.500 jrh wounding abilities

[outdoorfan]

Here's a question I've had for quite some time ever since jwp475 and MikeG (of the Beartooth Shooter's forum) posted their results on elk and bison (links below). Now, the meplat is what wounds, as far as what I've heard and understood. Well, both of those animals died from heavy bullets at 950 fps. Both bullets had (I think) 78% meplats. That's good for .39 inch. That should translate, according to Veral's formula, into a .92 inch wound channel. Theoretically, a 44 or 45 with a fairly stout load behind a good wfn should easily equal that. BUT, I've never seen nor heard it reported that somebody with their hot loaded 44 or 45 made anywhere near that big (wide) of a wound channel as what those two gentlemen reported from their "wimpy" loaded jrh.

Is this one of those fluke things or is there something else in play that allows a "wimpy" loaded .500 with a good flat meplat to way outkill a hot-rodded 44 or 45?


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=29550
http://forum.exbabylon.net/showthread.htm?p=370230

[ole 5 hole group]

The 50 caliber meplats go 90% and better (Ranger Rick's) while others go around 80% or a tad more. Displacing 0.46" and 0.41" makes a mess in soft tissue and then add a little shock wave to boot. The 50's can put the "hurt" on most anything that walks, flys or crawls. Run up the velocity on those bad boys and you can put a little hurt on yourself as well.

[Dill45]

You also have to account for the weight of the bullets. Most 45's and 44's can't shoot a 400+ grain bullet.

Hard to stop a bullet that big regardless of how fast its going.

As far as your question goes, I can't really say. Don't know enough to really say.

[jwp475]

Here's a question I've had for quite some time ever since jwp475 and MikeG (of the Beartooth Shooter's forum) posted their results on elk and bison (links below). Now, the meplat is what wounds, as far as what I've heard and understood. Well, both of those animals died from heavy bullets at 950 fps. Both bullets had (I think) 78% meplats. That's good for .39 inch. That should translate, according to Veral's formula, into a .92 inch wound channel. Theoretically, a 44 or 45 with a fairly stout load behind a good wfn should easily equal that. BUT, I've never seen nor heard it reported that somebody with their hot loaded 44 or 45 made anywhere near that big (wide) of a wound channel as what those two gentlemen reported from their "wimpy" loaded jrh.

Is this one of those fluke things or is there something else in play that allows a "wimpy" loaded .500 with a good flat meplat to way outkill a hot-rodded 44 or 45?


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=29550
http://forum.exbabylon.net/showthread.htm?p=370230

Yes the bullets had a meplat of 78% which is optimal IMHO for wound channel size and penetration. If the Meplat gets much bigger penetration is comprised, much smaller and wound channel size is comprimized and so is penetration


This picture is of the exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull elk


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesfrom2006061.jpg


The ammo was the Buffalo Bore 440 grain at an advertised velocity of 950 FPS. This is the same ammo that MikeG shot his Bison with.

The 500 JRH is a very effective round and I have shot the 425 grain load ( also 78% meplat) at 1380 FPS through both shoulders of a Asian Buffalo broking on the on side support bone and exiting the other shoulder and continuing across the country

The is no substitute for bore diametewr in revlovers IMHO & E

[outdoorfan]

jwp475,

That is very impressive, and I'm glad you stopped by to comment. Are you saying, based upon your experience, that there is something almost mysterious/mystical that happens when a heavy bullet is combined with a good meplat that cannot be obtained with small calibers? Was that wound channel (and Mike's) somewhat of a norm, or was that just a fluke so-to-speak? Maybe it also has something to do with the size of the game (bison vs deer)? What have your results been (diameter of the wound channel) on smaller game like deer?

(Trying to further wrap my mind around why the .500's, even at slow velocity, seem to kill so well)

[outdoorfan]

You also have to account for the weight of the bullets. Most 45's and 44's can't shoot a 400+ grain bullet.

Hard to stop a bullet that big regardless of how fast its going.

As far as your question goes, I can't really say. Don't know enough to really say.


The theory here is that smaller calibers lose speed faster due to lighter weights. However, they can still have similar sectional densities as bigger calibers based upon bullet weight. BUT, if a smaller caliber uses too big a meplat, then velocity/momentum through the animal may be compromised.

[jwp475]

jwp475,

That is very impressive, and I'm glad you stopped by to comment. Are you saying, based upon your experience, that there is something almost mysterious/mystical that happens when a heavy bullet is combined with a good meplat that cannot be obtained with small calibers? Was that wound channel (and Mike's) somewhat of a norm, or was that just a fluke so-to-speak? Maybe it also has something to do with the size of the game (bison vs deer)? What have your results been (diameter of the wound channel) on smaller game like deer?

(Trying to further wrap my mind around why the .500's, even at slow velocity, seem to kill so well)

Nothing mystical about it. The 50,s are simple much bigger thus the larger wound channels. The only time that a 45 cal will leave a better wound channel than a 50 is when the 50 is loaded with poor bullets (round nose, or small meplat flat points) and the 45 is loaded with wide meplat bullets, then it is possible for the 45 to leave better wound channels.

I have not shot a Deer with a 50, but Whitworth has and he had some very impressive wound channels

A 50 loaded to 900 to 1000 FPS is a big hammer yet still has the potential to be loaded up for more penetration on the biggest of game

[jwp475]

The theory here is that smaller calibers lose speed faster due to lighter weights. However, they can still have similar sectional densities as bigger calibers based upon bullet weight. BUT, if a smaller caliber uses too big a meplat, then velocity/momentum through the animal may be compromised.

