The 1908 Bazilian M98 Mauser

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

I plan on buying a M1908 Mauser in 7x57 pretty soon as a "winter project".

Have any of you such a rifle?

Are there any stories about what they typically are able to do "as issued"?

All/any technical information will be of high interest. Things like bore & grove diameter, what to expect in along the lines of barrel condition ~ all that stuff.

Thanks in advance, good evening,
Forrest

PS ~ By the way, if anyone has an old Lyman/Ideal 287308 mold out there I would be very interested in making contact.

[fatnhappy]

I have a single cavity 287308. shoot me a PM.

[MtGun44]

My std milsurp 7x57 J-bullet load will shoot into about 2" or better with my 1908 Brazilian.

Have not tried cast in it yet.

Bill

[NickSS]

I have owned several 7X57 Mausers over the years and most will shoot Jacketed bullets pretty good but all of them that I have slugged were larger than .264" groove diameter. All have been in the .287" to .289" range. Incidentally some 7X57 Jacketed bullets I bought somewhere years ago measured .287" diameter. From all of this I think most 7X57 military rifles are larger than the now standart .284" diameter.

[NoDakJak]

I have owned eight or nine of the Braziian 1908s and still shoot the best of the lot. I don't know the condition of the later lots to e imported as mine were purchased about twenty years ago. At that time most of the barrels were pretty bad but what was even worse is that most of them had moderate to severe corrosion below the stock line. If it checks out decent then snap it up. The one that i am shootint at present is one of the sorriest looking rifles that you have seen. it was very crudely sporterized by a half witted Buba. He cut the fore end off and very crudely bent the bolt and drilled and tapped it. I bought it with the idea of using the reciever to build a 257 Roberts but decided to shoot it first. I had purchased a very beat up four power Tasco for ten dollars at a yard sale and I mounted it in a cheap set of Weaver cloned rings. I was totally flabbergasted to find that it shot under half inch groups at fifty yards. I would definetly like to upgrade this jewel but I'm scared to tamper with it. It will definetly be my new pickup rifle. Neil

[WILCO]

I had purchased a very beat up four power Tasco for ten dollars at a yard sale and I mounted it in a cheap set of Weaver cloned rings. I was totally flabbergasted to find that it shot under half inch groups at fifty yards.

Whisper to it gently while slowly caressing the stock! It just might be a former sniper rifle currently down on it's luck. :mrgreen:

[koehn,jim]

I have 2 that were bought 30-35 years ago in one of the first batches to be imported so they are very nice condition. I shoot cast with both of them. The dutchman on here makes a beautiful scope mount that replaces the standard rear sight with no modification. Midsouth has a lee 6 cavity soupcan bullet that shoots the best for me. I cast them from wcww and press on the gas check without sizing and they cast at .288 which works very well. I use 24 grains of I-4895 and get within 2 inches at 100 yards and stays on metal targets at 300. I am still refining the load so If you get the rifle stay in touch and I will share info. The RCBS 145 grain works but casts about .285 so the Lee works better for me.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/93DF7AC146DC001/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/D3A7BD464EE81B6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FAE697FAF99DE7A/standard.jpg

............I bought 2 M98/08's from RSI in Geneseo, IL in the mid 90's for $89 each. This is one. The other was as nice except for being in a Birch stock. I converted that one into a 7x57 sporter for my daughter. No way was I going to alter this one! I need some better photo's. The handguard looks like it came from the same piece of timber as the tiger striping matches. It shoots as well as it looks. Both had excellent barrels and I still have the 29" one from the rifle I sporterized, as I used a NOS large ring FN made 20" barrel for it. I think at the time those barrels were $20 apiece.

http://www.fototime.com/51033A5247B82E1/standard.jpg

This rifle shoots the RCBS 7mm-168 or the Lyman 285405, 150gr Loverin superbly. The above 2 targets were fired at 50 yards using the RCBS slug. They were lube-sized .285", with thrown powder charges. They were both full caseloads of right at 60grs. My favorite 'regular' cast load for all my 7x57's is 42.0grs of WC872, dacron, 7mm-162 and it gives right at 1775 fps from 29" bbls, about 1680 fps from the 24", and 1650 from the 20" tube.

A couple years later I bought another Brazilian M1908 whose metalwork was smooth and unpitted, but carried some stains and patina. It had a walnut stock of common grain, and it too was a shooting essobee. However I already had a couple superb 7x57's and needing some cash for a project, sold it to a friend. I have a standing offer with him to buy it back for double what he paid me for it then. You could extract a fired case from it and wouldn't be able to see any external difference in it and a new unfired case.

From what I understand, the Brazilian military still has a substantial quantity of these rifles on hand. They're used for ceremonial purposes these days. So far as I'm concerned, the pre WW1 German foreign contract Mausers (large OR small rings actions) were the finest example of their genre ever produced. The Steyr contracts were close to their equal.

................Buckshot

[dualsport]

My 1908 Brazilian will shoot way better than I can see or hold, which is about 2" at 100 on a good day. Got it about 25 yrs. ago and it is the Queen of my collection by far, original everything, even bayonet. The 287308 hasn't shot well in it though. My old mold doesn't drop them even near .287, maybe .285. I've tried beagling it, that helped. The workmanship on these guns is fantastic.

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Thanks for the responses ~ I look forward to receiving my M1908 tomorrow down at my local gun-runner.

Roger the information about oversize groove diameters. I believe the Europeans did that a lot for some reason.

Buckshot, your pictures show such amazing stuff! I would hope that the one coming my way is half that good.

I fully intend to keep this thread going as this "project" rifle comes along this winter.

