Accurate recipes for a 10" twist '06, and other stuff

[Marlin Junky]

Anyone have any recipes for success with a 10" twist '06? I've been working with boolits in the BHN 16-30 range and put a lot of lead down range lately, mostly with very disappointing results. I think I'm going to try 35 grains of 3031 and 4895 next week and BHN 15-16 boolits.

I'm not trying to get greedy with this '06... just like to shoot < 1MOA at 1900-2000 fps (it wears a 2x7 Leupold). I've shot a pretty nice group (4 in one hole w/ one flyer) using 17 grains of BD and RCBS 30-165-SIL at 176 grains dressed. That heat treated boolit was pretty darn hard (BHN 27) and left the muzzle at about 1730 fps. Is there kind of a rule of thumb that as the powder burn rate goes down in speed, the boolit needs to be less hard... that is, less hard to just above the point of obturation? (I'm talking just rifles here, please don't confuse the issue with wheel gun paradigms ;)). I've been shooting .3100-.3105" boolits through my M70 which I think slugs a tad over .308" in the grooves. I'll check out my dies this weekend and see if I can find a 450 die that'll size .3090-.3095"; however, a throat impression shows a very short throat that looks to start at .311" at the case mouth and goes to .310" at the commencement of the rifling. Perhaps, since I'm getting good support on the .302+" nose of RCBS 30-165, I shouldn't worry about my M70's silly little short throat... any input?

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Once again I'll suggest starting at 28 gr of H4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 gr increments. Sounds to me like your bullet is a good fit to the M70's throat. Bullets with a BHN of 16 - 20 whould work fine.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

Once again I'll suggest starting at 28 gr of H4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 gr increments. Sounds to me like your bullet is a good fit to the M70's throat. Bullets with a BHN of 16 - 20 whould work fine.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

According to QuickLoad, 29 grains (I don't want to fool with Dacron) of H4895 will develop 12.4K PSI and 1593 fps. I'm looking for a load that'll work at 20K PSI.

MJ

[x101airborne]

Fear not the dacron. I am using it quite a bit in a 30-30 with stellar results. I am not sure if all rifles respond in turn, but my accuracy is what improved with the filler. My speed more or less stayed the same. You can charge hotter and protect the boolit more with the dacron. if youre shooting for 20K, you are probably gonna need the dacron. Now go get that darn pillow youre wife loves and you hate and cut a BIG slit in it. PAYDIRT!!!

[randyrat]

Short barrel, faster powder- Have you tried 2400- I think 28-29 grains will do around 1800-2200 ft/sec maybe a little less because your dealing with 10" barrel
Or will that leave too much empty space in the case?

[Thumbcocker]

20-21 grains of 4759 with any 180-200 grn boolit.

[afrance]

I have had good success with the Lee C309-170 using 29.5 gr of Accurate 5744 in my Savage. My '03 Springfield likes the 28.5 gr load according to my notes. The average velocity of those loads is 2040 fps in the Savage and 1970 fps in the Springfield with my Chrony. Both used neck-sized Winchester brass for the respective rifle and Winchester Magnum primers. My 100yd groups typically are a little outside of your goal at ~1.2" in the Savage and 1.6" in the Springfield but close.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

According to QuickLoad, 29 grains (I don't want to fool with Dacron) of H4895 will develop 12.4K PSI and 1593 fps. I'm looking for a load that'll work at 20K PSI.

MJ

Marlin, note I said to work up. I believe working up loads is the best way to find the accurate load your rifle likes. Further more Quickload doesn't do pressures with dacron. The pressures are higher and so is the velocity with any given charge of powder when using dacron.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin, note I said to work up. I believe working up loads is the best way to find the accurate load your rifle likes.

True, but I don't have a problem with fine accuracy up to about 1850 fps with the powders I've tested so far.


Further more Quickload doesn't do pressures with dacron. The pressures are higher and so is the velocity with any given charge of powder when using dacron.

That's why I plugged in 29 grains instead of your 28 grains. I will try IMR-4895 on Monday but it will probably be 35 grains behind a BHN 15-16, 311041 (180+ grains dressed).


20-21 grains of 4759 with any 180-200 grn boolit.

Thanks for the suggestion... I think I've got about a pound remaining.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I have had good success with the Lee C309-170 using 29.5 gr of Accurate 5744 in my Savage. My '03 Springfield likes the 28.5 gr load according to my notes. The average velocity of those loads is 2040 fps in the Savage and 1970 fps in the Springfield with my Chrony. Both used neck-sized Winchester brass for the respective rifle and Winchester Magnum primers. My 100yd groups typically are a little outside of your goal at ~1.2" in the Savage and 1.6" in the Springfield but close.

Typically, what's the BHN value you're using with those charges of 5744?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Short barrel, faster powder- Have you tried 2400- I think 28-29 grains will do around 1800-2200 ft/sec maybe a little less because your dealing with 10" barrel
Or will that leave too much empty space in the case?

That's a 1:10" twist. :veryconfu

[Marlin Junky]

Fear not the dacron. I am using it quite a bit in a 30-30 with stellar results. I am not sure if all rifles respond in turn, but my accuracy is what improved with the filler. My speed more or less stayed the same. You can charge hotter and protect the boolit more with the dacron. if youre shooting for 20K, you are probably gonna need the dacron. Now go get that darn pillow youre wife loves and you hate and cut a BIG slit in it. PAYDIRT!!!

I've got a big sack of Dacron, I just prefer not to use it in preference for a charge that'll consistently burn w/o it... especially since I'm trying to conjuring up loads for field use.

MJ

P.S. Thank you all for the replies!

[Larry Gibson]

True, but I don't have a problem with fine accuracy up to about 1850 fps with the powders I've tested so far.



That's why I plugged in 29 grains instead of your 28 grains. I will try IMR-4895 on Monday but it will probably be 35 grains behind a BHN 15-16, 311041 (180+ grains dressed).



Thanks for the suggestion... I think I've got about a pound remaining.

MJ

The point was to work up until you hit your targeted "just like to shoot < 1MOA at 1900-2000 fps" . Either 4895 will get you there and still give you excellent accuracy. You will do much better also if you use the dacron filler. Realize you are pushing the RPM threshold at 1900+ fps so everything must fit well to get best accuracy. I realize you've no faith in the RPM threshold but as you continue to try to get consistent "one hole" groups above 1950 fps with your 10" twist '06 you might want to pause and reflect why.

I am only trying to help you.

Larry Gibson

BTW; 29 gr 4895 with a dacron filler under a 170 - 180 gr cast bullet runs around 1850 fps regarless of your faith in Quickload.

[Marlin Junky]

I am only trying to help you.
Larry Gibson


Help me?... you're killing me Larry! :D (from the mattress commercials)

I'm just kidding... but we do have differing ideas about "RPM theory". I suggest that (since I've shot good goups at WAY above "your limit" in other .30 caliber rifles) that the boolit's stability (or lack thereof) is affected in the barrel by land/groove configuration rather than in the atmosphere by excessive rotation.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input but let's please keep on topic. If you want to talk about RPM theory, let's do it elsewhere.

Thank you,
MJ

[Larry Gibson]

Marlin

You want to get that bullet to 1900 - 2000 fps with "one hole accuracy", that is the topic I am talking about trying to help you get there. The RPM threshold is not a "limit", never was and I never said it was. However if you are going to "push" through the threshold then you must slow the burning rate down by using a slower burning powder and yet have consistent ignition at the same time. In this case, 4895 will get you there with a dacron filler. Without the dacron filler you have to use too much powder for consistent ignition. That translates into too much velocity for the accuracy you want, at the velocity you want, within the psi you want and is causing the adverse problems within the barrel you are talking about. There is no "inaccuracy" within the barrel. All the bullets are traveling down the same hole and in "one hole" at the muzzle. It is the defects caused in casting, sizing, loading and during accelleration in the barrel that makes cast bullets accurate or not accurate.

