AR-15 22 conversion kit Problems

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

My military conversion kit just stopped working! I was shooting it & it just stoped functioning. I cleaned everything well,the firing pin is not broken.

The only thing i see is maybe the hammer spring is weak.With a steel cleaning rod in the barrel the rod just moves a little bit when the hammer hits the firing pin. This is the same way with the center fire bolt in place.
Whats the problem? Help!

This is the kit with the 10 round mags that fit inside the orignal 223 mags.

Thanks for any help,

broom lost as usual

[Larry Gibson]

Hi All,

My military conversion kit just stopped working! I was shooting it & it just stoped functioning. I cleaned everything well,the firing pin is not broken.

The only thing i see is maybe the hammer spring is weak.With a steel cleaning rod in the barrel the rod just moves a little bit when the hammer hits the firing pin. This is the same way with the center fire bolt in place.
Whats the problem? Help!

This is the kit with the 10 round mags that fit inside the orignal 223 mags.

Thanks for any help,

broom lost as usual

We used the devices for years in the USAR/NG and I found with extensive use in the same rifle crud/residue can build up in the chamber around the chamber insert. This can cause the assembly to set back slightly which means the hammer is not sticking the firing pin flush. A very good cleaning of the camber with a new chamber brush solved the problem. We used the chamber brush on the end of a rod section instead of the handle and chucked a variable speed drill onto the rod section. A little turning at low speed will liberal use of cleaning solvent cleaned the carbon and lead residue out of the chambers. A brash bristled small brush is used to clean the chamber insert off. Barring any other unkown problems that should solve the problem.

Also check to see if the firing pin comes almost flush with the face of the bolt. You say the firing pin is not broken? Have you disaasembled the bolt? TM 9-6920-363-12&P lists a carbon fouled firing pin as a main cause of "fail to fire". I have found the fouled chamber to more likely the cause but have run across a couple fouled firing pins. The TM is good to have but are hard to come by these days. I enjoy the M261 (Caliber .22 Rimfire Adapter) I have as it ads a useful versitility to ARs.

Larry Gibson

[carpetman]

In my early years in the Air Force,we had to qualify with the rifle annually. Will admit during my recruiting days it was "written off" but not actually done. Only certain jobs (flying status and cops---not sure what else)had to qualify with pistols---I never shot one round in an Air Force pistol-----did reload a lot of Air Force pistol brass---was a time I could scrounge it. Could get all the .38 special I wanted. Later,the annual requirement to qualify with a rifle got dropped,except in certain jobs. Close to my retirement time I was on a special detail that required I qualify and we shot with the .22 rimfire adapter. It is my understanding that an Air Force person developed the adapter?????????????? Certainly it saved a ton of bucks with decreased training costs.

[Ken O]

I have been looking for a used M261 kit, they seemed to be everywhere until I decided to get one. I want to build a dedicated upper, Compass Lake machines a Douglas or Krieger barrel for the .22RF to replace the .223 barrel, just for the conversion kit. On some of the competition forums, shooters are reporting very accurate results, just what you need for practice.
So if anyone knows of one available, let me know.

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

I took the kit apart for the second time this morning after reading the posts on dirty chambers on the 223 barrel. & fouled firing pins.
They looked good, but I cleaned everything well, got some dirt out of it.

I reassembled everything and tried it with three empty 22 Federal cases. It went bang every time !
Off to the range I go! Fd four rounds theywork well, the next 16 rounds would not fire! I get a light half moon mark from the firing pin on the cases.
The same ammo fires in a ruger 10-22 with no problems1
I stumped!
Can you fellows suggest any other thing for me to check?

The firing pin moves freely!

Thanks,
broom

[Bob S]

I have a Compass Lake .22 RF upper and I can recommend it highly. They are expensive, when I bought mine a few years ago it was $800, and the price went up shortly after that. If you shoot a lot, and shoot seriously, it is worth it. It shoots well enough that I wouldn't feel terribly under-gunned bringing it to a smallbore position match. I can practice the entire NM course at the local 25 yard indoor range with reduced targets downloaded from the Long Range forum.

I think I have seen a grand total of one on the "used" market, and that was more than a year ago. The best place to look would be the classified board on the National Match forum ... but don't hold your breath, most owners use them regularly and want to hold on to them. The best thing is just call Compass Lake and order a new one. The Douglas barrel version is what I have and it meets my needs, but if you have really deep pockets, you can also get a Kreiger barrel if you like.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[broomhandle]

Hi Bob S.

Thanks for the reply. I might think about a CZ upper, but $800+ is over my head.

I'm 65 & the eyes & body are not up to super accurate shooting anymore.

Best wishs to you,
broom

[Larry Gibson]

Hi All,

I took the kit apart for the second time this morning after reading the posts on dirty chambers on the 223 barrel. & fouled firing pins.
They looked good, but I cleaned everything well, got some dirt out of it.

I reassembled everything and tried it with three empty 22 Federal cases. It went bang every time !
Off to the range I go! Fd four rounds theywork well, the next 16 rounds would not fire! I get a light half moon mark from the firing pin on the cases.
The same ammo fires in a ruger 10-22 with no problems1
I stumped!
Can you fellows suggest any other thing for me to check?

The firing pin moves freely!

Thanks,
broom

It's always hard to diagnose these situations via email/forum posts. Does the hammer maked flush contact with back of the bolt and full contact with the firing pin? When the firing pin is pushed in does the tip come flush with the bolt face? Is the bolt full closing when the misfires occur? If the bolt is not going fully into battery the hammer blow is being cushioned. Before firing test to see if it is going into battery by pushing the bolt forward with your thumb. There is a groove in the side of the bolt accessable through the ejection port to push on with your thumb. It's sort of like an alternat forward assit. If the bolt moves forward at all, even the tiniest bit, then something is preventing the bolt from going into battery. Causes could be; a weak return spring, crud built up on the bolt face where the rim fits, damaged or burred extractor or cartridge retainer.

Regarding the cartridge retainer (the round wire pawl that retains the right side of the case during extraction); the TM states, "Positioning the cartridge retainer on the bolt face is vital forsafe conversion kit performance. A damaged or improperly positioned cartridge retainer will cause a cartridge to fire out of battery...or result in a hight malfunction rate." Soooo, are you sure the cartridge retainer is positioned back correctly?

Let's also go back to your original post where you suspect a weak hammer spring. Are both legs of the spring up on the pin. Does the rifle have any misfire problems with .223?

Larry Gibson

[Ken O]

There have been many used M261s on the AR15.com equipment exchange, not many lately, I tried to buy one that was on there a couple weeks ago, but someone else was faster. I did get an email saying he hasnt got the funds yet, so I am next in line.
There is also the Atchisson kit that Accurcy Speaks uses in thiers. If I cant get an M261 then that is what I will do. I have a A4 upper in the safe that I'm not using, I would get the barrel from CL and a float tube and build it myself.
I feel that the kit without a real .22RF barrel is defeating the purpose of accurate feedback for practice.

[dk17hmr]

Sometimes with mine the bolt wont close all the way, I can drop the mag and it will feed. Sometimes it requires a nudge with my thumb to close completely.

I have found that it does this because the slip in mags are about junk, need to adjust the mag all the time.

I use mine for everything in both my AR's, its accurate enough for small game.

[broomhandle]

Hi All,


A. C. did a M-1 Garand for me, it took longer than they said it would.
It shoots very well. All in all it WAS worth the wait & cash spent.:-D

I tried all the things recommened here & on other boards, with no help!(#%*#%):confused:

I will see the gunsmith at 4 pm.


Thanks for all your help,
broom

[Larry Gibson]

Hi All,
I tried all the things recommened here & on other boards, with no help!(#%*#%):confused:

I will see the gunsmith at 4 pm.

Thanks for all your help,
broom

Broom

Please make sure you get back to us on what you find the problem is/was. As I said before I've extensive use with the M261s in M16A1s and older ARs with the 1-12" twist. Accuracy has been very good out to 50 yards, certainly good enough for small game and economical practice. As with most any .22 accuracy was dependant on what ammo the rifle liked. I've only limited experience with the M261 in the faster twist ARs and the M16A2. Mostly it was on a 50' range but accruacy seemed equivelent to the M16A1. I've got 7 of the magazine inserts and they all work very well and are quite reliable. I've also used many others over the years in numerous M16A1s. I've found they work most reliably when used in 20 round magazines.

Larry Gibson

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

Well it was the Hammer spring!:-D

It took about 1 min. for him to repair it! OOH JOY!

As I said, I have been shooting this gun for 15 years now & never changed a spring!:roll:
It fired well with the regular bolt & 223 ammo.
The gunsmith said the 22kit needs more power to fire the 22 rimfire than the 223 with the standard bolt.
I took it out back & fired 10 rounds in a flash!
I'm going to pick up all new springs & install them soon.

Unfortunally,we have to be ready for anything these days.

Thanks for all your help . The unit & the whole gun is much cleaner than it has been in a while!
Wonder of Wonders the cleaning directions listed steps I forgot about!

Be well & safe,:drinks:
broom

[Larry Gibson]

Hi All,

Well it was the Hammer spring!:-D

Be well & safe,:drinks:
broom

Outstanding! Be aware that sometimes after shooting 400+ rounds of .22LR or so (depends a lot on the type of .22 ammo) the gas port/tube can plug up and failure to function with regular .223 may result. This usually cures itself with firing several rounds of .223 (the TM says to shoot 5.56 to correct this problem also so I'm not recommending anything untried and unsafe). The most I've seen this take is about 15 rounds in an M16A1 that had several thousand rounds of the "white box" Winchester match .22 ammo through it. T-22 ammo was a great offender in this regard and is not recommended for use with the M261. CCI MiniMag HPs and Remington Yellow Jacket HPs were death and destruction on picket pins (ground squirrels) during several weekend excursions to Gowen Field outside Boise. I also managed a couple of parrots and other exotic critters in central America and Korean pheasant is mighty tasty in lieu of MREs in those cold Korean mountains. Oh well, the memories.......

Larry Gibson

[Ken O]

Glad to hear you got it fixed. I have heard the opposite problems with the M261, where the hammer spring was too strong and the blowback wouldnt set the hammer back.
Larry, MREs in Korea? Maybe you are talking later, I was thinking more of the old C-Rats

[Larry Gibson]

Glad to hear you got it fixed. I have heard the opposite problems with the M261, where the hammer spring was too strong and the blowback wouldnt set the hammer back.
Larry, MREs in Korea? Maybe you are talking later, I was thinking more of the old C-Rats


Yes, I had both in Korea (been there several times). Forgot the older clientel on this forum as most ex military personnel today can't relate to C or K rats. In the old days of SF teams roaming the Korian hills we had a Korean SF (usually a CPT) rep with us. They very seldom carried rations or anything else (their RTO carried most of it) and would just barge into a local hooch and have the Koreans fix us chow. It was free gratus on the part of the locals to feed us. However, I always had my team intel guy leave the area last to "sterilyze" it. He would give something (we always carried extra "trade" items plus cash) to the locals when the Korean SF CPT was out of sight.

I got "compromised" one time by a little old Korean gal up around a happy mound right after I'd shot 3 pheasants. I made hand gestures indicating one of the pheasants for her and two for me. She gave a gruntled response and grabbed all three and headed back down the mountain before I could do much of anything. I was thinking; oh great, this is going to be some kind of international incident. About three hours later she came back up the mountain accompanied by three younger woman with large platters of rice, kimchi and all sorts of other goodies along with two of the pheasants beautifully prepared. It was a fantastic meal on a cold October afternoon a long time ago in a land far away. Oh the memories.......

Larry Gibson

[edlmann]

I have been looking for a used M261 kit, they seemed to be everywhere until I decided to get one. I want to build a dedicated upper, Compass Lake machines a Douglas or Krieger barrel for the .22RF to replace the .223 barrel, just for the conversion kit. On some of the competition forums, shooters are reporting very accurate results, just what you need for practice.
So if anyone knows of one available, let me know.

Oly lists one: http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view=dtl&ids=RFA

[edlmann]

TM 9-6920-363-12&P . . . The TM is good to have but are hard to come by these days. I enjoy the M261 (Caliber .22 Rimfire Adapter) I have as it ads a useful versitility to ARs.

http://www.txmarks.org/cdfiles/Individual%20Weapons/TM%20M-16%2022LR%20Adapter.pdf

[Ken O]

Oly lists one: http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view=dtl&ids=RFA

I found a new M261 at Sarco, it wasnt on thier website, I called and they happened to have just one kit left. They said they wont be getting any more.

[Larry Gibson]

I found a new M261 at Sarco, it wasnt on thier website, I called and they happened to have just one kit left. They said they wont be getting any more.

If you don't mind, what was the price for theirs?

Larry Gibson

[edlmann]

I have been looking for a used M261 kit, they seemed to be everywhere until I decided to get one. I want to build a dedicated upper, Compass Lake machines a Douglas or Krieger barrel for the .22RF to replace the .223 barrel, just for the conversion kit. On some of the competition forums, shooters are reporting very accurate results, just what you need for practice.
So if anyone knows of one available, let me know.

http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view=dtl&ids=RFA

[Ken O]

If you don't mind, what was the price for theirs?

Larry Gibson

Somehow I missed this post, sorry Larry. I paid $175 for it.

[xfire]

hi broom i also have a M261 conversion too with problems i tried everything too it seems like my firing pin is worn & the guide rail hole is elongated thats where spring pin holds 22 adapter together with guide rail i tried finding parts all over can't seem to find right parts i also have nsn numbers for parts too if anyone has info as to where i can buy part please E Mail to me at
xfireagain@aol.com

[garandsrus]

I have a Ceiner conversion kit and with the ammo it likes, Wolf Match, i get sub inch groups at 50 yds with a RRA 7 twist barrel. I was amazed with the groups using Wolf since the other ammo I tried was in the 2-3" range at 50 yds.

[Larry Gibson]

Here's my M261, still working extremely well.

Larry Gibson

93326

[MtGun44]

Larry,

Does the EOTech cowitness with the irons on that mount? Or are you using the holosight
for the .22 LR and the irons for 5.56?

Looks neat. I have the Ceiner kit, works well in my guns, the main problem is the large
POA/POI differential.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

MtGun44

Does the EOTech cowitness with the irons on that mount? Or are you using the holosight
for the .22 LR and the irons for 5.56?

That pic was taken with my Colt lower but the upper with 12" twist barrel now has it's own lower, an LMT (both this rifle and my Colt in pic). I have the irons zeroed for my 52 gr Speer HP load (26.5 gr of H335 or 26 gr AA2230 in LC cases with CCI SR magnums or WSR primers) at 250 yards which give a "don't hold off fur" hold to 300 yards on coyote's. I then set the dot on top of the front sight with proper sight alignment of the irons. That gives a 200 yard zero with the dot. So yes they are cowitnessed. With that zero most .22LR HS HPs hit about 1" right at 50 yards. So when shooting .22LRs I just adjust the EoTech's windage 1 mark "left" and use the dot. It works very well. It's always very easy to double check the dots zero by just getting a proper sight alignment with the iron; the dot should always then just sit on top of the front sight. If not it is easily adjusted so it does.

With the EoTech if I have not made a windage or elevation adjustment it always is "there". Also if the EoTech is left on the base and the base removed and put back on it goes back to zero. Does that with this rifle as it did with my M16A2 over the year long deployment in Iraq and the additional year and a half stateside where it was put on and then taken off every time I drew the rifle out of the arms room. On the 300m qual course 40 hits out of 40 shots was child's play.

Larry Gibson

93448

[xfire]

hi Larry,
my name is george i was in chat with OB he told me to ask you where did you get your M261 from i have same one like yours the prob. i have with mine is where spring pin goes through guide rail that holds barrel on is longated i can't find maker or parts for it any info you can give me would help alot thanks

[Larry Gibson]

hi Larry,
my name is george i was in chat with OB he told me to ask you where did you get your M261 from i have same one like yours the prob. i have with mine is where spring pin goes through guide rail that holds barrel on is longated i can't find maker or parts for it any info you can give me would help alot thanks

Can you post or email me a picture?

Larry Gibson

[xfire]

will do larry as soon as i get camera to work right i need your E mail address mine is xfireagain@aol.com

[MtGun44]

Larry,

Thanks for the info. Cowitnessing is really wonderful, easy cross check of the red dot without firing any ammo.

Wife's flattop has a EOTech and fold down rear. Check the rear against the EOTech and verify both are still on
is quite convenient.

Which exact mount is that one you are using? I have an M16 upper that could use an upgrade.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Bill

The mount is a BC-CAM AR15/M16 from C.R.T.C. INC. Got it from Brownell's back in '04 (gee was it 10 years ago I was gearing up for Iraq?). I filed a small bit off the top of the top hand guard so the base goes low enough for co-axle alignment with the dot in center of adjustment range. Doesn't hurt anything. Once I got it where I wanted it I scribed a witness mark on the two parts on left side so if it ever came loose (never has) I could easily reset it. If you open the picture you can easily see the white line towards the top where the front and rear parts or the base mate.

Larry Gibson

[lrdg]

We used the devices for years in the USAR/NG and I found with extensive use in the same rifle crud/residue can build up in the chamber around the chamber insert. This can cause the assembly to set back slightly which means the hammer is not sticking the firing pin flush. A very good cleaning of the camber with a new chamber brush solved the problem. We used the chamber brush on the end of a rod section instead of the handle and chucked a variable speed drill onto the rod section. A little turning at low speed will liberal use of cleaning solvent cleaned the carbon and lead residue out of the chambers. A brash bristled small brush is used to clean the chamber insert off. Barring any other unkown problems that should solve the problem.

Also check to see if the firing pin comes almost flush with the face of the bolt. You say the firing pin is not broken? Have you disaasembled the bolt? TM 9-6920-363-12&P lists a carbon fouled firing pin as a main cause of "fail to fire". I have found the fouled chamber to more likely the cause but have run across a couple fouled firing pins. The TM is good to have but are hard to come by these days. I enjoy the M261 (Caliber .22 Rimfire Adapter) I have as it ads a useful versitility to ARs.

Larry Gibson


Here is a good copy: http://themanualguys.com/8%20~%20Arms/601.505%20~%20TM9%206920%20363%2012&P%20~%2022LR%20Conversion%20M261%20for%20M16%20~%2 01978/TM9%206920%20363%2012&P%20~%2022LR%20Conversion%20M261%20for%20M16%20~%2 01978.htm

[MtGun44]

Thanks, Larry, I'll look into that mount.

Bill