Question on brass .22 jackets

[Reg]

Have wanted to ask this for some time.
On some forums ( not here ) and in a number of books, the opinion is expressed that using new brass cased .22 RF for jackets in .22 CF bullets is not a good idea.
According to some the brass will gall and smear at normal velocities not only effecting accuracy but the overall condition of the bore as well. As the story goes, back in the old days when Fred Huntington and others were swaging at the end of WW-2 one could still get .22 RF with copper hulls and these were what one wanted to use, not brass.
I guess my question is, what is the true story. Many here seem to be using regular .22 RF hulls for jackets. What kind of accuracy are you getting? How is your bore life? Any fouling problems ?
Have wanted to try making some but this question has held me back.
Whats the story ?
Thanks for any info.

Reg

:neutral:

[ANeat]

I havent shot a bunch but I get accuracy comprable to any of the bulk FMJ bullets.(sub 1" thru a Savage bolt 223) Havent really noticed any fouling problems but I have heard some of the same stories.

Making jackets from 22rf cases while being "free" is a good bit of work. You can buy berger jackets and make bulets as good as any

[canyon-ghost]

Had a friend make me some 22 hornet bullets from 22 lr cases. I had to save them from my Contender, and being single shot it's easy to not throw them down. They all had the headstamp on the base of the bullet, nice little buggers too. They were better than cheap Rem PSP bullets, better than a lot of store-bought brands. I'd like to have the original Rock Chucker setup for swaging those 22s.
Ron

[Bullshop]

The Speer bullet company of CCI, Speer, RCBS started out with the two Speer brothers selling 22 cal bullets swagged from 22 RF brass. It would seem that they did well.

[elk hunter]

I made and shot 10,000 50 to 52 grain bullets jacketed with rimfire brass through my Remington 700 222 re-chambered to 223 plus 2,000 or so commercial bullets before the barrel gave up. I didn't ever see any sign of excessive fouling. Your results may vary, but I doubt it.

[Bullshop]

One thing for sure they expand way more violently than bullets made with commercial jackets.

[freddyp]

I have found fouling to be about the same. Accuracy is dependant on how concentric the RF jacket is. Most RF brass is 2 to 3 thousands, out of round. Berger and Sierra jackets are about 4 ten thousands out of round, a big difference. If you want 1/2 moa accuracy, the Sierra or Berger jackets is the way to go. The RF jackets are good for about 1 moa with the occasional flyer.

[Hickory]

When I first got into swaging .224 cal bullets out of 22 rimfire cases I anneled the whole case and had terrible results with fouling.
I soon found out if I only anneled the mouth of the case I had a lot less fouling.
I was told by Dave Corbin that you don't want to get the shank part of the "Bullet" too soft by burning out the zinc. The zinc helps to lubercate the bullet as it travels down the bore.

[dale2242]

I made a great score, buying 15,000+ 52gr bullets made from 22RF cases, at an estate sale. I have shot from 300-500 of them through my Ruger 223 on sage rat hunts WITHOUT cleaning and no lost of accuracy. My load is 26gr of IMR 4895. I cleaned as normal, after that many rounds and found no excess fouling. I had the same concerns but found them to be no different than gilding metal jackets , in regards to fouling.
If anything, they may even foul less. I can`t say for sure, as I have never fired that many factory bullets with out cleaning....dale

[martin]

I have made and shot 22 RF case jacketed bullets a couple of times and it is my belief that they are no better nor no worse in terms of fouling. In my experience with a borescope, fouling will be left behind in the bore. I did find that copper sullivents will more agressively attack the brass fouling possibly because of the zinc content.

My results were less than desired in terms of accuracy with the brass jackets. Groups tended open up with brass jackets to measure between 3/4 and 1 inch at a hundred compared to copper jacketed in the 1/4 to 3/8 inch range. My suspician was that there were too many inconsistantcies in the multitude of variables of the brass cases. For example, total run out of the brass case, indent of the firing pin on the base, harder material forming inconsistant ogives, ring where the rimfire base is swaged out.

