Dangers of case tumbling

[Patrick L]

On the nearby thread about the threats of lead exposure, Pat Marlin commented that tumbling cases posed a health risk. I think this deserves a thread of its own, since I had never heard of this, and I've been tumbling my cases clean for about 20 or so years now.

I take no special precautions since I never thought there was any danger. I have a vibratory type machine. My reloading room is in the basement, so that's where I run it. Sometimes I keep the lid on, sometimes I just run it open. To empty, I have always just dumped the lot into a homemade sifter I made out of a 5 gallon pail. Sometimes I just fish thru the media by hand, especially if I am doing just a small batch, like 20 pieces or so.

Mr Marlin (and all others of course,) would you please post specifically what the danger is ? What specific precautions should we take ?

[9.3X62AL]

Tumbling media does its job in a lead-contaminated environment, and absorbs those lead compounds as a part of the cleaning process. Bullets leave lead traces inside the case neck and in lesser amounts throughout the cartridge cases, and priming compounds usually contain lead azide and lead styphnate compounds that are deposited inside the cases and elsewhere throughout the firearms firing them.

I don't think the handling of tumbling media or the cases within same poses any more of a hazard than the handling of lead alloys does--just keep in mind that the dust and particles in the media are also contaminated, and avoidance of processes that allow the dust to circulate in the air is a good practice. Once my media gets "dusty", it gets tossed.

Just don't handle food, drink, or smoking materials without having washed your hands thoroughly.

[porkchop bob]

IMO , the lid should always be securely fastened to the tumbler before it is turned on.

This reduces the noise and eliminates the dust.

I have a BurKing and it can reduce fresh walnut to fine flour if left running for 24 hours. If the lid is not attached, the entire room is layered with this dust. If there had been a return duct in that room, the dust would have been everywhere in the house. Do not ask how I know.

An irate wife can poise a health hazard.

I tumble brass until it is bright and shiny. More than is really needed. The lead smears found in the inside of the case at the case at the mouth becomes a part of the tumbling media and a part of the dust.

In other threads, I read of lead balls being tumbled to make them more uniform and to trim off the spruce stub. I think it would also add micro-dimples, similar to those found on golf balls, which would improve accuracy and distance. Some if this lead will end up in the media.

I often read of grain silos exploding when just the right conditions are present – lots of grain dust, dry, and a single spark. I do not know if corn-cob and/or walnut dust have the same properties as grain dust, but that is another consideration.

Then just living has its hazards. One should strive towards achieving a fine balance in everything you do in life.

Bob

[waksupi]

I keep my vibrator out in the shop. I have a large tupperware storage container, that I sit the tumbler in, fill it with cases,put on the cover, and plug it in. When it is done, I dump all the cases into a kitchen collendar, and shake until all the media is out of them. Then, take out the vibrator, dump the media back in the hopper, and am good to go again. It does a good job of controlling the dust, and makes separating the cases from the media much easier.

[montana_charlie]

I don't have a tumbler, though I am considering getting (or building) one.

I clean cases (which have been presoaked in water and Dawn) in an ultrasonic unit, using a commercially available cleaning concentrate. Then they are rinsed under the hot water tap until no more 'suds' appears.

I get my hands in the cleaning solution only rarely...mainly because I don't like to be dripping on the surroundings. So, I assume that the 'lead hazard' from cleaning cases (which I never even considered until today) is controlled to a great extent by the fact that everything remains in the liquid...which gets discarded after about five batches of brass.

If I pick up a tumbler, it will just be to 'shine up' the brass from time to time.
If anybody has a 'spare' rotary tumbler...six pounds or better...send me a PM.
CM

[AnthonyB]

Waksupi, you might want to edit the first line of that last post before the C-man sees it. Nah, on second thought, leave it alone - I can't wait to see where he takes that one! Tony

[waksupi]

Waksupi, you might want to edit the first line of that last post before the C-man sees it. Nah, on second thought, leave it alone - I can't wait to see where he takes that one! Tony


Tony, I did consider the ramifications on the possibilities of that line. However, Carpetman needs some sort of a recreation, and I am not one to deny it. Besides, once he sees the word ramification, he will be out of the house, looking for a "date".

[NVcurmudgeon]

My tumbler is a Midway vibratory. I always leave the lid on to cut down on the noise. I never noticed any loose dust, maybe because I always add polish to the media. Naturally, I always wash my hands before eating and drinking. At my advanced age, having survived playing with mercury, unleaded gas, cars without seatbelts, ungrounded electrical outlets, leaded paint, some really nasty chemicals in Navy paint, smoking, and many other things, I tend to not be too excited over the latest chemical scares. Reasonable ventilation and personal hygene have enabled me to dodge a lot of what the government and media say will kill you. Who believes either of them, anyway?

[Bigjohn]

Even here downunder, I have heard about the alleged lead contamination via case cleaners. I can not recall who raised the issue in an article; but they tested the reloading room of a cast shooter. While they found some around his casting equipment; where he apparently took the most precautions; they were surprised about the amount of lead contamination located around his case tumbler and sifter.

Hence I run my case cleaner outside when the weather allows it.

John.

[charlie / sw mo]

sometime ago i saw a post somewhere stateing that puting a used fabric softener sheet in your tumbler will pick up a lot of the dust . i dont usualy remember to do it but when i did i thought it worked ok

charlie in sw mo

[db2]

My case tumbler is out in the garage, because of the noise. I use my hands to get the brass out because I do not have a shifter. My boys think that is the best part fishing brass out. Because I use brass polish with the media your hands turn black, so we always have to wash our hands when done. I have always thought that lead posioning was mainly from ingestion not from touching. Maybe I am wrong here?

porkchop bob
about 7 years ago the De Bruse gain elevator exploded in Wichita. I was about two miles away at the time. It was loud enough to cause me and a freind I was with concern. It took the whole side off of the elevator. It killed a couple of workers if I remember right. Yes, dust will explode if you get the right fuel to air mixture right but, from what I was told it would be hard to breathe with out a respirator. Thats alot more dust in the air than what our case tumblers can put out I would think.

db2

[versifier]

db2,
You are correct about ingestion with metallic lead. Lead oxide however can be inhaled and absorbed through the skin. It is often seen as a yellow powder in the bottom of your melter when you empty it. I clean mine outside on windy days then wash up carefully.

[georgeld]

When I was a kid and the folks were building our house Dad hired some hardwood floor finishers to install and make it right. We burned trash in a brick ashpit. There was a nearly dead fire still smouldering when me and one of them too the sander bags out to dump the dust. I was too short to reach the top so was standing there holding it while the other guy dumped them.

When he dumped the dust from the first one it exploded and blew two sides of the brick walls out of this thing that was about five ft square. I've been mighty careful with dust of anykind around fire and sparks since.

I've also seen several grain silos after they'd been blown up from sparks when I was trucking around the country. Damned right I'm impressed!

Have also caught a face full of dust from the media with jewelers rouge in it. That stuff is NASTY! I usually hold my breath and try to pour it close so it don't dust up much. That stuff is dusty when it's new. So throwing it out when it dusts wouldn't be very financially benificial.

I never gave a thought to it having lead in there too. Makes sense though. Sure has a lot of nasty stuff from the brass though. I usually try to put a pair of rubber medical gloves on when handling it. As I start sorting soon as it's dumped. I have a screened pan that sets on a bucket. It's not very good as the hole's will either catch, and plug, or let .22's go thru. OTher than stirring by hand there's not much of a way to dump it out of the cases unless a few at a time. Am planning on getting a turning sifter from Berrysmfg.com soon as I can. They've got the best vibrator to be found, LT warranty on the plastics, and 3yrs on the motor. Got mine in 2000 for $50 and got it back Friday from having a new motor put in it, cost $16 plus mailing it to them. Good products from a good honest small company.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I run my lil ol' Lyman tumbler with the lid on. I make sure it is stopped completely before I take the lid off and I carefullyyyy wipe up the dust with a tissue that is collected on the centre piece, it is about 1/8 to a 1/4" thick and you definetely do not want to breathe it in. I don't know whats in it, but it sure don't look nice. I'll have t take a pic of it one day. MIck.

[shooter2]

I attended a lecture many years ago put on by a professor in the school of dentistry at the university of MN. They had done a study to try to determine why the suicide rate in dentists was higher than the population in general. One thought was that the mercury in the amalgam was being inhaled. They put a petrie dish in every corner of the room and checked it daily. Every dish had small particles of the amalgam caused by the removal of the old fillings with the high speed drills.

So what has this to do with tumbling brass? Just that it is the fine stuff you need to worry about. It would seem to be a good idea to leave the cover on the tumbler while it runs for a number of hours. If you use a squirrel cage to separate the brass from the media it might be best to do that oudoors in an effort to remove it from the air in the house. And, as was pointed out, when the media breaks down, change it. The stuff is cheap so why take a chance. Food for thought.

[carpetman]

Waksupi--"I keep my vibrator out in the shop. Take out the vibrator and am good to go again". Just think if you had wiring in your outhouse you could use the vibrator there too.

[Glen]

I add about a shot glass of water to my tumbling media every so often to keep it damp and that takes care of the dust problem (walnut hulls, don't do this with corn cob media...). Gets the brass cleaner faster too...

[sundog]

Glen, not water, but I tried a little Hoppes #9 [perfume] for the first time about a year ago in a batch of media that was already well used and well impregnated with Midway polishing compound. I was more than pleased with the results. sundog

[Willbird]

I seem to recall the bit about the lead from tumblers being in Dick Lee's loading manual.

