Finicky Revolvers?

[Potsy]

Some time back I bought a 624 Smith .44 Special, a Lyman 429421, and a .430 sizer. Alloy was 50/50 wheelweight/shot with about 1-2% tin thrown in.

I measured boolits (.428-430 with my dial calipers) and throats (.433 with my dial calipers, which isn't the right way to do it, I know).

I dumped 7.0 grn H-Universal and a CCI 300 in Starline Brass, the gun hit everything it was pointed at. I had loaded a hundred of them and hitting cans at 50 yards was no problem, a stop sign sized gong at a little over a hundred yards was childs play, and with my last 6, I took the time to shoot a group, it clustered 5in one ragged hole and I pulled the 6th about an inch out at 25 yards.

A buddy of mine had some 180grainers loaded over 4.0 grains of Clays and a box of 165 grain Cor-Bon Hollow points. Those loads were clustering very close together.

Then, the other day, I had about 30 429421's left, so I got a wild hair and decided to try the famed "Skeeter Load". I dumped 7.5 grn of Unique and went to the range.

2 groups over sandbags at 25 yards and neither would group in a 4 inch circle.
I could do nearly as well offhand as I could off the bags.
I'd have thought I was having a bad day, but I tried a new load in my .45 Colt and put 6 in one ragged hole.

I didn't chronograph any of them, so I can't speak for any inconsistencies in velocity. There was no real vertical or horizontal tendency, just big nasty patterns.

I know my boolit-throat dimensions are pretty terrible, but why would it shoot one load so well, and do so terribly with another load that was so close to it?
I expect variations, and have witnessed such things with rifles (changing to another powder very close in burn rate, varying the charge slightly, and having things go to pieces or start driving tacks) but I would not have thought a big bore revolver would have such issues.

I know theres no real answer here except that theres something going on that my 624 doesn't like. Just wondering if anyone had any input an similar experiences?

[HeavyMetal]

Each gun is a law unto itself!

In your case I would find something else to shoot that Unique in and go back to the Universal as I have always been a big beliver in the old saying: "if it ain't broke don't fix it"!

[Bass Ackward]

I know theres no real answer here except that theres something going on that my 624 doesn't like. Just wondering if anyone had any input an similar experiences?


There can be many reasons and it can take a long time to diagnose even if I had the gun.

If this were a game show, I would guess alignment is what is working for slow loads and then not working for faster ones.

Think of cylinder alignment as an action that takes a certain amount of time to occur. The more a chamber is out of alignment, the longer the time needed. As long as your loads run within "this gun's" window, you won't damage the slug.

You could need harder slugs, or a stronger design or both to resist deformation when the speed that the bullet must leave the cylinder exceeds the guns ability to allow it to happen. Another way to essentially strengthen a slug is to deepen or lighten the angle of the forcing cone. This allows more time for the alignment to develop / adjust / correct without slug damage.

[bhn22]

This is a textbook case of why there is no single "best" load for anything. How often do we see someone ask for everyones "best load" for whatever model of gun? The result is always the same, 2+ pages of different answers, none of which are likely to be the best loading for that particular gun. Literally every gun is different, and for the best results, there are no shortcuts. Only experimentation will tell.

[Walt]

Some time back I bought a 624 Smith .44 Special, a Lyman 429421, and a .430 sizer. Alloy was 50/50 wheelweight/shot with about 1-2% tin thrown in.

I measured boolits (.428-430 with my dial calipers) and throats (.433 with my dial calipers, which isn't the right way to do it, I know).

I dumped 7.0 grn H-Universal and a CCI 300 in Starline Brass, the gun hit everything it was pointed at. I had loaded a hundred of them and hitting cans at 50 yards was no problem, a stop sign sized gong at a little over a hundred yards was childs play, and with my last 6, I took the time to shoot a group, it clustered 5in one ragged hole and I pulled the 6th about an inch out at 25 yards.

A buddy of mine had some 180grainers loaded over 4.0 grains of Clays and a box of 165 grain Cor-Bon Hollow points. Those loads were clustering very close together.

Then, the other day, I had about 30 429421's left, so I got a wild hair and decided to try the famed "Skeeter Load". I dumped 7.5 grn of Unique and went to the range.

2 groups over sandbags at 25 yards and neither would group in a 4 inch circle.
I could do nearly as well offhand as I could off the bags.
I'd have thought I was having a bad day, but I tried a new load in my .45 Colt and put 6 in one ragged hole.

I didn't chronograph any of them, so I can't speak for any inconsistencies in velocity. There was no real vertical or horizontal tendency, just big nasty patterns.

