Remington Rider # 3 12 gauge with 38-55 insert, rifle sights

[justashooter]

I recently acquired a Remington # 3 in 12 gauge that has a wide solid rib on top of barrel and rifle sights. It has a 38-55 rifle barrel insert that is installed in the gun by sliding into the barrel from breach end and affixing a tapered nut to the threaded muzzle, which extends thru the shotgun bore by about 3/4 of an inch.

This gun seems to be an "anything that walks or flies on this continent" type combination. the bluing is nearly 100% and the wood is nicely finished. perhaps it is an entire professional re-finish.

The rear sight, which is dovetailed to the rib, has a hinge at rear and flips up to give ladder graduations up to 1000 yards. The front sight, also dovetailed to the rib, is an ivory bead with a see-thru hole drilled underneath. I suppose this was used in bird shooting. the sights appear to be marked "Marbles." the buttplate is the correct R over A bakelite.

Any ideas on what max loading on a combination like this is? i have calculated comparative bolt thrust on basis of base area and CUP as compared to standard 12 gauge loadings, and it seems that 30K CUP loadings in 38-55 are less bolt thrust than 12K CUP shotshell loadings. Serial is 711XX, so about 1902 production.

Any pet loads suggested? I am leaning towards target loads with unique at about 1100 fps and hunting loads with 4227 or 2400 at up to 1400 fps, but also have 3031 available for higher velocity applications. Will be using .379 255 or 285 gr castings at about 20 BHN. Remind me what velocity leading begins at in a vintage bore with narrow rifling, and a twist around 1-30.

[NickSS]

Sounds like a neat combo gun but I would not care to run pressures up beyond about 25K. A really good shooting load that I have used in several 38-55s with excellent accuracy is a 250 gr lead flat point Lee bullet with 18 gr of Accurate Arms 5744. I never chronographed this load but it is around black powder velocities in the 38-55 but has given me excellent accuracy in four out of four of my 38-55 rifles.

[Shooter]

Sounds neat, pictures please.

[leadman]

First time I've seen a picture of this gun and barrel. It does say in the ad for the barrel not for high pressure cartridges.
Trail Boss might be a good powder for the rifle. A call to Hodgdon might help you decide what level to load this to. 800-622-4366.

[bigted]

this is a very cool gun. i would very much like to see and hear more about this combo gun and if the accuracy is indeed up to the 1000yd graduations of the ladder rear.

this must be a factory gun and i have fantasized often about this very combo for a side by side of mine...maybe i a bit larger calibre tho but 38-55 would be fun too i bet.

[Buckshot]

..............I'm with NickSS and leadman and their pressure suggestions for the 38-55 insert barrel. The add states they're "Not adapted for high pressure smokless powder cartridges". This could be taken that they "ARE" safe with low pressure smokeless powder loads? Conversely for the time period of the add and the relative newness of smokless powder it might be taken as they are "Not adapted for those cartridges loaded with that new fangled smokless powder stuff" :-)

After all, Marlin did make M1893's marked, "For Black Powder Only" and not "Low pressure Smokless loads are fine". To my thinking your outfit must be fairly rare, and if I had it I would for sure have to shoot the rifle barrel insert, but respecting its age and obvious value I'd certainly keep the 38-55 loads in the BP realm. It was a superbly accurate schuetzen cartridge and a great deer killer with BP as the propellant back then.

..............Buckshot

[justashooter]

some pix of the gun and carry bag i have for it. the rider is internal hammer, so has a cocking lever on left side of receiver. the forend has a push button release on the front end. otherwise, it is just like any other break action shotgun.

[BerdanIII]

With regard to "high pressure smokeless cartridges"; "high-velocity" loads were made for this for this cartridge, but I have no idea when they were introduced. These might be the loads that Remington wanted you to stay away from.

Ned Robert's (or Roberts/Waters) book would probably have some early BP-equivalent loads using smokeless powder and so would Sharpe. The ASSRA website should be awash in data.

20 BHN sounds a little hard for this application; most of the early big bores used softer alloys; maybe 1:10 or 1:20, but you might want to check on that.

Write up an article for The Fouling Shot and share the story.

Edit: Just saw the photos; that is one neat-looking rig.

[Multigunner]

I have a relic action with stock that appears to be of this model.
The breech face is toast.
If anyone knows someone who can restore it let me know.

The owner left it with me years ago, along with several beat up shotguns found in settling an estate. I managed to restore one and another was fine other than a split barrel.
The split barrel gun was a Remington double. I'd like to find replacement barrels for it since the action is still in fine shape.

[Shooter]

They give me ideas for making rifle inserts.

[Good Cheer]

Various insert barrels for break action shotguns were marketed back in the middle eighties....guess they disappeared?

[bbqncigars]

Thanks for those pictures. That is a seriously sweet looking package. Do be sure to keep the leather in good condition. That case would be rather expensive to replace. FWIW, my favorite leather treatment is Obenauf. (http://www.obenaufs.com/)

[mroliver77]

I shoot my 1895 made Marlin 38-55 with 25-1 lead tin alloy and enough 3031 to get 1400fps. I have used light loads of 4895 also. I like the idea of a more gradual pressure curve with the slower powder. The IMR stick powders burn well in much reduced loadings. This gun never leads the barrel. I have a Winchester made mold that casts pb boolits that are small for this guns chamber/throat. It shoots well and does not lead. The Ranch Dog boolit shoots like nobody's business.
If this were mine, I would keep loads very sensible.
Jay