Winchester 1895 Rifle in .405 Win.

[doubs43]

Does anyone here have a rifle chambered in 405 Winchester that they reload using cast bullets?

I've just bought a Winchester 1895 High Grade Teddy Roosevelt Commemorative in 405 Winchester and I want to shoot it with cast bullets. I've found all the things I need to reload except cases which are only made by Hornady. They aren't expected to make another run until February, 2011 so I either have to buy factory ammunition to get the cases or try to make some from 9.3x74R cases.

If anyone here has experience forming 405 cases from 9.3x74R cases, I'd like to hear about it.

[Don McDowell]

Either go on Gunbroker etc and look for cases, or just buy a couple boxes of factory ammo and go from there. Case life is pretty good even when pushing the envelope with jacketed bullets. I've lost more cases over the years crushing/collapsing them from not getting enough flare on the case mouth than I have anything else.
2 cast bullets stand out for me, the first is the Lyman 412263 cast from #2 alloy (you can buy those already cast from Montana Bullet works) and BACO has a 300 gr gc bullet that's a good one, they sell both the mould and bullets cast. Biggest problem with gaschecking bullets for the 405 nowdays is the only checks available are the .416's from Hornady and unless the mould makers have got up to speed the shanks are small enough those checks will be able to spin on the bullet after seating.
5744 powder is the cast bullet powder as far as I'm concerned.

[451whitworth]

i shoot a LBT 350gr. LFN GC @.414" out of mine.

[sliphammer]

I have 100 new Hornaday cases and 4 boxes of once fired WRA brass. I will let go of some. Send me a PM if you're interested.

[doubs43]

Sliphammer, PM sent.

[ammohead]

D43,

I have a take down 95 in 405. I put together a 350 gr flat round nose with plain base on Mountain moulds. I use 45 gr of imr 4895 with a cardboard wad and a 1/4 boolit lube cookie between the cardwad and boolit base. I get 1800+ fps and about 2 moa accuracy. I took a medium sized black bear sow with it in coastal WA this Sep.

ammohead

[doubs43]

D43, I have a take down 95 in 405. I put together a 350 gr flat round nose with plain base on Mountain moulds. I use 45 gr of imr 4895 with a cardboard wad and a 1/4 boolit lube cookie between the cardwad and boolit base. I get 1800+ fps and about 2 moa accuracy. I took a medium sized black bear sow with it in coastal WA this Sep. ammohead

ammohead, that's an impressive load giving very good accuracy. I've written down the data for your load for future reference. Thank you for the information.

[Wayne Smith]

I use a 350gr WFN from Bullshop in mine. I'm pushing it at about 2100fps. I didn't figure I wanted to shoot it all that much to invest in a mold. It does hurt a little.

[doubs43]

I use a 350gr WFN from Bullshop in mine. I'm pushing it at about 2100fps. I didn't figure I wanted to shoot it all that much to invest in a mold. It does hurt a little.

Ouch! That's quite a stiff load in an 1895 Winchester! The factory loads of 2350 FPS with a 300 grain bullet are more than my old bones care to endure. I'm thinking more along the lines of 1700 FPS with my cast 300 grain bullets. That should easily take down the small steel pigs we shoot at 150 meters. The biggest challenge is hitting the darn things!

[Don McDowell]

28 grs of 5744 with the Lyman bullet give 1750 from my rifle. The shoot well to 200 meters and leave little doubt about a hit on steel...

[doubs43]

28 grs of 5744 with the Lyman bullet give 1750 from my rifle. The shoot well to 200 meters and leave little doubt about a hit on steel...

Don, that's a load that should be fun to shoot and also take down our steel pigs reliably. I'll give it a try when I've gotten all my reloading "stuff" for my 405 together. Thanks.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
No I don´t but I would like to shoot yours also !

[muskeg13]

Congratulations on acquiring a fine rifle, especially a fine rifle for shooting cast boolits. I've been shooting a Miroku .405 since 2003, and have had some success with cast boolits.

405 Hornady brass can't be beat, so it's worth waiting for the next run or buying a few boxes of factory ammo if you can't wait. Shoot the normal Hornady .405 300 grain ammo as opposed to the really pricey Teddy Roosevelt special printed box stuff. You pay twice as much for the pretty printing for the same ammo. A very long time ago (1995), I was not happy with Bertram .405 Brass. Their .405 cases had very thin necks and haphazard rim thicknesses. I have reloaded Hornady cases numerous times and have never lost a case. They are thick enough to be termed "Everlasting" as were some Sharps cases of long ago. Hornady cases are so thick that I sometimes have to fireform a case the first time before I can load it without undue force.