SD will not accurately predict penetration, nose shape and meplat have more to do with penetration from my test and others as well. In the big bore forum on Accurate reloading there is a thread called "Terminal Performance" that is over 104 or 5 pages. If one looks through the thread you will find many bullets with proper meplat out penetrating higher SD bullets. These were test with big bore rifles, but I have seen the same thing with handguns

[44man]

Whitworth and I are shooting a 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps---WHY, because that is where it is the most accurate, not because a little slower does not work.
Both of us seem to be immune to the recoil and the only thing to watch is barrel rise control.
Even a real light .44 will give you fits with elevation changes from different shooting positions. You can under shoot or over shoot with any caliber but the large ones need more control.
The simple fact is that the big bores just kill better, just like a round ball from a ML works better as caliber gets larger.

[jwp475]

With H-110/296 top end loads are more accurate, but change powders for the lower velocity rounds and the accuracy will be there for sure and for certain

[ole 5 hole group]

Whitworth and I are shooting a 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps---WHY, because that is where it is the most accurate, not because a little slower does not work.

Both of us seem to be immune to the recoil and the only thing to watch is barrel rise control.

That is a serious load in a BFR 500 JRH and isn't any fun at all with a 6" barrel. If you two go out and lite off 60 rounds apiece - I tip my hat to ya.

Barrel control is the major goal but keeping your trigger finger from getting hammered every now & then is another goal, as that will make a nice flyer.

I sent some load data to Whitworth for the 500L Max - there's one in there that will test your "immunity to recoil":bigsmyl2:

[cottonstalk]

While I will not dispute that a "50"is bigger,and may cause severe damage their ain't no flies on the 45!http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/cottonstalk/45deer011.jpg

[44man]

That is a serious load in a BFR 500 JRH and isn't any fun at all with a 6" barrel. If you two go out and lite off 60 rounds apiece - I tip my hat to ya.

Barrel control is the major goal but keeping your trigger finger from getting hammered every now & then is another goal, as that will make a nice flyer.

I sent some load data to Whitworth for the 500L Max - there's one in there that will test your "immunity to recoil":bigsmyl2:
The BFR has not hurt us yet and 100 rounds is doable. His has a 6" barrel.
The Max would be a different story as are all the lighter guns and there is sure a limit to comfort. I do not want any gun that hurts or cuts me.
We might be dense but are not stupid! :redneck:------Well I have seen Whitworth wrap a pile of band aids on fingers for guns that did not hurt me at all, so I don't know what to say!
I have limits and I think the JRH is it.

[Whitworth]

The BFR has not hurt us yet and 100 rounds is doable. His has a 6" barrel.
The Max would be a different story as are all the lighter guns and there is sure a limit to comfort. I do not want any gun that hurts or cuts me.
We might be dense but are not stupid! :redneck:------Well I have seen Whitworth wrap a pile of band aids on fingers for guns that did not hurt me at all, so I don't know what to say!
I have limits and I think the JRH is it.


Yeah, because it used to cut my trigger finger. It doesn't anymore. Okay tough guy, why don't you shoot the .50 Alaskan a bit??!! And I don't want to hear anything about the Bisley grip frame! :bigsmyl2:

[ole 5 hole group]

Yeah, because it used to cut my trigger finger. It doesn't anymore. Okay tough guy, why don't you shoot the .50 Alaskan a bit??!! And I don't want to hear anything about the Bisley grip frame! :bigsmyl2:

Did your trigger finger develop a nice sized callous on the inside of the 1st knuckle? Took a lot of rounds and a pint of blood before my trigger finger toughen up with those 1,300/1,400fps loads with that 440 grain boolit.

14 grains of HS-6 with the 440 grain groups well in my pissoliver and is easy on the shooter.

[outdoorfan]

cottonstalk,

That is an impressive wound channel. What bullet/velocity were you using?

[cottonstalk]

outdoorfan,thats from a 300gr WFN @ 1150-1200fps.

[44man]

Yeah, because it used to cut my trigger finger. It doesn't anymore. Okay tough guy, why don't you shoot the .50 Alaskan a bit??!! And I don't want to hear anything about the Bisley grip frame! :bigsmyl2:
The grip is 100% the reason. Dead smooth, shiny, pretty, no filler behind the guard and useless for my big knuckle. Need super glue to keep it from rotating! :mrgreen:

[44man]

outdoorfan,thats from a 300gr WFN @ 1150-1200fps.
I get the same with a 335 gr at 1160 fps. I consider a .45 with the proper boolits a "BIG BORE."
I do not look down my nose at them.

[Whitworth]

Did your trigger finger develop a nice sized callous on the inside of the 1st knuckle? Took a lot of rounds and a pint of blood before my trigger finger toughen up with those 1,300/1,400fps loads with that 440 grain boolit.

14 grains of HS-6 with the 440 grain groups well in my pissoliver and is easy on the shooter.

Yeah, LOL, there's a divot in my finger covered with callous! The most offensive loads were the Buffalo Bore 425s at 1,450 -- especially when the gun was wearing Micarta. Not bad at all with the rubber grips.

[Whitworth]

The grip is 100% the reason. Dead smooth, shiny, pretty, no filler behind the guard and useless for my big knuckle. Need super glue to keep it from rotating! :mrgreen:

Blah, blah, blah......:kidding:

[44man]

Blah, blah, blah......:kidding:
Whose head was split open? :bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

Whose head was split open? :bigsmyl2:

Mine, but I kept shooting it and still shoot it, don't I?

[jwp475]

Bisley grips Rule, Plow Handle Ruger grips Drool.......:kidding::bigsmyl2: