What I learned Friday at the range.....

[oldracer]

Well I did a batch more testing of several of the things that can and do affect the accuracy of the 45-70 loads I have been working on. These items have been gleaned from talking to other shooters, here and also from the Black Powder Cartridge News magazine. Here is what I tested yesterday, load was 68gr ffg Goex and 500gr bullet:

100yds test:
Not sizing fire formed cases vs full length sizing and then flaring the mouth. I shot 10 rounds at 100yds and got approximately a 1 1/2 inch group. Blew 3 breaths after each shot and cleaned the bore afterwards. Fired 10 shots with formed cases and they were all over the place, some even missing the 8 inch target completely! 3 breaths between each shot as before.

Cleaned the bore well

200yds test: (this was the 1st time I tried anything at 200 yds)
Not sizing fire formed cases vs full length sizing and then flaring the mouth. I shot 10 rounds at 200yds and got approximately a 4 1/2 inch group. Blew 3 breaths after each shot and cleaned the bore afterwards. Fired 10 shots with formed cases and they were all over the place, MOST missed the 12 inch target completely as it seemed the spreading was worse! 3 breaths between each shot as before.

Seems my gun does NOT like sized and belled cases for any type of accuracy so I will continue compressing the powder and then hand seating the bullet!

Cleaned the bore well

100yds test with other variables:
I tried several "wrinkled" 500gr bullets to see what happened and they scattered as I expected they would. These were in non sized but formed cases. These do not seem to cause much issue with pistol rounds at 15yds but here better bullets DO shoot better for sure.

I tried NOT blowing the 3 breaths between shots and it only THREE rounds to make the barrel foul up badly. I had to really brush and clean it and the powder residue was a mess! I was surprised to find it happened so quickly. So drinking lots of water and bowing into the bore is a good thing!

This BPCR shooting is sure interesting and the learning factor should keep me happy for a long time.

[montana_charlie]

100yds test with other variables:
I tried several "wrinkled" 500gr bullets to see what happened and they scattered as I expected they would. These were in non sized but formed cases. These do not seem to cause much issue with pistol rounds at 15yds but here better bullets DO shoot better for sure.
It's amazing how many 'experienced casters' would disagree with your results.


I tried NOT blowing the 3 breaths between shots and it only THREE rounds to make the barrel foul up badly. I had to really brush and clean it and the powder residue was a mess! I was surprised to find it happened so quickly. So drinking lots of water and bowing into the bore is a good thing!
That is something which can vary. I can't tell you what the key is, or which way to turn it in the lock, but I have seen things go the other way.

Long story short, I have some 45/90 ammunition that was loaded by another guy.
I don't have exact particulars on the load, but it is basically 87 grains of Goex 2f Express and a Postell bullet lubed with SPG, seated deep enough to cover all grooves.

I have shot as many as twenty-five of those rounds with no fouling control...just because I was sharing my rifle with some neighbors who are not into BPCR. They weren't interested in blow tubing, so we tried shooting without any.

I can't tell you why the ammunition performed so nicely...maybe it was the Express powder. But it kept shooting well enough to keep hitting the gong at three hundred.

CM

[Bullshop]

Perhaps humidity was the unseen difference.

[Gunlaker]

I've been shooting BPCR for a little while now but not nearly so long as others here.

But if I were to start again, I think I'd first start working on loads until I found one that shot say 2" at 100yds.

Then I'd spend a bunch of range sessions learning about the effects of fouling control and plain old learning how these rifles like to be held in order to shoot well.

I've noticed big differences in group size based on fouling control and how the rifle is held. Until I realised that I was probably chasing my tail on load development.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Oldracer.

There are a few things that come into play with full length sized brass over none sized brass.
When you full length size you are changing the inside volume of the case therefore your compression the powder more which changes the burn, and that will lead to more variables like fouling, pressure and a few other things, especially if you use brass of different lots and makes like Remington and Winchester mix or just different lots.
Variances in case mouth wall thickness puts more pressure on the bullet more so with a full length sized case plus work hardened case mouth will hold the bullet more or less were you will get by with a case not sized. And a few more things that need attention
Uniformity is the key with the black powder loads. Brass, powder, bullets.

And as far as shooting without fouling control (load and shoot) The bullet design, lube and how you put it in the case controls how many rounds you can fire with out blowing or wiping.
If you get these things worked out you will find that your groups will not open up any larger after 3-4 shots fired until you let your barrel over heat to the point the lube gives out.
I have shot over 50 rounds at a 4' gong at 600 yards with out using the tube and missed very few sitting on the ground resting the elbow on my knee.

[oldracer]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts. The humidity was low so that might have made a difference? At any rate I will keep the tube handy for now. I did notice a very slight difference in the height of uncompressed powder in both the size and unsized cases (sized was higher as expected) but both were compressed to the same level so that means the sized cases were packed tighter. From talking to a few people here and also the article in the BP magazine from last year the "amount" of compression had little effect but I am guessing there are many that will disagree? I did notice that the force to seat the bullet did make them swell just slightly as I am using lead with a bn of 10 for right now.

There was one shooter yesterday who noted his Rolling Block shot best out to 300yds with only 62gr of ffg but he was using a 400gr bullet and he couldn't remember what his chrono readings were so I am guessing they might have been a bit lower. He did say he did NOT size or crimp his cases though??!!

[northmn]

I had a 45-70 that I used fire formed cases in with good results, but necksized them. The chamber was such that they looked almost bottlenecked when loaded. It did give an increase in powder capactiy.