Here's where the undersized commercial cast bullets come in handy. Store bought cast bullets are probably sized .410 or .411 and are rock hard. They will do OK , but aren't what you really need. If your rifle is like mine, it will probably have a .4125 bore. Consider the RCBS .417-350 mould that is readily available. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=282505
I bought a .413 sizer from Buffalo Arms, use Hornady .416 gas checks. No problems. Using WW and about 2% tin, my .405 boolits run about 363 grains and test out at about Lyman #2 alloy for hardness.

Use my load data for reference only, but I load 49.0gr of Reloader 7 for an average of 2279fps and get < 3" groups. There are absolutely no signs of excessive pressure in my rifle, but I can't vouch for any other. No doubt that this load wakes you up, but you bought a lion killer, not a mouse gun.

I have a few other recommendations:

1. At your first opportunity replace the factory semi-buckhorn rear sight with some form of aperature (peep) sight. The Lyman Model 21 and 38 are traditional, and the Providence Tool Company offers a modern M21. Other receiver sights like those made by Lyman, Redfield and others can probably be made to work. The bottom line is that I shrunk my group sizes in half when I went to a receiver sight.

2. Redo the buttplate. Either install a good recoil reducing rubber pad or a better fitting steel plate. I went with a nice checkered Neidner steel plate from Brownells and have no complaints.

3. Go hunt something big. That's what this rifle was designed to do. I've only killed one animal with my rifle, a young bull moose, unfortunately with handloaded factory bullets, but the difference between the .405 hits and those of my hunting partner's .308 were amazing.

[Don McDowell]

Doubs have you seen the Lyman 66 wb that BACO has listed? It's the wide base for the 86,71 and 95's and has the target knobs on it. Might just be the ticket for your levergun sillywet shootin.

[405]

[QUOTE=muskeg13;1079616]

"Use my load data for reference only, but I load 49.0gr of Reloader 7 for an average of 2279fps and get < 3" groups. "

Can't argue with the good info you posted about the 405 but a 363 gr at 2279 fps- OUCH!
I'll let you shoot it and grin from the sidelines. :)

doubs43,

Ditto on saying congrats on your choice of a good gun. The Hornady brass is the way to go. Patience I guess on finding some. My 1895 405 is an original with a .414 groove. I would imagine the new ones are fairly standard and likely smaller. I shoot mine quite a bit with a 320 gr cast gas checked bullet at about 15 BHN. Much past about 1500-1700 fps I start losing accuracy and the recoil does become something to deal with. I made a leather lace-on pad for mine, not so much as a soft recoil pad but simply to flatten and enlarge the butt surface. Still, off the bench especially, they do have enough drop in the buttstock to whack the cheek bone with the heavier loads. My favorite powders for the 405 are 4895, Rel 7 and 5744. The comfortable load I shoot a lot is- 320 gr cast, 24 gr 5744 with dacron filler at about 1400 fps. And, as others have posted, a good receiver aperture sight helps accurate shooting.

[doubs43]

Muskeg13 & 405, thanks to you both for some great information. Nothing helps more than the knowledge of others who have the experience and are willing to share. I'm writing the load data down and will use it to help in my load development. I must echo 405's comment about a 363 grain bullet at 2279 FPS.... OUCH!!

Don, I've ordered a Williams FP-71-TK receiver sight. It will allow me to keep the rifle original by simply removing the sight and replacing the two screw hole plugs with the originals. The Lyman 66 sounds like a nice sight but I wish they still made all steel peep sights.

It looks like I'll get my mold, dies and other items from BACO on Friday. That's OK as it's too darn cold and windy here to do much outside. I'll try to cast some bullets this weekend.

[Don McDowell]

I put one of the Lyman 38 repros on mine. Wish I would of went with the Williams. Actually the rifle shot very well with the One Ragged Hole sight I mounted on it, and for 99% of what I've done with the rifle that would of been good enough.

[StrawHat]

I have an 1895 in 405 WCF. Mine was rebarreled and reworked from a 30Gov't rifle made in 1900. Anyway, the Lyman 412263 and 5477 are what works for me. (I have some 350 grain boolits, a gift from another board member, but I don't recall the mold there were poured from. Makes it hard to replicate the load!)