The bottom line is the use of 22 rimfire cases for center fire jackets is an individual thing. They may work well for small critters and plinking but not so well for accuracy work.

My two cents.

Martin

[Reg]

Thank you, good answers all. I respect a field report far more than a "experts " written article.
It would appear that if no annealing is done or at least only on the open end, then fouling would be no problem.
In my case, 3/4 to 1 inch groups would be very acceptable, I can't shoot much better than that !!
Will have to spend a few evenings going back through the posts in this forum and start getting some education as I think I am going to give this a try.
Now, does anyone have the instructions for Fred Huntington's swaging dies. I have the pictures posted here of what they should be but don't fully understand the process from A to Z. I have access to full machine shop equipment so making up a set should only require time but it would help if I had a better understanding of how Fred wanted them run.
Again, thanks up front.
Reg

:drinks:

[Hickory]

I have made and shot 22 RF case jacketed bullets a couple of times and it is my belief that they are no better nor no worse in terms of fouling. In my experience with a borescope, fouling will be left behind in the bore. I did find that copper sullivents will more agressively attack the brass fouling possibly because of the zinc content.

My results were less than desired in terms of accuracy with the brass jackets. Groups tended open up with brass jackets to measure between 3/4 and 1 inch at a hundred compared to copper jacketed in the 1/4 to 3/8 inch range. My suspician was that there were too many inconsistantcies in the multitude of variables of the brass cases. For example, total run out of the brass case, indent of the firing pin on the base, harder material forming inconsistant ogives, ring where the rimfire base is swaged out.

The bottom line is the use of 22 rimfire cases for center fire jackets is an individual thing. They may work well for small critters and plinking but not so well for accuracy work.

My two cents.

Martin

Martin;
I agree with everything you have said.
RF Jackets are inconsistanat in several ways, length, thickness and weight.
They are not the most accurate that can be made.

If you count your time, they are no cheaper then factory made bullets.
But, they are a sense of pride and acomplishment when you whack a varmint out there at 250 + yards. And the are divestating when they connect.

I strive to make them better everytime I make them and have gotten some good batches of bullets. But like I've said before, they are not in the same leauge as factory bullets.

[Radio Flyer]

Thank you, good answers all. I respect a field report far more than a "experts " written article.
It would appear that if no annealing is done or at least only on the open end, then fouling would be no problem.
In my case, 3/4 to 1 inch groups would be very acceptable, I can't shoot much better than that !!
Will have to spend a few evenings going back through the posts in this forum and start getting some education as I think I am going to give this a try.
Now, does anyone have the instructions for Fred Huntington's swaging dies. I have the pictures posted here of what they should be but don't fully understand the process from A to Z. I have access to full machine shop equipment so making up a set should only require time but it would help if I had a better understanding of how Fred wanted them run.
Again, thanks up front.
Reg

:drinks:

Don’t get too down on someone writing “gun law” often the story is deeper than you would expect. The writers have to eat, often they are writing about subjects under demand and may not have a depth of knowledge needed - the demands of the publishers force them. (Inside information - publishers don’t care, not one bit, as long as it sells or fills the space correctly.)

Jackets are made of copper alloy and the exact mix is usually unimportant and the quality of results will change in very very small amounts or not at all. Gilding metal is a copper alloy, comprising 95% copper and 5% zinc. Technically, it is a brass.

Brass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass)

Copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper)

Cupronickel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupronickel)

I happen to know where this BS story came from and why...

Of course the history is both not exactly as presented and more interesting.

The story revolves around the use of corrosive priming chemicals, the old brass cases that had used the old priming chemicals had negative effects on the metal of the case and did not preform well.

Today none of the priming is corrosive and does not get into the metal of the case - problem solved.

The 22 lr cases make a thin jacket, one of the reasons the 22 jacket works so well in the varmint mist conversion that varmint hunters love so much, the thin jacket does present some problems and it cannot be shot from a rifle at too high of a velocity as it will be stripped apart as it exits from the riffling.

There is no significant difference in the metal of a 22 jacket and a standard jacket outside of thickness and reliable speed due to that thickness.

[dale2242]

I was told by the seller not to shoot the bullets, made from 22 rf cases, over 3400 fps.
The reason being, they would come apart in the air due to the thin jackets.
Anyone had that happen to them,and at what velocity?
I think I will push them up in my 22-250 to see what happens.
I like to call them my "Junkyard Bullets". I certainly wouldn`t call them match grade bullets. They have very acceptable accuracy to hit sage rats, the size of a 12oz beer can, at ranges up to 200 yds.....dale

[Three44s]

I have no experience with type of bullet you are shooting but do have with the Hornady SX 55gr.

...... it is said they are not to be ran over 34 or 3500 ....... I did ...... (.22-250)

What happened is that as I worked up that load ..... some of the slugs went a little sideways at 100 yds.

Then you just back off!

Three 44s

[martin]

Dale2242,

It is probably good advice not to push the 22 rimfire jacketed bullets too fast. The general rule that I have seen is to keep them less than 3000 FPS but I am sure that others have pushed them faster with varying results.

A couple of things to keep in mind: First, the jacket material is fairly thin and has little or no taper from the tip to the base. Most copper jackets have a slight taper which adds to the strength of the jacket when being kicked out of a barrel at high velocity. Second, copper jackets are more homogeneous in that they do not have nicks, voids or scratches. Third, it is my belief that copper has properties which allow it to stretch a bit more than brass before reaching a failure point.

If you were to do the calculations for a 1 in 12 barrel (typically what is used in a 22-250) you would find that the RPM is 180,000 at 3000 FPS and 240,000 RPM at 4000 FPS. This rotational RPM is huge and it takes a fair amount of strength to hold things together when it gets that high. Stress points in the 22 rimfire jackets, I would think, would become an issue.

There is another component to this and that is the resistance of the air. As the velocity goes up, so does the resistance. As the resistance goes up so does the temperature. Bullets that have poor ballistic coefficients will have higher resistance thus higher temperatures in flight. To an extreme, bullets being pushed past 4000 FPS can actually melt the lead core resulting in a visible vapor trail being seen down range as the lead vaporizes at high velocities.

So, in my way of thinking, there is probably two points of failure. One when the bullet exits the barrel at it’s highest velocity and highest stress (after being kicked in the butt) and the second when it is traveling downrange as it heats up due to air resistance. In either case, it is possible that the bullet never makes it to the target if the velocity is too high.

I think the suggestion to work up your loads is a good one as testing will likely provide enlightenment.

Martin

[Radio Flyer]

Gilding metal is the softest type of brass commonly available. An alloy of 95% copper and 5% zinc, gilding metal is typically used for ammunition components.

The copper color is not pure copper but 95-5 a type of “brass”.

The “brass” of cartridges is actually “cartridge brass” it is a 30% zinc mix known for good cold working properties (why reloading is so easy).

Most .22 lr cases would be made of “cartridge brass” as noted the thinness of the jacket is the biggest issue not the material.

Several companies use exotic brass mixes and I have often seen “cartridge brass” used as jacket material from time to time including Montana Gold, Golden West, and Remington Golden Saber.

There are also successful jackets made of mild steel and the wear and tear on machine guns was tested in WWII as less than 5%.

[MIBULLETS]

I believe it is the smoothness of the barrel that causes most in-flight blow-ups. I had a gun that would shoot them fine until the barrel became dirty enough they would start coming apart. Clean the gun and all was fine again. In very good match barrel, I have shot these bullets up to 3600 fps in a 22-250 with no problems. Twist rate will also affect this too.

Good advice from Martin on working up your load. Shoot enough to get the barrel dirty then work up until you get failure or a max load.

[michiganvet]

Corbin says up to 3200 fps with 22 rf jackets.