Good morning,
Forrest

[NoDakJak]

Buckshot: That is arifle to be treasured and coddled! I have never tried any cast in a 7x57 and right now it is way down on my list. Too many projects and not enough time. I just traded my 7.35 Carcano and a bit of cash and ended up with a 1896 Krag sporter that has a barrel that appears to be near new inside. I also picked up a 311284 mold . I now have this rifle and a #3 Ruger 30-40 but am down to nine anciene mismatched cases. Where the hell are the new ones ? Ah well! It is down to zero tonight and I won't be casting for a while! Neil

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The rifle arrived last week and I brought it home. Initially things looked reasonable – the piece had been given certain cosmetics in order to look good in eBay pictures. The engraved Brazilian crest and “M1908” on the receiver had been filled in with white-out and wiped such as to make all the neat stuff easily visible. The wood is in reasonable shape with no serious divots or deep scratches – it too had been touched up to look good in photographs.

No numbers match; Receiver, bolt, cocking piece, floor-plate, all are different. This was a semi-disappointment since I had allowed myself to hope for a bit better consistency in a rifle that after all had never gone through a major war. (I guess even “minor” wars in South America could really louse things up though) I punched a solvent soaked patch through the bore – it came out reasonably clean but a look through the “cleaned” barrel reveled a very dark bore. Rifling still strong but all is dark and maybe even rough looking.

I took it apart – or at least I tried to: The front action screw holding the barreled action to the trigger guard was extremely tight. I got a perfectly fitting blade – and twisted the screw driver blade off in three pieces. I ground down another blade – too thick at first – to be a press-fit into the screw slot. Then with a 6-inch wrench I got the screw to give.

Once apart I inspected it. My! I cannot remember ever seeing such a mess within a rifle’s stock and action. There is some horrible kind of grotto that looks like dog sxxt embedded in the barrel groove, magazine cut-out and all over the metal parts that fit into them. It looks like maybe at one time someone put that junk in there as a poor to sickening attempt at “bedding” the rifle to the wood. Yuck; the stuff is everywhere!

Since then I took the metal parts all to pieces and cleaned off the junk with a bronze brush in gasoline. I found no significant rust anywhere but the cleaning job took awhile. That was all I had energy for the time being. Since then I have over-hauled the wooden portions of the rifle, cleaning off all the yucky stuff and looking for solid wood underneath. I got it all done today and once it was all together again it actually does look like a rifle.

The barrel/bore is my greatest concern. In looking at the item as carefully as I can it seems that the barrel was subject to cleaning from the muzzle for a long time. The crown is hammered out pretty badly and the rifling at the muzzle appears significantly worn.

As yet I do not have any cases for 7x57 and until I do I won't be able to do any real testing - it is a high of 15 degrees today anyway so it really isn't a loss as yet.

That is it for now. When cases arrive I'll slug the bore with a squib load and a 0.287 bullet ~ and look for indications of just how rough it is inside.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Buckshot]

..............That's a shame about the barrel, but maybe it's simply full of more petrified goo? :-) The last nice M1908 Brazilian I'd seen for sale was listed at $425 and while a mismatch (so is mine) it WAS a nice rifle and listed with Vg-exc barrel. If your rifle turns out to be not such a great shooter you might contact Dennis Kroh at Empire arms and let him know what you're interested in.

................Buckshot

[Nose Dive]

Fasmus... Well that is about the condition the ole Mausers are coming to us now. Packed up heavy duty in cosmoline. Ed's Red does the clean up pretty good on this. Read my post on Ed's Red and safety precatuions elswhere on this site. I completely take mine down, wiping all the while, the they get a bath in Ed's Red. They come out a day later and get another scrubbing with a tooth brush and the Red. This cleans all gunk and cosmo off gun and stock.

THE BARRELLLLL ummmm Let's see....

After the treatment above, I use COP OUT or more usually..plain old ammonia and scrub her out good with that. Then I ELECTRONICALLY CLEAN the barrel and to date, I have gotten the 8 mauser's I own to shine up nicely. I do the electronic treatment twice then rinse with water, HOPPES, then WD-40 and dry swatches... I use an old 6 VOLT plug in deer feeder battery charger for my power supply...safe...easy...simple.

Your 2 inches in 100 yards is darn good in my opinion,..assuming here she is still OPEN SIGHTS.

Hay...I got a scope,,scope mount from COMBATHUNTING.com yesterday for about $115.. All bolt on to the rear elevation sight which is removed. It is slick. Long eye relief so no bolt bending fees either. Really like it and this will make my Ole Mauser and some reload boolits ..."DEER CAMP READY"... I can't see very well so the scope is a must and reload get me out of the MILITARY SURPLUS'' plinkers paradise ammo...

Hope this helps a bit for clean up chores. Remeber to take down the bolt...always a bunch of cosmoline in there..

NOSE DIVE

CHEAP, FAST, GOOD. Kindly pick two.

[FAsmus]

Nose Dive;

I wish it was cosmoline that filled up the recesses and wooden parts of this rifle! Not so; this was dry, semi-hardened brown junk pervasively smeared or forced into all nooks and crannies of the barrel groove, magazine cut, trigger recess and subsequently everywhere it could possibly go into the rifle assemblies such as all the little pieces and parts of the bolt, bolt stop and the trigger. Horrible stuff - I've never seen anything like it and hope I never do again.

I have heard of the electro-cleaning of bores but have never seen it done and I certainly do not have any such equipment here at my place. ~ Any ideas?

I think I may have several old Leupold target scopes somewhere in a box but it has been so many years since I used a scope sighted rifle that I have pretty much forgotten what it was like to shoot optical sights.