I know my boolit-throat dimensions are pretty terrible, but why would it shoot one load so well, and do so terribly with another load that was so close to it?
I expect variations, and have witnessed such things with rifles (changing to another powder very close in burn rate, varying the charge slightly, and having things go to pieces or start driving tacks) but I would not have thought a big bore revolver would have such issues.

I know theres no real answer here except that theres something going on that my 624 doesn't like. Just wondering if anyone had any input an similar experiences?

I have a 6 1/2" 624. The gun is a tack driver with +P loads using .430", 15 to 18 BHN lead bullets of several styles. Load the same bullets to standard 44 Special pressures or less and it shoots patterns instead of groups. In this case I assume the bullets are slugging up, with the higher pressure loads, to fit the large throats. It won't shoot swaged bullets no matter what you do to it.

[462]

Potsy,
My 6 1/2" 624 has .432" throats, and it gave me fits till I beagled the 429421 to drop wheel weights at .433". For a less-than-Elmer load, it loves 14-grains of 2400.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have opporated under the assumption it works best to fill the throats for the better accuracy. So far I have not come across a revolver that did not shoot better with a fat boolit.
Shooting a boolit that is .002 undersize does not sound like a good recipe.

[2 dogs]

First look for the simplest things. Have you checked to be sure your barrel isnt full of lead?

Your recipe is one that will leave you with a leaded barrel that will degrade your accuracy!

[44man]

Bass might have his finger on the problem---powder choice.
Half WW's and shot sounds a lot harder then I use and is expensive. Depends on the shot used though and if soft stuff was used it might have softened the boolits instead of making them harder.
I would just water drop WW metal and let them age to expand, go to a .432" size die to just remove excess lube.
No need to add tin, more cost!
Tight fits to the throats is not as important as it is made out to be. I have shot too many 1" groups at 50 yards with .430" boolits from a .4324" throat and .430" groove then I can shake a stick at.
I would just stay with what works for you. You have WW's, so just use it alone.

[Potsy]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm not sure there's a real answer here, but I thought the ensuing discussion would be beneficial, and it has been.

Obviously, the solution to the problem is to stick with 7.0 grn. H-Universal.
I will be experimenting with 7.5 grn. of the same powder and trying 2400 to get in the 900-950 range just to see what happens.

I don't really have the desire to improve on the original load, it just shocked me when the Skeeter load did so poorly. Like I said, I've seen such things with rifles, just have never tried a load with any of my pistols that just refused to give semi-respectable accuracy (maybe I've not been trying hard enough!).

For years I've run wheelweight plus 1-2% tin, recently, I came into a quantity of shot harvested from a local volunteer fire hall where they host regular turkey shoots. From what I've read on the matter, shot runs 8-12 BHN (about like wheelweight) so I figured it wouldn't have a tremendous effect on bullet hardness (this is where I need a hardness tester). I've used this ww/shot/tin alloy for about a year now and can't see where it has effected my .45ACP or my .45 Colt in any noticeable manner; but like was mentioned, each gun is a law unto itself.

I did think of leading so I looked down the bore and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, but probably need to patch and inspect a little closer.

44Man, you stated that you can let boolits age to expand? I've not heard of that. Would you care to elaborate?

[44man]

My .475 boolits are water dropped, sized and lubed at .476" and expand over time to .478". Softer lead will not do this, you need the antimony. Takes a week or two.
I don't add tin to WW's because they cast good as is. I tried it and it made no difference except money.
I do make a harder alloy just for accuracy but most shooting is just with WW metal. Most of my boolits run about 22 BHN. A little less or more means nothing as long as the boolits are tough enough to take the rifling.

[376Steyr]

I had pretty much the same experience with my 4" 624. 7.5 grs of Unique and rock-hard commercial and home-cast SWCs sized .430, with "crayon" consistency lube, was an awful combination with the .432 throats. I was horrified. Could Skeeter have steered me wrong? But when I went to half Pb-half WW, sized to .432, with White Label "2500+" semi-soft lube things got a lot better. FWIW, I find that even though Universal and Unique are supposedly "twins" that individual guns often have a marked preference for one over the other.

[Potsy]

I didn't know that they would grow. All my boolits involve ww (at least half my alloy) so I'll measure the next batch, before and after 2 weeks.

I've got a Miha H&G 503 (.432 dia) ordered. I'll order a .432 sizer in the meantime.
When all that arrives I'll start over again.
I know the pistol will shoot at least one load that I can live with quite happily.
But how much fun is that?