DP

[cajun shooter]

If using Starline cases that you have not annealed the case necks will make a huge difference. Try using only annealed brass. That load of 68 gr 2F Goex has served me well although mine are using the Cartridge powder and not regular Goex. This load has been used with the RCBS 500 gr mold and the Saeco 745 mold which is a 535 gr bullet. I also as I said anneal my cases, weigh my bullets, use .030 wad over powder before compression. Try blow tubing and running one patch only down the bore before you resume shooting.

[RMulhern]

"What's gravy to one man.....may be horsechit to another!"

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Having owned numerous 45´s over the years I have to say they are all unique unto themselves when the search for the perfect load takes over. They are beasts unto themselves with requirements unique to that particular barrel/receiver.

[Don McDowell]

Couple of observations here.
If you weren't compressing the powder before seating the bullet , then you may very well of been damaging the bullet noses to the point they won't shoot to well.
To get away with that you need to be shooting fairly hard bullets to keep the nose from deforming, or drop the powder charge enough that the bullet and wad are just in firm contact with the powder. (65 grs is about right with most 500 gr bullets to keep from having to compress before seating)
The other thing is crimp.. don't do it if you don't have to.

[SharpsShooter]

I did notice that the force to seat the bullet did make them swell just slightly as I am using lead with a bn of 10 for right now.


If it takes enough force to cause the case to swell when seating the bullet in a full length sized case, you are reducing the diameter of the boolit. Given the variables of brass thickness, it follows your boolit diameters will be all over the map. That won't help your accuracy at any distance. I do full length size my hunting loads, but I use a expander that allows me to seat with finger pressure and then follow up with a taper crimp to just straighten the case. Soft alloys are fragile and it doesn't take much to screw things up.

Good shooting on the unsized load.

SS

[RMulhern]

If after FL resizing your brass if you will use an EXPANDER PLUG that expands the portion where the bearing surface of the bullet sits your loaded round should chamber. I use an expander plug with diameter of .456" so with a bullet at a diameter of .458"...this gives a tension of .002" on the seated bullet! I DO NOT UTILIZE any crimp; no need to! If accuracy was any better....it would give me an orgasm!! I also use a Meacham In-line seating tool to seat all my bullets! With that being said....I very seldom shoot 'greasers' any more as I converted over to PP ammo quite sometime back! These I also FL resize and patch the bullet up to .450" or .451" depending upon the particular bore diameter of whatever rifle I am using!

[montana_charlie]

I did notice that the force to seat the bullet did make them swell just slightly as I am using lead with a bn of 10 for right now.

If it takes enough force to cause the case to swell when seating the bullet in a full length sized case, you are reducing the diameter of the boolit.
I think he meant that his bullet swelled up ...when he used it to compress the charge.

oldracer,
You need a compression plug for your expander die.

CM

[oldracer]

Thanks for the additional replies. I did compress the powder before I seated the bullet. I found that out a few weeks earlier and modified a expansion die so the face that contacts the powder is flat with just a very small radius at the edge so it goes into the case smoothly. The bullets deformed slightly due to the compression of them into the case as they went in about 50% and then hit the reduced diameter section. I seated the bullet to the depth so it should have been just touching the wads as I had measured things. As I noted earlier, I plan to not do any full length resizing from now on and will see how that goes for now.

[Lead pot]

You can still deform the bullet nose even if you use a compression die if you have to much neck tension using a soft lead bullet. Or with a harder bullet like 1/20 having your seating stem set to deep so the bullet seats on the wad before the ram tops out. The force increases by many fold when the ram tops out and you will not feel it on the Handel.
when you set your seating die turn the seating plug down on a bullet you are able to finger seat at the length you need on a compressed load and back the stem off 1/2 of a turn so you dont deform the bullet and it will not seat the bullet off the wad more than .003.

Kurt

[oldracer]

Good points about the die adjustments. I had the powder compressing die and the bullet seating die set from the loads I did on the cases that had not been resized as I did not believe that there would need to be any changes. These are RCBS dies with the lock ring and I have the rings tightened pretty well so they do not creep. I did measure the seated depth of the milk carton wad and newspaper wad from the case edge to make sure that the dimensions were the same as before and they were. There was no bullet swelling in the hand seated loads so I think it was from the friction of the bullet to case when going that last 50% of bullet length?

[SharpsShooter]

I think he meant that his bullet swelled up ...when he used it to compress the charge.


CM

I see your angle. I took it to mean that the sized case neck was of such a small diameter as opposed to the bullet that there was a noticeable bulge in the neck. Sorta like this but on a correct scalehttp://i16.tinypic.com/4tf5t84.jpg
SS

[ironhead7544]

I heard of one guy who uses just one case at the range. Thumb seats the bullets.

[montana_charlie]

I heard of one guy who uses just one case at the range. Thumb seats the bullets.
I don't use 'one case' because of the necessity of thorough cleaning between loads. But I haven't used a bullet seating die in years.
I am not unique. Many thumb seat their bullets.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Actually you don't need to clean between shots if, loading and shooting continously. It's when you're going to wait a few days between shots that cleaning becomes necessary.
The oldtime Schuetzen shooters only used 1 case to shoot an entire match, that's the reasoning behind allowing 4 minutes between shots in some of those old matches..

[oldracer]

I just loaded a batch of cases with the cases having been fire formed and did NOT size or expand the opening so the bullets (0.458 dia) flat nose 500gr slid in with just a tad bit of resistance. I also loaded some that were 0.457 dia pointed nose 500gr so I want to see how they also work. They went in with just a very small amount less pressure and some actually popped up due to trapped air underneath and I fixed that by rotating the bullet back and forth so they stayed seated. I will probably try these this weekend or next Tuesday.