Bill

[1Shirt]

Well now, guess I will move my tumbler out of the basement loading room and into the garage with a fan blowing over it and out into the open. One more reason to belong to this web. And who says old dogs can't learn new tricks.
:coffee: 1Shirt!:coffee:

[fecmech]

" I have a screened pan that sets on a bucket. It's not very good as the hole's will either catch, and plug, or let .22's go thru. OTher than stirring by hand there's not much of a way to dump it out of the cases unless a few at a time"

Gentlemen--After I tumble my brass I pour the whole mess into a "lingerie"(sp?) laundry bag. These bags have about 1/4" mesh which lets the media out while holding the cases in. I put the lingerie bag with it's contents into a kitchen garbage bag and hold the neck of both bags closed with one hand while I shake the lingerie bag around inside the plastic bag with my other hand. This separates the media from the cases and the dust is contained in the plastic bag. When I'm done I pour the media back into the tumbler. You can get "lingerie" bags at most super markets for a couple of dollars. Nick

[Gussy]

I have gone to the ceramic media and a tumbler. I take the drum outside and run a hose in it until the water's clear, then separate the brass, (black powder really makes for dirty water).

When I do use a viberator, I dump an ounce or so of paint thinner in each time to keep the dust down. Works good.
Gus

[Ricochet]

Yeah, the Lee Handbook is where I first saw it.

[pjh421]

A guy called Hotdog on another site uses vinegar to clean his casings. I tried it and it works fine. Soak them in straight vinegar for half an hour (salt or anything else is unnecessary), agitating occasionally. Pour the used liquid through a funnel, back into the vinegar jug for re-use. It seems to work just as well when it's well-used as it does when it's brand new, although I do put a single thickness of paper towel into the funnel just to catch some of the crud. Rinse the casings in clean water and then spread them on an old cookie sheet. Turn on the oven to 200 degrees & dry them on the top rack if it's not a hot, sunny day. They won't be super shiny but certainly clean enough to reload. Vinegar is CHEAP and I'm pretty sure it won't kill you.

Paul

[windwalker]

waksupi said

Quote:

Tony, I did consider the ramifications on the possibilities of that line. However, Carpetman needs some sort of a recreation, and I am not one to deny it. Besides, once he sees the word ramification, he will be out of the house, looking for a "date".
that cracks me up:drinks: :drinks: :drinks: :drinks: [smilie=w: [smilie=w: [smilie=w:
bernie

[arkypete]

Glen
I use isopropal alcohol in walnut hulls. It helps cut the grease/oils off the cases, helps clean the walnut hulls a bit by making the dust and crud stick to the side walls of the tumbler, where it can be brushed out.
Jim

[wills]

Dump the cases in the vibratory tumbler while they are still wet, and run the tumbler outdoors with the lid off. Use slotted spoon to remove cases from tumbler.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I seem to recall the bit about the lead from tumblers being in Dick Lee's loading manual.

Bill


The stuff Robert Lee mentioned was lead stypyhnate (spelling?). Apparently the old primers used it. I have some old once fired Lake City 3006 brass that needs tumbling. I will wait until I'm ready to dispose of the media and I will throw it out after that. Mick.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Someone mentioned blast media being used on a previous thread. Anyone had any experience with this? It doesn't seem to be much cheaper here.

[Ringer]

I used to notice dust when screening brass after tumbling in a dillon vibrator. I began using a product called Berry's brass bright in the media,and now I see a black coating on the walls of the vibrator when I have finished. I clean it off with gloves on and paper towels wet with mineral spirits.There is almost no dust, and the media stays cleaner a lot longer. The brass gets a lot shinier too. Regards, Ringer

[Ricochet]

The stuff Robert Lee mentioned was lead stypyhnate (spelling?). Apparently the old primers used it.

Lead styphnate is the base component of all modern noncorrosive primers, except for the ones labelled "lead free," which are based on diazodinitrophenol instead. The lead free primers haven't made a big splash on the market yet. Styphnic acid is trinitroresorcinol, a close relative of picric acid and TNT. It has three nitro groups (NO2) and two OH groups on a benzene ring. "Normal" lead styphnate has the two hydrogen atoms on the OH groups replaced by a single lead ion, Pb++. "Basic" lead styphnate has two PbOH groups per styphnate ion, so has twice as much lead for the same amount of explosive. Most companies use normal lead styphnate. I read somewhere that Federal uses basic lead styphnate, which is a little more sensitive.

Lead styphnate isn't the only source of lead or other toxic materials in primers, which are loaded with priming mixtures, not a single compound. Lead peroxide is found as an oxidizer in many primers. Barium nitrate's the other common primer oxidizer. The barium oxide or carbonate resulting from its burning isn't highly toxic, but barium absorbed into the body can be toxic. (The commonly used barium sulfate X-ray contrast for GI X-rays isn't absorbed, but inhaled particles of barium compounds reaching the lungs probably would be.) Antimony disulfide is a common fuel in primers, and antimony is also a toxic metal. (Powdered aluminum is another common fuel in primers. Aluminum oxide isn't generally thought of as a toxin, but you've got to wonder how abrasive the alumina produced by such primers is to bore surfaces.)

None of this stuff is going to amount to anything when we're shooting outside, but it does get to be a consideration when shooting indoors or when tumbling fired brass.