This rifle will be tested with both jacketed and cast whenever the weather warms up anywhere above 40 degrees. We'll see what develops and post results here when I know something.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Buckshot;

Thanks, I will keep your reference on hand. If (as seems likely) this rifle turns out to be a bust I'll follow up on finding a better one.

My main interest here is to get an old military rifle in 7x57 on the firing line that shoots quite well. Then I plan on adding some good receiver sights and perhaps mill down the front sight band and install a Lyman 17A.

We'll see ~

Good evening,
Forrest

[Calamity Jake]

If you need 7X57 brass I have 5 boxes of new Win white box brass I am willing to part with.

[MtGun44]

Read the thread on Foul Out here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=100345

Bill

[Rodfac]

Buckshot...If you ever get the urge to unload that beautiful 7x57 pic'd above, PM me...I'd be real interested...Rodfac

[FAsmus]

Calamity Jake;

Thanks for the offer.

Right at this moment I need just one or twenty cases to #1 measure bore/groove diameters by the squib-load method #2 load 10 to 20 rounds and do the initial trial shooting at close range to see how the rifle actually shoots as-is.

In longer term use I guess it'd be a good idea to get your 100 cases just for the sake of having them since I do plan on having a 7x57 pretty soon kind of no-matter what.

PM me, say what you're asking.

Thanks for the post,
Forrest

[MtGun44]

Rodfac,

HEY, HEY, HEY!!! Back of the line buddy! And it starts around the block. :bigsmyl2:

If he passes on suddenly, I expect a fist fight to break out over that one.

I am joking, but I imagine that he has that one promised to someone. If not, I'm in line
after whoever. . . . .

Bill

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Progress on the M1908 is visible; I found a fellow here in town who donated 18 7x57 cases to the project ~ made from GI 30'06 brass, neck-turned to fit an old forgotten project and ready to go to me for free.

I reviewed my loading tools available for the job - somewhat belatedly - and found that no, I didn't have a FL 7x57 sizer in my possession like I thought I did. Instead I had a full set of Lyman 310 tools, (handles and everything), a RCBS neck sizer and a Bonanza "straight-line" seater.

I attempted to chamber an empty case into the M1908 and presto! It fit perfectly; no need to FL size them after all.

I worked with the Lyman 310 tooling and loaded two rounds with old left-over Lyman 287308 bullets cast in 1984 I had laying around, sized to 0.287 with gas checks in place.

My chosen method for slugging the bore of a newly purchased rifle is to load a squib of 700X under an well over-size bullet and shoot it into a coffee can jammed full of rags out in my casting shed.

I packed the can and fired the first "squib" into it - it was too much 700X - sending the bullet all the way through the rags and out the bottom of the coffee can into the positive stop medium where it was mashed up completely. This was the hotter of the two loads, fired to determine exactly if it were too hot or too cool for the job. Next came a further reduced load and the bullet stayed in the coffee can of rags, recovered in perfect shape.

I measured the bullet, finding the bore to be right at 0.2760 and the grooves 0.2868 ~ or only very slightly less than the oversize bullet was in the first place.

With this data in hand I went ahead and loaded all 18 cases with the Lyman bullet and 18 grains SR 4759 at an over-all-length that presses the bullets firmly into the origin of rifling at the closure of the bolt . The Bonanza seater is not suitable for the job since it is built to accommodate only regular jacketed 7mm bullets - it will not accept oversize 0.287 bullets at all. Fortunately the 310 seater is not so picky and worked just fine with the Lyman 310 adapter in my regular press.

Tomorrow is forecast to be warm enough to do the initial test firing of this rifle. I will post the results for your considerations when this test is complete.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[MtGun44]

GOOD LUCK!

Hope it shoots well, but IME you want .002 to .003 over groove diam as your cast diam,
so you may need an even larger boolit. The targets will tell the tale.

Bill

[FAsmus]

MtGun44;

Yes, I know an even bigger bullet than 0.287 would be nice ~ if you know where a fellow could find a mold being currently manufactured (or even a discontinued design) as a "7mm" and yet bigger than this I would be quite interested.

This would be tough to do. I know since even the 0.287 size seems to be hard to locate. That leaves the custom mold-cutters and their justifiably high prices. I'm not ready to go that route for an old animal like this M1908.

The initial shooting went well today. I regret having only 18 cartridges to check today but even so the results were better than I thought they might be;

Since this rifle has evidently been cleaned from the muzzle a good deal I wasn't expecting much good results downrange but the groups demonstrated more problems with the type inaccuracy associated with bedding problems than with generally poor performance because of poor rifling; I got three groups that had four semi-good shots (around 4 x 2.125) and a flyer way out there. To me this suggests a rifle that is "willing" to shoot if only the stock/barreled action would get along a little better.

These are early days yet. For example I know that an old item such as this one that was assembled from parts-bins ~ coming down to me and then being totally disassembled/reassembled may very well "settle in" after some 40 - 50 rounds and do quite a bit better than the first few rounds would give you to expect.

I'll have to go looking for some 7x57 brass I guess.

Good evening,
Forrest

[MtGun44]

Search on 'beagling a mold" or "beagling". It is a method to slightly shim a mold open with
aluminum metal tape squares to increase the diameter. Yes, the boolits are oval, but No, they
shoot just fine for many folks. If you find that the beagled boolits shoot well, but not the smaller
ones, you can lap out the mold a few thousandths. Search on 'lapping a mold'.

I have had really excellent results with a full load of IMR4831 under a 175 Hornady JRN. Look
for a load in the books that makes about 2400 fps. I have used this in all my old milsurps,
including the Rem RB with very good results. However, the RB's favorite is 36 gr of 4064 under
the same bullet, which will shoot into 1-1.5" at 100yds, despite the very well worn riflling.
Sorry, but I don't want to give out the load as it is max in some books and over max in a few
others. IMO, it is just fine, but you make your own choices. I will say it is in high "40s" in
grain weight.

Bill

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Times with the M1908 have not been encouraging.

It has been pretty cold for shooting much at all but I've taken the rifle up and managed some testing anyway.

The trouble seems to lie not only with the old as-issued stock but I'm beginning to strongly suspect the cleaning-from-the mussel wear combined with general barrel roughness may be good and sufficient cause to re-barrel the rifle and retire the military stock.

The project is in the planning stages at the moment and mainly being fueled by being cooped up from the cold ~ We'll see how things go.

Good evening,
Forrest

[MtGun44]

If you can see rifling damage in only the first 1-2" from the muzzle, counterboring is
really worth trying if the next step is to scrap the barrel.

Bill

[dualsport]

Maybe you could just have it rebored, keep the issue configuration that way. Seems like it could be rebored to 8x57.

[Doctor Sam]

I can't follow all that. If you still have the 7X57 Win brass let me know what you want for it.
New or reloaded? Made when? Lot #s all the same?
Many thanks.
Doctor Sam

[FAsmus]

Bill;

Roger the idea for counterboring the barrel. I have also considered cutting it off back to the front sight and re-crowning.

Also there is an outfit called "Springfield Sporters" that offers military contour replacement barrels. I'm talking to these guys about the details of their products.

Good morning,
Forrest

[madsenshooter]

If you could find a supplier like that who would slug the barrel for you, you'd be in business. They might have already used what you need as re-rod in the floors.

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen;

Progress on the M1908 has been made.

As last reported the issue barrel wasn't doing well. Ultimately I decided to go ahead and rebarrel it with an Adams & Bennett 7mm barrel from Midway. ~ This has been done with a friend's help, providing me with a nice 7 x 57 basic outfit.

In addition to the rebarreling job I installed a very vintage (1920s?) Lyman tall-staff #48 receiver sight and a current production Lyman 17A. ~ The stock came from the nearly-kindling pile of discarded Mauser stocks in my friend's collection. I chose it because it has already been through the hack-saw sporterizing treatment and the barrel groove had been hogged out to roughly the same contour as my A&B F-54. Also, it had started out its service as one of those laminated pieces they were using when full-size wood became scarce during the war. Sure it is plenty ugly, complete with someone's lousy looking rubber recoil pad but it'll be strong and stable.

I got things together enough to slug the barrel first to find out the exact bore/groove sizes I had wound up with so I loaded a case with 1.7 grains 700X and an as-cast Ideal 287308 at 0.287. Then I went out to the shed and fired it into a pile of rags. This exact level of 700X turned out perfectly; the nose of the bullet was just protruding from the muzzle allowing me to pull it the rest of the way out in virtually perfect condition. I wasn’t satisfied though so I loaded a SAECO 071 over 2.2 grains 700X and did it again. This time the bullet exited the barrel and through several layers of rags – still remaining in good shape and a better measuring item too since the nose of 071 is 0.277 as compared to 0.2755 of the Ideal bullet. The sizes I came up with are 0.283 for the grooves, 0.277 for the bore. This amounts to fairly shallow rifling – only 0.003 on a side but of course quite serviceable.

Then, as it was an obvious next step I prepared the wood and epoxy bedded the rifle together. This worked out quite well and very soon I had things in shootable condition.

As good fortune would have it the next day off for me was warm enough to do initial testing. I loaded 30 of my Ideal 287308s over 19.4 grains SR4759 and headed for the range.

Now, I had fired the two rounds slugging the barrel already and at the range I spent one more shot as a bore-sighter. I adjusted for center and then fired the very first group the barrel ever fired, this being shots 4 - 8 ever run through the bore and got a group of 5 x 1.630. The next group was 5 x 1.000 and the next 5 x 0.880. Then, not being able to stand it, I opened the last one to 5 x 1.600.

Since then the weather has been quite cold and further testing has not been indicated - but spring is right around the corner. I look forward to further testing and then, once I'm satisfied I'll move on out to the extended distance silhouettes we have here and try it out at long range ~ on out to 834 yards, which is what I bought the tall-staff Lyman for at the first.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Bret4207]

It sounds like you have a shooter there Forrest. The 7x57 is a fine cartridge, in fact if a man could only have one rifle (perish the thought!) a nice 7x57 would fill the bill very well.

[FAsmus]

13 March 2011

Here, today in Sheridan I took the M1908 out to the hill-top range for the first time. Ed came up too to help me sight in and get the elevation numbers for the distances. This worked out very well; he and I working as a team. The M1908 did very well indeed, shooting a 440 yard group of about 5 inches on the “bear” and getting first-shot hits at several distances.

12 April 2011

More shooting with the M1908;

I wrote about the initial testing of the M1908 above, which was a start, but handicapped by distracting conversations behind the firing line .. Anyway, this time I was solo, with plenty of time and enough ammunition to get everything done properly.

The ground here is still pretty wet from all the rain and snow we’ve had lately which is a problem since the prairie sucks up misses without a single indication of where the shot actually landed when I look out there just eye-balls from the firing line. It was obvious ~ I had to avoid missing.

I did have some good numbers from that previous shooting with Ed and with them as a starting point I got on the 395 yard diamond OK with my chosen load of SAECO 071 and 28 grains Varget. Moving to the 440 yard bear was easy since he is pretty big. This was good because I could work on my group shooting in the big black iron of his body. The little 7mm pills made sharp pointed splashes on the steel, much different from the big single shots, and even different from some of my old 30 caliber hits.

On out to the tiny square at 470 yards I was a little worried since this one is hard to see through the sights at best and misses are even worse – but I got on with the first shot and stayed on for more yet. And so it went; even as the ranges continued to get longer the M1908 kept right on performing. The 587 yard big diamond in particular is fun since it rings like a huge gong even with having been hit with a tiny 165 grain bullet. The 606 bull is dull since hitting it is only discernable by seeing new 7mm dings in the black.

The antique tall-staff Lyman 48 receiver sight that cost nearly as much as the original rifle did is kind of a disappointment to me. It is a good sight, moving solidly to needed settings and repeating dead-nuts but the tall staff has turned out to be a cripple; The staff is marked to 125 minutes elevation but the threads for the elevation screw only crank the sight up to 70 minutes; then the threads reach the end of their travel! When I first discovered this I was unpleasantly shocked since the reason I wanted the tall staff was always intended for shooting long range and here I was, limited to about the same elevations a ‘normal’ receiver sight is capable of.

I thought over this problem at home and decided that I’d simply have to go back to the extension method to gain the precision of screw-adjustable elevation instead of trying to move the sight manually when I wanted to change the setting. Thus, I had my box of sight parts on the line with me.

When came the time to move on out to the 834 yard big square I chose the extension, put it on the staff and thought; how can I figure out how high to set this thing for a hit?

Well, I knew a previous elevation number for the distance, so, I cut a piece off my data card with my pocket knife, estimated the setting, marked it on the piece of paper with my ball-point pen, measured the mark on the paper on the elevation graduations of the sight staff, subtracted that number from the first number and moved the sight to the designated setting.

The 834 yard distance enables a shooter to move from the rifle to the spotting scope before the bullet arrives on target and watch it hit. My first shot was an invisible miss. I adjusted up five minutes (41¾ inches at the distance) and fired again – nothing visible. I came up another five minutes, fired and there just off to the right and a foot high from the target was my miss. I was elated. In just three shots and I had it made – the next shot with suitable adjustment was a hit and the faint sound of the 7mm pill hitting the target and coming back to the firing line five seconds later was sweet music to my ears!

And so it went. This shooting with the M1908 was all good.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[MtGun44]

Sounds like you are having a great time with that Mauser! Great news.

Bill

[Clark]

I bought a number of 1908 Mausers when the salesman at Century called me with a deal ~ 3 years ago.

I built a couple of 7mmRemMag rifles with two of them in Oct 2010.

I was just fooling around with a take of M70 barrel and a Rem700 take off barrel.

The Rem700 barrel is an ugly duckling tack driver.

[FAsmus]

Clark;

The photographs are impressive ~ in the event you ever have "too many Mausers" let me know ...


Good afternoon,
Forrest

[David2011]

Forrest,

I've enjoyed reading about your Mauser exploits. I friend and I ordered four 1908 Brazilians last year. Built in Oberndorf for Brazil, shipped to Brazil, shipped no telling how many more times (they had Star of David cartouches on the stocks) three of the four we received had consecutive serial numbers. They were all pretty rough. I would expect 4-5" groups if I shot one with the original barrel. They are definitely in the project gun class; not really nice collectibles like Buckshot's. One wil become a .22-250 but the metal is so pitted that I'll probably put DuraFill and DuraCoat on it fpr coyote hunting. As a .22-250 I'll expect it to shoot very well after I install a decent trigger and Douglas or Shilen barrel on it. I'll put it in a laminated stock or possibly a good composite stock and a good scope.

David

[Clark]

Clark;

The photographs are impressive ~ in the event you ever have "too many Mausers" let me know ...


Good afternoon,
Forrest


If I saw someone else with that many Mausers, I would suggest they needed physiological help. But not me, I can handle it:)

[Buckshot]

Forrest,

I've enjoyed reading about your Mauser exploits. I friend and I ordered four 1908 Brazilians last year. Built in Oberndorf for Brazil, shipped to Brazil, shipped no telling how many more times (they had Star of David cartouches on the stocks) three of the four we received had consecutive serial numbers.

David

.........Ludwig Loewe created DWM. He was Jewish, hense the star.

...............Buckshot

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Well, I can't really claim that this is a "real" Brazilian anymore since the barrel is a replacement item and all but that is the way the thread began and it remains kind of interesting, perhaps along the lines of speaking to the 7x57 if nothing else.

I hadn't loaded for the 7x57 for about 25 years when I got this rifle but, as it happened I still had the shooting logs from back in those days. In fact I still had about 200 Lyman/Ideal 287308s still in the bullet box, lubed with my favorite at the time, M&N lube. I wish they had remained in business ..

Anyway, I'd done some shooting during those 25 years and knew a good deal more about what makes a cast bullet perform than back in those early days ~ unfortunately I'd sold the good 287308 mold but I had a friend offer the loan of SAECO 071 and I made up a couple hundred.

The way the load(s) came together has been inspiring and gives me hope for the future along the lines of getting a relatively inexpensive 4895 load to shoot well when my current stock of Varget runs out. I have heard that Varget is just glorified 4895 anyway ~ have any of you done a comparison?

So far the loads of success have been the 4759 mentioned below and the Varget load I told about recently and then the high-test item of 37.5 grains IMR 4350. All shoot very well, I simply chose the Varget because it in kind of a middle-of-the-road combination, neither too fast or too slow.

In any case I stand to receive a good deal of 4895 from an estate sale and I'll be testing it when it arrives, all the same 7x57 rifle that started life as a Brazilian.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen:

The 1908 Brazilian with cast bullet loads has been in the works these last several months and here is a short story about how things have turned out.

The rifle - as said - turned out well and did some good shooting with the SAECO 071. ~ But I wanted a heavier bullet. I bought an RCBS 7mm-168-SP. I got it and it had a nose section that was too big to fit the origin of rifling in my new barrel. The difference was 0.0015 but it would not fit. Instead the bullets would simply get shoved down into the cases when chambered. Yuck.

RCBS told me that the size was within their production tolerances and they would not replace it since the replacement would undoubtedly have the same problem!

I was unhappy, but what could I do?

~ I made a sizing die to fit my SAECO sizer of 0.2770 and went to sizing noses! This works and although it does add to the procedures of bullet making I did wind up with something I could shoot.

In working loads the testing indicated that the long RCBS needed to be pushed fairly hard or it would show signs of instability. I finished up with my short range testing and wished very much to run the rifle/load over our long range silhouette range but there were problems.

These problems and their solution are told of in the short piece that I and my son had together right after Thanksgiving; (all shooting is done off the cross-stick rest)


26 November 2011

Well, it took awhile to load for both the M1908 7x57 and the M1891 7.65x53 yesterday. In fact we didn't get it done at all before it was time to go take part in some other family activities. – I completed the job when I got up this morning.

When the temperature passed 30 degrees my son and I loaded up the car and went to the range. It was calm here in town but when we arrived on the hill-top it was blowing out of the NW @ 15G20 and the temperature was still around 32. The wind was strong enough that shooting right out in the open was not indicated. Instead we set up in the lee of our shooting shed. I was kind of non-pulsed by the strength of the wind since it was plenty strong enough to blow things like the little 7mm pills all over the place but – we were there to shoot, so we carried on.

The shelter of the shed works well but it is not on the regular firing line and so shooting from there adds about 15 yards to the distance to each target. This consideration bent some of my expectations for establishing elevation numbers for the 7x57's new load of 4895 and the new RCBS bullet but I figured that all I would have to do would be subtract the same additional elevation from all my findings and have good references for when I next step over to the regular place for some shooting.

Things went surprisingly well. You see, my trouble with the 7x57 had been that although I pretty much knew I had a good combination it had been impossible for these last several weeks to shoot over the long range targets as final proof of its performance since all he rest of the fellows have given up and begun shooting indoors for the Winter Season of 22RF competition. ~ With no spotters around I have been helpless to figure out where to set sights in the event of a miss since the ground is either wet or actually frozen – thus showing nothing for bullet impact when a miss is made. Son Thomas' helpful presence was badly needed to spot – and he is good at it!

We began at the 350 yard offhand Bucket. It is big, easy and close – a good starting point work out incrementally, each increasing distance being on average about 3 to 4 minutes greater elevation with each stage. By the time I worked out to the 440 yard Bear and its much smaller Little Round at the same distance I knew things were going to go well as the 7mm bullets would easily print into the white of the Bear and hits were coming predictably on the next door Ltt'l Rnd – which is set at the same distance. Tom's shooting with the M1891 went well too, me spotting for him turn-by-turn. The load in the 7.65x53 is 38 grains IMR 4350 under the new production Lyman HT 206 grain 314299. It sounds almost like a full-power jacketed rifle and shoots into an inch easily at 100 yards. Before the shooting was over (60 rounds) for him he was complaining about recoil.

At the 500m Buffalo I first got on him with the unaltered receiver sight but I knew that the staff would soon reach its limit of elevation so, I changed over to an extension, adding 0.300 to its height. Then I thoughtfully re-zeroed the sight back onto the Buffalo with the extension in place, giving myself two elevation settings for the same distance, which is useful to have.

The 7mm did well on the 587 yard Big Diamond even as the two of us noted that the wind was falling off considerably. It was possible to take windage out instead of adding it in all the time! Tom began showing some trouble here, saying his feet were cold, so I gave him my jacket and he wrapped his feet up. His misses came along now and then, some well off the steel – attributable to inconsistent follow-through. I knew it because when he concentrated, hits always predominated – misses coming only when the wind changed.

At the 606 yrd Bull the wind had moderated right on down to calm: Wonderful stuff! It was possible to close in on the white and even hit it once with the little 7mm. Then at the 648 yard Chicken the wind came up again, having walked all the way around the compass, coming in at 3 o'clock instead of 9 o'clock. It wasn't as strong as before but, as it came in from the opposite direction the range shed no longer provided any protection. It was disconcerting, and cooler.

Then, just to give you a better idea of how seldom the other fellows come out in the cool of our weather these days Tom and I moved to the Big Round at 670 yards. It still showed the outstanding 30'06 hits I fired on it three weeks previously! The little 7mm didn't mess things up much either – I missed the steel once high since I had no elevation for the distance with this load and then rolled them into the same group as the M70 left for me to shoot into. ~ Sure, I did open it up a few inches, but hits still surround the white in a very satisfying way! I gotta get a camera out there soon to prove this shooting to one and all.

At the 834 yard distance, (now about 850 yards from the shed firing point) I found that I didn't have any record of 7x57 elevation at either distance. I was puzzled to figure out an approximate elevation for the distance. Then I realized that Tom's M1891's elevation chart had that distance on it such that I could guesstimate where to set my sight by subtracting his Big Rnd number from the Big Sq number and set my sight. It worked – I got a hit with the first shot.

More hits came along with ease until I had just three left of my box of 75. Then I turned the rifle over to Tom because I'd told him I wanted him to get a few shots out of a rifle he hadn't yet fired. He sat down and ran the last three rounds for three hits just like he had good sense. It was a fitting close to a very fine Father & Son day.

So, my hope for a day when I could prove the new load of powder comprised of a new bullet over the distance was accomplished. And the temperature when we got home had risen to a balmy 37 degrees.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The 7x57 has been in use this summer with fair success.

The rifle/load seems to prefer cooler conditions than we have had this year. This became clear one day in the warmth of summer as the rifle tossed lots of flyers high/low with good sight picture.

I switched over to 28 grains Accurate 2495BR and my problems disappeared.

I had never heard of this powder - let alone for use under cast bullets, but I came into 8 pounds of the stuff for free and was looking for something to burn it in. Success was found the very first time I tried it.

Give the 7mm a try folks; it shoots quite well so long as your load is supersonic. After that it does drift around a good deal.

Good day,
Forrest

[Lefty SRH]

What boolit did you settle with? I have a 1908 Brazilian also.

[FAsmus]

Lefty;

Details about the bullets are in the thread.

Thanks for posting, good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I thought I'd post an update on the Brazilian today and add a picture of it on the firing line here on our hill-top range.

69465

The load is still the 28 grains of Accurate 2495BR under the nose-sized RCBS 7mm-168 bullet. The rifle now has over 1000 rounds through it and by the end of this summer I hope that the origin of rifling will have worn enough to accept the oversize nose of the as-cast RCBS bullet without the additional step of nose-sizing.

I did some shooting in the wind the other day alongside a very well qualified fellow with a accurate and proven 45/90. ~ He was semi-shocked at the way the small-bore 7mm kept on rolling in the hits right on out to 830 yards.

On that day I was mainly interested in seeing if the old Lyman 48 described earlier in this thread was usable by looking through the factory installed (the sight is marked "1911") fold-down aperture set inside the threaded hole where you normally place a sight disk.

I have been using the regular disks for all this time but, due to a design flaw by Lyman, when a disk was in place I could no longer see the windage graduations. This wasn't working out very well since a fellow really needs to be able to see where mechanical zero is on his sight as conditions change.

It turned out that even though the little insert makes the sight picture less than ideal (going nearly to a 'ghost ring' in appearance) it was much easier to judge where zero was and thus make adjustments in windage more knowledgeably.

Long live the 7x57

Good morning,
Forrest

[Lefty SRH]

I have the same RCBS 7mm-168-SP mold and the bands are a bit small and the nose is a bit large. I plan to try them in my Ruger No.1 RSI 7x57 with some IMR 3031. The rifle shoots jackets really well but getting it to shoot a cast has been challenging. If I can get this 168 SP to shoot in my Ruger I'll send it out and have the bands opened and try it in my 1908 Brazilian.
Do you mind posting a close up pic of your rifle? I'd like to see the sights.

[Lefty SRH]

Have you run this load over a chronograph? How fast is it? Any special alloy blend? How long is that barrel?

[FAsmus]

Lefty;

Here are a few shots of the sights;

69547

This one shows the staff and graduations. The knob moves at half-minute clicks and backwards as compared to modern sights.

69549

This is from the front showing the way the little insert is attached to the sight.

69548

This shot shows the sight from the rear. You may see the little fold-down disk which I have moved enough to make it visible. The windage knob is, as you see, quite narrow hard to adjust and turns the opposite way you would expect from modern sights.


The load is estimated at 1900 ft/sec. I have not run it over the clock as yet but the real-world chronograph set at 800 yards shows me that the SD has to be around 15 or so. ~ I get very little vertical dispersion.

The bullets are fired as-cast @ 0.287 quenched from the mold, WW + 10% Lino. The barrel is an A&B, contoured from the barrel-maker, standard crown at 25 1/2 inches.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Lefty SRH]

Thats great Forrest, thank you for the info. I'd like to find a "better"/easier to adjust rear sight for my Ruger No1 7x57. Right now its wearing a NECG peep.

[Lefty SRH]

When your smith cut the chamber on that A&B barrel did he use just a standard (long throat) reamer or the short throat version?

[FAsmus]

Lefty;

You know, I'm tight friends with the fellow who owns the machine tools in the garage shop and I'm an X-machinest myself. ~ But we didn't discuss the length of the throat when the barrel was chambered/throated. If it provides any clue the overall length of the loaded round with the 7mm RCBS is 3.090.

You are pretty much assured that another 1911 tall-staff Lyman 48 with "target" knobs would be hard to find on purpose, let alone by accident! This one just happened to be there on the gun-show table top one day ~ It looked like it would be at home on a rifle of similar vintage.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

In recent shooting with the M1908 I was interested to try powder that really isn't in the usual running for cast bullet shooting.

This shooting was done because of the current powder shortage - my stocks of Accurate 2495BR is limited and sure-enough there isn't any on anyone's shelves or the sites on-line where supplies are sold.

Then, there suddenly appeared lots of IMR 7828 for sale at the shooting shop. I bought a couple pounds and went home to see if I could figure out a load for the 7x57 with this slow stuff.

I looked over some data from IMR and guessed/estimated a load of 39.3 grains 7828 under my usual HT RCBS 7mm-168-SP. I did the initial shooting at 100 yards and was pleased to see the shots grouping up nicely. Nothing off-the-clock you understand but groups consistently around 5x1.500 or 5x1.625. The load shot hard and clean with "BAC" lube, no trace of leading, a good star at the muzzle.

I loaded 70 more and headed for the Hill-Top range for long range shooting.

Up on the hill I started at 350 yards to establish a zero and then moved on out, 7 shots at each distance until I got to the 834 yard Square. The load and rifle performed wonderfully well: "In-the-white" (centers) accuracy was possible at all distances.

I estimate the velocity around 2100 ft/sec or so, certainly faster than the load made up with 2495BR. This was evident because at the 834 yard target my sight was showing 13 minutes lower than with the 2495 combination for hits. I even figure that the RCBS was still supersonic out there since drift was quite manageable.

When shooting was complete I inspected the bore, finding it clean and shinning from throat to muzzle.

Now, 7828 is expensive these days and at nearly 40 grains per round its a bit higher priced than some loads I've fired - but then again until 4895, Varget or 2495 become available again it'll do.

Good evening,
Forrest

PS: Here is shot of the 587 yard "Big Diamond" with my friend Ginger for scale.

77439

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

As this rifle is a good performer I shoot it regularly.

By now nearly 2000 rounds have been fired and a question has arisen regarding the action: Does it stretch?

I have heard that these old Mauser actions, being what is commonly called "soft" will stretch slightly during firing. In the old P.O. Ackley book where he intentionally blew up various military actions I remember the old M98s would typically stretch enough before actually blowing up that they would become inoperative.

Here is the deal ~ Although I have never fired anything but the relatively low pressure cast bullet combinations in this rifle I have to trim cases every 12 cycles. This compares to things like the M1917 Enfield in 30'06 when fed strictly cast bullet loads has not needed its cases trimmed in over 40 cycles each. Other rifles based on the M1903, M70, M1891 Mauser show a similar record for NOT needing such regular trims to remain in-tolerance.

I wonder about the cases, (good, new commercial WW production) thinking about them possibly being of a "soft" production Lot or otherwise compromised. This may be so because since I started out with a full 100 cases I'm now down to 77 from cracks in the necks - and I annealed them all about halfway through the number of cycles I've fired - no help; I still loose about 1 - 2% whenever I take the rifle to the range.

What do you think?

Good morning,
Forrest

[7s&8s]

Forrest,
Do you use a case guage to adjust dies? I have been using those made by Wilson or Forster case gauge for the last few years. I find this allows you to work to tighter tolerances so less working of brass. Don't remember the last time I trimmed brass... The has also eliminated issue of chambering in one but not the other 7mm...
Might be worth a try.
Best Regards,
Tom

[Hardcast416taylor]

My `08 Brazilian 7mm had been Bubba`ed so much and so badly that I kept the action and discarded everything else! I was really only wanting the action so it worked out for the better. I rebarreled it with a 7mm Mauser cal. barrel from E R Shaw and had it outside fluted. A new stock from Boyd`s and a Timney trigger w/side safety were also added. Drilled and tapped for scope and blued the metal plus altered the bolt handle besides discarding the Mauser safety. Shoots RCBS 145 gr. sil. very nicely.Robert

[Ed in North Texas]

Gentlemen;

As this rifle is a good performer I shoot it regularly.

By now nearly 2000 rounds have been fired and a question has arisen regarding the action: Does it stretch?

I have heard that these old Mauser actions, being what is commonly called "soft" will stretch slightly during firing. In the old P.O. Ackley book where he intentionally blew up various military actions I remember the old M98s would typically stretch enough before actually blowing up that they would become inoperative.

Here is the deal ~ Although I have never fired anything but the relatively low pressure cast bullet combinations in this rifle I have to trim cases every 12 cycles. This compares to things like the M1917 Enfield in 30'06 when fed strictly cast bullet loads has not needed its cases trimmed in over 40 cycles each. Other rifles based on the M1903, M70, M1891 Mauser show a similar record for NOT needing such regular trims to remain in-tolerance.

I wonder about the cases, (good, new commercial WW production) thinking about them possibly being of a "soft" production Lot or otherwise compromised. This may be so because since I started out with a full 100 cases I'm now down to 77 from cracks in the necks - and I annealed them all about halfway through the number of cycles I've fired - no help; I still loose about 1 - 2% whenever I take the rifle to the range.

What do you think?

Good morning,
Forrest

I generally don't use Winchester cases (except for 35 Remington new cases these days), but I seem to recollect they had something of a reputation of being "soft". I can't swear to that, my memory isn't what it was when I was 60. [smilie=1:

[FAsmus]

Tom;

I've never heard of adjusting dies by means of a "case gauge" - whatever that is.

For the record, I neck-size only and the neck sizer stops sizing a good 0.050 ahead of the beginning of the neck taper. ~ No way does it even approach touching the shoulder of the cases.

However, not mentioned previously, is the way that primers have backed out in the past with cast bullet loads. I overcame this problem by lightly lubing each case before firing.

Any help?

Good evening,
Forrst

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Over the summer I have enjoyed shooting the M1908 over our long range facility whenever I could. This has amounted to a counted 1000 rounds.

The rifle has proven very accurate and consistent over this period. At the beginning of the season I bought 100 new 7x57 cases to supplement the failing WW cases that were showing neck cracks as steadily as I was loading and firing them. I am now down to just 22 of the original 100 I began with.

The new cases are made in Serbia and so far none have shown any cracks at all.

Further, they seem to be stronger than the WW cases - needing more force on the press to run them through the loading procedures. But, strangely enough they are actually lighter than the WW brass by about 3 grains each.

On the firing line both bands of brass shoot to the same zero - and it is important since at 835 yards any differences in component performance can screw up a fellow's time on the firing line.

Good evening,
Forrest