The Lyman boolit is a good authentic choice of boolit. As for sights, whatever works is a good choice.

[StrawHat]

We've done a couple of threads on the 405 WCF, you might find these interesting.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31615

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68518&highlight=405+WCF

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37479&highlight=405+WCF

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=94629

[doubs43]

The great information just keeps coming! Thanks Strawhat for the information and the excellent links.

Update: A fellow member has sold me 100 new Hornady cases that should be shipped today! They're exactly what I need.

My order from BACO should be arriving tomorrow if FedEx's delivery date is accurate. Then I can cast some bullets (Lyman 300 grain RN). I'll also be able to run the 20 cut-down 9.3x74R cases through a sizing die to reduce the base diameter to 405 case specs. They're about .008" too large now and won't go all the way into the chamber. Then I can fire-form them and trim to the proper length. (I ordered them before I was offered the Hornady cases.)

The Williams FP-71-TK has arrived and I've installed it on the rifle... screwed right on. The hunting aperture disk it came with has much too large an opening so I put an old Lyman target aperture disk in until I can get a Merit adjustable disk.

Things are coming together and I hope to have a shooting session either this weekend or early next week. I've gotten so much good input on this thread and I really appreciate all your help.

[StrawHat]

...The great information just keeps coming! Thanks Strawhat for the information and the excellent links...

Your welcome.


...The Williams FP-71-TK has arrived and I've installed it on the rifle... screwed right on. The hunting aperture disk it came with has much too large an opening so I put an old Lyman target aperture disk in until I can get a Merit adjustable disk....


Depending on what you are using the rifle for, the merit disk may be overkill. I have a Lyman receiver sight on mine and use it with the regular aperture for sighting in and then remove the aperture when hunting or plinking. Your eye ceters the front sight in the rear ring. It works for hunting and plinking. Now if you are using the 1895 for target work, you're a better man than I. Although the Wimbeldon was once won by a fellow using an 1895 but I believe it was cut for the 30 Gov't cartridge.

A photo of my rear sight.

[doubs43]

Depending on what you are using the rifle for, the merit disk may be overkill. I have a Lyman receiver sight on mine and use it with the regular aperture for sighting in and then remove the aperture when hunting or plinking. Your eye ceters the front sight in the rear ring. It works for hunting and plinking. Now if you are using the 1895 for target work, you're a better man than I. Although the Wimbeldon was once won by a fellow using an 1895 but I believe it was cut for the 30 Gov't cartridge.

A photo of my rear sight.

That's a nice Lyman sight. I have a few on various rifles and it's a shame that Lyman doesn't make the all steel sights any longer. The same lament applies to Redfield, Vaver etc.... they all made outstanding target sights.

I'll be using the rifle in our local "Lever Action & Revolver" matches shooting steel 8" squares at 100 meters and steel pig silhouettes at 150 meters. Cast bullets only.

My problem with the .093" aperture disk that came with the Williams sight is that it's too large an opening and my eyes see two front sights, one atop the other! The much smaller opening in the Lyman disk I borrowed from a Winchester Model 52 works perfectly. Finding such disks now isn't as easy as it once was and the Merit offers infinite adjustments in aperture size within it's range. I can also use the Merit on other rifles. The #3 Merit seems about right and costs about $50.

I'd love to have another 1895 Grade 1 rifle chambered in 30-40 (30 Gov.) and maybe one day I can swing it but not now. I have a very nice Lyman 205 grain round nose mold that should be perfect for the cartridge.

[muskeg13]

You can't go wrong with a Merit. It isn't just useful on the target range as you can adjust the aperature opening when hunting to account for changing light conditions. I wish I could use a Merit disc on my '95. I have a Lyman Model 38 reproduction that at least offers 2 aperature sizes. I have a Merit installed on a Lyman sight on my M1886, and it works like a charm.

[doubs43]

Update. Today I fire-formed some 9.3x74R brass to make 405 Winchester cases. I've trimmed them and they're in the polishing bowl right now. However, I have 100 proper cases on the way and I'll put these back "just in case". But, I may have a chance to load them tomorrow and try to get some sight settings. I'll let everyone know if I do.

[doubs43]

I would like to publicly give a huge thanks to Sliphammer for not only his kindness in selling me some .405 Winchester cases but also for the immediate shipping of same. He sent some cast bullets and a couple of jacketed bullets too.

What a great bunch of guys we have on Cast Boolits!!

[Just Duke]

:castmine: