ bullet fit perfect. When i bought this gun i bought a set of lee dies just for the hell of it, and i cant get over how consistant the loads are. Measuring bullet run out,,they are all under .002! And yes,44 man, im well aware of consistant bullet pull, and with these dies im getting nearly identical neck tension. Cant say anuff for these dies,just wish theyed get rid of the o-rings and alunimiom crap. I could ramble on for hours on this subject,but dont want to beat the old horse to death,so i will close. 1 other thing i found last night,, i pounded one of my .311 sized dies threw a throat,and it went quite hard. While i was at it,i pounded the same bullet threw the other throats,and kept going round and round until the bullet was a real slip fit,which measured .3105.One of the throats are noticably looser than the other 5 and have marked this chamber and will test it out and see if this is where some of my fliers are coming from. Have to stop now,as my 2 fingers are getting a cramp!!!!! thanks for answering my questions,,,mark

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Originally Posted by StarMetal

LARRY GIBSON LARRY GIBSON.....Doggone boy....man am I glad to see you back from the camel playground...that is if you are back and not on pc there. I really missed you. :drinks:

Joe

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StarMetal

Yes, I'm back and either post from home or occasionally from work. The wife did considerable remodeling while I was gone (she did a great job by the way) and the garage still had boxes of "stuff" stacked in my "space". It is absolutely amazing how much crap one accumulates over the years. We have been going through most of it and "down-sizing", well okay we've been throwing a lot away and giving a lot to Goodwill. Anyways I've just managed to get some area cleared out to get back into fun shooting. I'm looking forward to many interesting conversations with old and new friends here. Drinks? Why of course!

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Glad you're back in one piece and still in the frame of mind to want to shoot. Wish all that went over there could have had the same luck.

Joe

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Originally Posted by mainiac

l.gibson, it might be the powder choice causing the fliers, but it shoots the 311316 (121 grs with check) and a case full of lilgun into 1.5 inch or so consistantly,no fliers. I really dont want to rely on this heavy bullet and speed,because i worry about battering the little gun in time. ,,,mark

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Mainiac

That's just pretty close to my observations with Lil'Gun, seems to work ok with heavier bullets. But like you I was not wanting to use the heavier bullets. The Lyman 313631 was designed for the .32 H&R and is a very well balanced bullet for it. It is a GC though but I don't mind as I really shoot hundreds more of the Lee 90 gr SWCs. I checked my old notes using the S&Ws and find that 5 gr of Unique was very accurate with a .314" commercial cast 95 gr SWC. The throats of my Ruger run .3095-.310 also but I've found that bullets sized .312 will chamber with no problems (Starline and Federal Brass) and are more accurate than if sized to .310". The lube grooves also aren't quite as "wiped away" at .312 and hold more lube. I would still bet you'll get the best performance and accuracy with Unique using those RCBS 95 gr SWCs. BTW; I load both the 90 gr Lee's and the 313631s on a Dillon 550B with Hornady dies. I've had no problems with concentricity or bullet pull either.

Larry Gibson