I've assumed you can cast good bullets, know how to size them and can load them without any damage to them. That leaves the accelleration that you've got to tame to get the "one hole accuracy" at 1900 - 2000 fps. Since you can't/aren't going to change the "land/groove configuration" of the barrel then that leaves accelleration. I assumed that's why you're asking about loads. That's what I'm talking about, successfully controlling the accelleration with a correct load to minimise damage to the bullet inside the barrel of your 10" twist 30-06.

I've used that bullet and several others of equal design and close to the same weight in many, many '06s over the years including the 6 rifles of '06 persaation I currently have, all with 10" twists. I've always found very good accuracy, just what you are asking for, using the combination I am trying to get you to try.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

....I've always found very good accuracy, just what you are asking for, using the combination I am trying to get you to try.

Larry Gibson

OK Larry, I'll use your 3/4 grain of Dacron... but I'm not going to waste my time with 28 grains of IMR-4895. I'll load 10 rounds with 34 grains of IMR-4895 and 3/4 grain Dacron and 10 rounds w/o the Dacron. That should get me into the 1900-2000 fps ballpark (at least w/ the Dacron load).

Thanks for the help...
MJ

[afrance]

Typically, what's the BHN value you're using with those charges of 5744?

I don't have a hardness tester so these are guesses. I originally used WW with a bit of tin added in, oven treated and guesstimated them at 22-24 BHN. Since then I used WW, sweetened with a small amount of Linotype (8 lbs WW/ half pound of lino) air cooled and guesstimated 14 -15 BHN. These are gas checked and sized about .0015 over grooves and eliminating the extra step was a convenience that didn't change the results for me.

[zomby woof]

Here are my go to loads with my 10 twist rifles.

03A3:
30 grains 3031 with 311299
18.5 grains 2400 with 180 LEE


M1 Garand:
41.5 grains 4831 with .4-.5 grains of dacron and 311299

[RU shooter]

Here are some that worked for me,May not meet your 1900 fps as I dont check the speed, but accurate in my rifle Lee 155 and 18 gr 2400 or 16 gr Unique similar loads same two powders but with the Lee 185 and lyman 311467.

You stated you had fine accuracy at 1850 fps So why the need for the extra 50 fps ? hunting loads? longer range target load?.Just asking....

[Marlin Junky]

Here are some that worked for me,May not meet your 1900 fps as I dont check the speed, but accurate in my rifle Lee 155 and 18 gr 2400 or 16 gr Unique similar loads same two powders but with the Lee 185 and lyman 311467.

You stated you had fine accuracy at 1850 fps So why the need for the extra 50 fps ? hunting loads? longer range target load?.Just asking....

Those loads used 500F HT boolits that were BHN 27-30 after about a week or two, used faster burning powders and I wasn't happy with the occasional flyer. I did discover some good plinker loads (albeit gaschecked) all the way down to about 1600 fps using shotgun powders; however, I really want to extend the point blank range out a bit further by doing 2000+ fps with something like RCBS 30-165-SIL.

MJ

[nanuk]

Marlin Junky: I've been doing some reading on the 06.

what is your barrel configuration?

[excess650]

I'm shooting heavier bullets, but here goes:

200gr Saeco #301 29-30gr AA5744, F210M primers, RP cases
or
29-30gr H322, and this latter load works with 185-220gr bullets in a friend's '03

175gr Saeco #315 23-24gr AA5744, F210, RP cases (also worked with 200gr Saeco #301)

200gr Saeco #301 28-30gr AA2015, F210M, RP cases

Your boolit hardness at sub 20bhn is plenty hard, and it sounds like you already have a good fit. Try another lube? I use LBT Blue or Blue Soft.

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky: I've been doing some reading on the 06.

what is your barrel configuration?

It's a 4-groove Pre-64 M70. Looks to be about .3085" in the grooves and a tad over .300" (IIRC) across the lands.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...and it sounds like you already have a good fit. Try another lube? I use LBT Blue or Blue Soft.

Actually, I'm thinking about trying a boolit in the .3090" to .3095" range. My Lube is mostly BAC with a bit of Soft Blue mixed in. Soft Blue is too hard for 2000 fps in the winter.

BTW, my 4895 loads need to have the COL reduced and retried on Wednesday.

MJ