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13Echo
10-13-2006, 10:28 PM
In light of the recent thread on traditional muzzle loaders I thought this recent message from the president of Pedersoli was very interesting. Pedersoli makes a lot of muzzle loading rifles, both traditional and inline. Food for thought and discussion.

13Echo

"In the past we allowed Mr. Bridges to test our traditional ML rifles
as well as our inline ML rifles and he had our cooperation and
limited sponsorship. Due to the new path Mr. Bridges has taken , in
which traditional muzzle loading rifles would no longer have their
current exclusive hunting period and in which inline rifles would
hunt at the same time as the traditional rifles, we have withdrawn
our former support and sponsorship of Toby Bridges."

"The Davide Pedersoli company has advised Mr. Toby Bridges to remove
our company name from any list of sponsors who support his lobbying
efforts because even though we manufacture in-line muzzle loading
rifles, we strongly support the use of traditional types of
flintlock and percussion lock rifles during hunting periods assigned
to muzzle loading rifles.
We always believed that the hunting with muzzleloading guns, both
traditional and modern black powder in-line rifles, could co-exist,
even if two different muzzleloading hunting seasons would be more
required. Certainly we never thought they could get into conflict
with each other.
We regret Toby Bridge's decision which surprised us, considering
that in the past he took important positions, which we could share,
but absolutely not his last one.
The use of traditional muzzleloading rifles for hunting has all the
historical, political and rational reasons to continue and to expand
and cannot be forced to die, as Toby Bridges warns and predicts (and
is trying to make happen) nor can be the enthusiasm and will of
people who are dedicated to this traditional sector be disregarded.
On the contrary, the traditional muzzle loading guns contributed
surely much more than the modern inline muzzleloading guns have to
the muzzle loading hunting being accepted in our states. Rather than
trying to promote the inline rifles and push aside the exclusive
hunting season for traditional percussion or flintlock rifles we
should all be working to strengthen the separation of hunting seasons
for archers, traditional muzzle loading rifles, the powerful inline
rifles and of course the modern cartridge rifles."

"The inline rifles compare directly with modern high power cartridge
rifles and we hope that all government officials involved with making
or changing hunting rules will recognize the big advantage in power
and range which inline rifles (which use conical bullets) have over
the traditional antique or replica rifles which use round ball
bullets. Both archery hunters and traditional muzzle loading rifle
hunters accept the great challenge and limitation of their hunting
weapons, the need to stalk the game and get very close in order to
make a clean killing shot. For the inline rifle and modern cartridge
rifle hunters a much different challenge is presented and the mixing
of traditional and inline rifles in the field at the same time would
be unexceptable to the vast majority of traditional muzzle loading
rifle users."

"I read the letter Toby Bridges published in his web site in which he
explained he has been misunderstood. I acknowledge his effort,
however this letter gives me the opportunity to contradict Toby about
the in-line rifles being the natural modern evolution of the
muzzleloading guns.
The real modern aspect was when many years ago some of the American
states opened the hunting season to the muzzleloading guns. This was
a modernity sign! What happened later with the introduction of the in-
line rifles and the continuous improvements to reach high
performances, such as the use of pelletized substitute powder,
waterproof ignition systems or sabot bullets, etc. made the modern
muzzloading guns get closer to the modern cartridge gun performance.
I am convinced that the hunters using in-line rifles are only taking
advantage of this enhanced performance in a dedicated muzzleloading
hunting season. I am also convinced that if the muzzleloading hunting
season becomes an "open hunting season", several of the users of the
in-line rifles will drop their rifles to hunt only with the modern
ones.
I have to say that I am fond of the hunt in all its aspects, I am a
hunter with modern guns, with cartridge guns and with muzzleloading
traditional guns."

"Davide Pedersoli is not against the modern In-line rifle hunting,
which we consider as an alternative and different activity from the
one with traditional guns . Without doubt, hunting with traditional
guns must be protected and sustained in the spirit of the rules
approved in many of the American states because it gives the American
sportsman a hunting challenge and emotional satisfaction which no
other type of gun can give."

Pierangelo Pedersoli,
President

9.3X62AL
10-13-2006, 11:55 PM
I can only respect and applaud Mr. Pedersoli--or any man or woman with similar courage of their convictions. I am in agreement with his position--but even if I weren't, I can appreciate the subtext of integrity his words convey.

gregg
10-14-2006, 12:30 AM
Thank You for the information. Toby making a real dust up.

Junior1942
10-14-2006, 07:35 AM
Pedersoli gets an attaboy from me.

waksupi
10-14-2006, 09:25 AM
Good on them! A letter of this type from a manufacturer, will carry more weight in legislation, than any individual effort.

9.3X62AL
10-14-2006, 11:51 AM
California does not have a muzzle-loader SEASON per se, although a few local hunts have come and gone. Front-loaders have to compete with the SAUM/RUM-worshippers during the general season here. I can only imagine the UPROAR if archers--who have their tackle-specific season set aside prior to rifle season--had rifle OR muzzle-loading hunters in the field with them. This guy is way outta line, in my view--and could undo a LOT of hard work done my conservationists over many years' time.

Willbird
10-14-2006, 12:28 PM
Well hmm, most know I have one of the evil beats and like it. I wonder if the bow makers are next going to take similar action against states that allow compound bows, aluminum arrows, the mechanical broadheads that open on impact, releases.....front pin sights, rear peep sights, scopes, crossbows...arrow rests, etc ?? For the sake of tradition we should limit it to recurves bare of any sights right ?? And wood shaft arrows with natural fletching held on with hide glue ? Also no camo clothing, no artificial scents or lures, no fancy activated charcoal lined clothing, and some strict limits on tree stands because after all that was a HUGE innovation for the average bow hunter. IN fact european origin people for the most part never hunted game on this continent with bows ands arrows, so there is no tradition to even uphold there, if we are going to uphold the tradition of english hunters in robin hoods day then bow hunters are gonna have to sell a LOT of gadgets and toys to get back to tradition.

On our traditional muzzle loaders are we going to allow coil sprint locks ?? improved sights ?? plastic or fiberglass stocks ?? Are we going to limit it to only patched round balls or are we going to allow the successful designs like the Enfield rifled musket that allowed much longer range and a lightning fast reload in comparison to a patched round ball ?? At which point of history are we going to lock the game ?? How about the traditional underhammer design which functionally is very similar to the inline (nipple touches the powder)?? If we are gonna go back to flinters for tradition sake, then we might think on whether or not we will allow rifling at all :-)

Should we allow pyrodex ??

I'll be the first to admit I picked my inline because it is the most accurate rifle that fit the rules.......same-same as the "slug" hunters that use rifled hastings bbls and remington copper solid sabot slugs....making a "slug gun" a 200 yard 50-70 rifle in fairly competant hands. And right in with the handgun hunters that use BFR's with scopes on them...or the same in a TC contender chambered in 375 winchestor or 45/70 both of which are legal in ohio's gun season as "handguns"

The inline design is nothing NEW, you may prove me wrong on that but I have one my dad was working on in 1969 in his garage shop where I grew up....I'll bet a $5 spot that the inline design originated right about when the first pellet priming or paper tape primers came into use, which puts it right there with ANY caplock as a historically accurate design.

refinement and modern mfg. methods have vastly improved even traditonal black powder rifles, I doubt the average user back in the day enjoyed the level of precision used in todays "traditional" black powder rifles.

Bill

ktw
10-14-2006, 02:23 PM
Well hmm, most know I have one of the evil beats and like it....

The current dust-up isn't about whether people should be allowed to choose between traditional sidelock or modern inline muzzleloading rifles.

It has to do with Toby Bridges campaign to force the 14 or so states that do not allow optics on rifles during their muzzleloading season to do so by filing a complaint with the federal government that the no-optics rules descriminate against older hunters with poor eyesight, putting those states federal funding for wildlife programs at risk.

In order to cow, or distract, the traditional muzzleloaders from opposing his optics campaign, he has also threatened to go after the use of roundballs during hunting season as 'ineffective' projectiles. This really got the traditional camp in an uproar. Hence their letter writing campaign to Bridge's corporate sponsors, including Pedersoli, Green Mountain and others.

-ktw

hobbles
10-14-2006, 05:20 PM
Evenin ktw
Yep, it's the roundball thing that's got most of us upset, My buddy uses one of those Tupperware thing'ies, and we have fun together, kinda like ford and "CHEVY" owners, I like the old ways and the round ball and he don't,, we both get our deer and have a drink together afterwards,,

Willbird
10-14-2006, 05:52 PM
Roundballs are cool, that was my biggest gripe about a lot of replica traditional rifles out there, the twist was too fast for round balls. There sure is not an easier projectile to cast than a round ball, and it uses the least amount of lead of about any kind of projectile (there are exceptions).

Bill

drinks
10-14-2006, 08:30 PM
Willbird;
With you 100%, Inline flintlocks were made as far back as 1700, revolvers are surely inline, the harmonica rifles Moses Browning made were inline, this was about 1860, conicals were in use well before 1860, powders other than the holy black were common in Europe before 1860.
I have a side lock, the cheapest and simplest way for a flintlock owner to convert to caps, I have an underhammer, must be the simplist lock known to man, other than the trigger guard and a small spring on the trigger, there are only 2 parts, but someone designed it, did not just take the easiest way to go from flintlock to percussion.
My position is that if it does not use fixed ammo, it should be legal for a muzzle loader season, however, Texas P&W do not agree and have declared revolvers not muzzle loaders.
Oh well!;D

jh45gun
10-15-2006, 12:01 AM
Always figured that toby was opinionated and mostly for his ego and not for the industry. I have both a 54 cal ball shooter with a 1 in 72 twist Green Mountain Barrel and I have an NEF Huntsman in 50 cal fast twist 1 in 28 and a 54 underhammer of my own design that is fast twist 1 in 28. I like shooting both Conicals and Balls and yea WI is one of the states that does limit scopes to red dots or 1 x and yea I wish we could slap on any scope if we so desired but I sure would not go about it like toby did and he is pretty misinformed as the round ball is one heck of a killer in the ranges that usefull at. I am not one even with conicals that say guys should be shooting at 200 yards like Toby and some of the others are pushing. Lots of guys have problems shooting that far with a centerfire let alone a muzzle loader with a rainbow trajectory and due to bullet design you will have a rainbow trajectory. Myself I think guys like Toby and Shockley do little for muzzle loading as they keep pushing the envelope for more distance and trying to get muzzle loaders into centerfire territory which could limit our muzzle loader seasons.

9.3X62AL
10-15-2006, 12:21 AM
I enjoy front-loaders, and my preferences are PRB/sidelock/traditional. My state doesn't have a special season set aside for primitive firearms, and although that would be nice--I don't feel especially handicapped with a PRB vs. the 6.5 x 55 or 30-06. If it were my decision on a matter like this--I would require roundballs, period. THAT eliminates a lot of the argument over telescopic sights or inlines.

waksupi
10-15-2006, 03:14 AM
The way I see it, the seasons were set up by people who were shooting the traditional sidelock flint and percussion weapons. Then the marketers joined in, to try and make a fast buck. Our ML group wrote up the laws for ML use in Montana over twenty years ago, at the request from State Representaive Ethel Harding. Back then, we hadn't ever seen or heard of an inline muzzleloader, and they were never intended to be included in any hunting areas in this state.

Willbird
10-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Waksupi, the same is true of rifled shotgun barrels, tney were not in general use when most states setup the deer seasons limited to slug guns, to try to prevent people over in the next county from reciving rifle fire I suppose.(sort of misguided but they won't change their mind)

Ohio's handgun's in gun season the first few years were limited to revolvers(5" barrel or longer) in 357magnum, 41 magnum, 44 magnum as best I recall, MAYBE 45 colt. Then in a few years they changed ot to allow HANDGUNS in those calibers only(5" barrel minimum), now they have changed it to .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
so we went from revolvers in 357, 41, 44, 45 colt, to about anything now including the 1911 45 acp, and the 45/70(DNR decided it is a straight walled case) and 375 winchestor single shots, 444 marlin and a host of other rifle calibers in single shots and or huge revolvers are now good to go.

Now for muzzle loaders, they let the bow hunters hunt in this season and the gun season, PLUS give them 4 whole months to get a deer (Sept30 thru feb 4)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
muzzle loading season
Longbow, crossbow (draw weight limitations same as for archery season), muzzleloading rifle .38 caliber or larger, or muzzleloading shotgun of 10, 12, 16, 20, 28, or .410 gauge using one ball per barrel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I respect your right to an opinion, and we don't even live in the same state to our opinions are not strictly contrary to each other, if we're gonna make it fair I think we should simply open the seasons on private land to let any tag holder have the same 4 months we give the archery guys.....no special seasons for anybody. The for fun lets create a special Big Bucks award every year for traditional archery (barebow recurve with cedar shafts) and muzzle loaders (I am missing the exact cutoff or method of selection you use to determine a percussion cap IS traditional but the inline design which PRE DATES it is not)



I have not been graced with a deer yet, maybe I will do things to make it MORE of a challenge later on when I get bored with the whole deal, today I want the best gun to use in both gun season and muzzle loader season in ohio, and the TC Omega is that gun, there is no other gun that offers me the same accuracy and ability to put a projectile within 1" of point of aim at 100 yards from a clean non fouled bore, also no other gun gives me the ability to generate over 3800 foot lbs of muzzle energy if I so desire.

Bill

eljefe
10-15-2006, 11:48 AM
Inlines are technically, and only so, a muzzleloader. I am referring to, of course, the modern plastic stocked and scoped versions; not some anomaly from the 18th century. I don't have anything against them,just not my bag, baby. Also, they not a primitive weapon. The cutoff date that PA used to use is 1830, about the time that percussion caps were alleged to have been invented. Now, of course, they permit conical bullets, fiber optic sights and plastic stocks.

The technology explosion is market driven, but also is driven by game departments having to amend their rules to attempt to control a burgeoning deer populations in many eastern states. The same holds true of archery hunting; crossbows are becoming more popular every year. So...there is a combination of forces at work, driving technology.

Alleging discrimination (ADA?) is absurd. Disabled hunters are often at a disadvantage in more ways than vision. What will be next, a mandatory atv ride for the morbidly obese?

Bill, there is a division in archery; traditional vs modern. One camp wonders when the 99% letoff bow will be developed, while the other can't figure out why someone would want to hunt without sights on their bow. There are a number of hardcore traditionalists who would love nothing more than a trad only season.
Eventually, they may get it,but I doubt it will be anywhere on the east coast or southeastern US.

We are no longer hunters, we are game management tools. It could be worse, they could just do as they are doing in some of our subdivisions and hire snipers. :)

waksupi
10-15-2006, 12:39 PM
I'm against big buck contests. They used to be a fairly common thing here. Then, someone realized that slobs would shoot a buck, and if he saw something bigger, he would shoot that one, and dump the smaller one in the ditch.

versifier
10-15-2006, 12:59 PM
Where the deer populations are so large that they are causing problems, I don't see any reason not to share the woods with anyone who wants to fill the freezer. Maybe one answer is to create more mini-seasons/separate seasons and/or zones for different classes of weapons: traditional m/l (perc & flint, no optics), traditional archery (long & recurve), modern m/l, modern bow, crossbow, shotgun & revolver, rifle & hand cannon, and special permits for control of nuisance herds in more thickly settled areas. There's no reason we can't all have our cake and eat it, too. There might be some friction in areas where there aren't a lot of deer, and that sort of problems will have to be thought out and worked out in advance, but the problems are not insoluble if approached in a reasonable manner. Many states have already begun to address different facets of the problem in various ways, and more intercommunication between hunters and the wildlife departments as a whole to share ideas and experiences positive and negative can only benefit us all in the long run.

Look at the example of cooperation among departments in different states for Hunter Ed - good ideas are shared - some states contribute parts of the manuals, others produce videos on aspects of safety, survival, ethics, and conservation, booklets on wildlife identification, tracking, first aid, map & compass, field dressing game, etc. If a similar degree of motivation and cooperation can be applied to the issues of differing weapons, we could see some real progress.

But if we allow it to degenerate into a pissing contest as happens all too often, then we all lose.

JDL
10-15-2006, 01:08 PM
I seem to remember a couple of years ago, Toby was a 100% cheerleader for Savage smokless muzzleloaders. IIRC, after Savage fired him, he claimed his rifle blew up and started to ring the alarm. Makes one wonder, huh? -JDL

9.3X62AL
10-15-2006, 01:53 PM
Good point, Versifier. As long as the season choices and weapon/tackle choices are dictated by the resource management rubric--good things will happen for both the game and the hunters. That's really the bottom line here--it's all pretty much a fashion statement, when you boil it down some.

I've always liked the Michigan model--archery prior to general season start (11/15)--then 15 day general season--then blackpowder/primitive firearms, sometimes called "deep snow hunting". CA's seasons are set WAY too early, archery in mid-September here, in some places late August (!), then general season from Columbus Day to Veteran's Day (roughly). There might be a little rutting activity late in the general season, but not much.

wills
10-15-2006, 05:29 PM
I'm against big buck contests. They used to be a fairly common thing here. Then, someone realized that slobs would shoot a buck, and if he saw something bigger, he would shoot that one, and dump the smaller one in the ditch.

It can bring a lot of business into rural areas, not that it is good, but economic reality.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=muy+grande+contest&btnG=Search

jh45gun
10-15-2006, 11:04 PM
I seem to remember a couple of years ago, Toby was a 100% cheerleader for Savage smokless muzzleloaders. IIRC, after Savage fired him, he claimed his rifle blew up and started to ring the alarm. Makes one wonder, huh? -JDL


Was always against this gun still am. If your going to use copper bullets and a primer ignition and smokeless powder then you pretty much have a centerfire with out the case. At least with the other muzzle loaders the powder still keeps it some what primitive due to how it acts and performs.

Buckshot
10-16-2006, 01:02 PM
..............Back 30 - 40 years ago when a few states began to listen to the hunters wanting a primitive season, ie: muzzle loaders using BP I'm pretty sure we can all see what they pictured in their minds, right? The F&G folks all envisioned a bunch of Fess Parkers out in their buckskins skulking through the woods with thier Kentucky's (er. Pennsylvania type rifles). After all that IS the idea most folks have in their heads about muzzle loaders.

So as the Primitive/muzzle loader season idea spread across the country it begat a whole industry catering to just that. Before it had been Civil or Revolutionary war re-enactors or the early rondyvooers :-). It became bigger and it seemed every retailer of any size, discount houses and even tire stores were carrying Hawken rifle kits. I'll bet there's a half a million unfinished one stuck back someplace in the garage or a closet.

But then like any other sport you get newer, better, faster, easier, more powerfull tools as people seek an 'edge'. They see how close they can skirt the rules until someone hollers, FOUL!

I personally don't care for the modern inlines. Just like I don't care for plastic stocks and I only have 1 stainless gun and that's a Vaquero I bought because it was all steel and looked like nickle plating. There are colors I don't like, cars I don't care for, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I also remember our old rangemaster ******** about all the weekend shooters coming out with thier SKS's.

However I'll also say that those cheap SKS's, and the inline muzzle loaders probably got a lot of people out shooting who otherwise might not have. And to me, the more shooters there are, the better off we ALL are, as they're interests may have broadened. So I can appreciate the fact that the cheap inlines (and not so cheap ones) got a lot of people out who maybe did not care for the more traditional rifles. It sure sparked an industry, didn't it?

However it all comes back to the beginning. Who were the folks agitating for MLer only seasons and what did they carry into the woods when they got those seasons? To be honest there may have been more then a few early primitive hunters who latched on to the idea of the inlines and now use them exclusively. But I'll also bet that the majority of that number were people who really didn't care about the truth of the reason for the primitive season. It was just another way to extend hunting.

The real reason for a muzzle loading season was so the modern day hunter could have a season set aside so they really could get out there in their buckskins or breeches and linsey woolsey shirts with a rifle or smoothbore that took black powder and a patched round ball, and that was made of wood and steel. And the rifle would have been recognizeable to their great, great, great grandfathers.

So as I said, I personally have no issue with the MODERN inline as the concept is not new. What, or rather who I have a problem with are those who push, and push and push beyond the original intent for the whole thing to begin with.

Rant off and flame suit on :-)

................Buckshot

Old Ironsights
10-16-2006, 01:56 PM
Got no problems with the guns. Got big problems with Toby and his threats about demanding a 100yd/1000ftlb regulation.

First of all, beyond its general absurdity, it would be utterly unenforcable.

Secondly, when Toby was writing for one rag or another in the 80s, he was all about round balls. Turns out he's all about whoever is sponsoring him.

AFAIC any non-nitro powder muzzlestuffer should be OK in a seperate season - but any optic over 2x should not be. IMO ifyou want to use a long-flat shooting whatever that needs magnified optics to shoot, then that should be done in Gun season.

I always thought muzzstuffing was all about getting up close and personal, like Bows, only with boom.

What's the point of sneaking up on somthing when Joe Sniper pops it from 250+?

waksupi
10-16-2006, 08:49 PM
In the back of my mind, I seem to recall a story about him many years ago. I believe he shot an elk in Wyoming, and then proceeded to have his picture taken with several different ML rifles, from different manufacturers. He then tried to sel lthe story, to each of the companies. Don't recall if he was successful. I do recall, that once the pictures were taken, he didn't want the elk. This story came from a pretty reliable ML writer.

Mike Nesbitt
10-16-2006, 10:27 PM
I've heard some of those stories but I'll save them for around the campfire. Shoot sharp, Mike

jh45gun
10-17-2006, 12:11 AM
I would be perfectly happy if we could have a 2 x scope instead of our regs now that we have to have 1x. Those 1x scopes get pretty pricey for what you get. I would rather use a cheap red dot then which I do. Or a Peep sight which I do too. :) Yea I know that the open sights are more traditional, But my eyes just do not work as well as they used to Like most of us when we get a bit older. I wish some one would make a cheaper "period" scope that the average guy could afford too instead of paying 500 + for most of them.

Heyboy
10-19-2019, 10:46 PM
In PA we have an early season for modern (cap locks or in lines) where only doe can be taken and we have a flintlock season. Starts the day after Christmas.

smithnframe
10-20-2019, 06:42 AM
Who is Toby Bridges?

Hickory
10-20-2019, 07:18 AM
Who is Toby Bridges?

Someone not important enough to warrant any serious concern.

Maven
10-20-2019, 09:29 AM
https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/497598.Toby_Bridges

charlie b
10-20-2019, 10:10 PM
Who is Toby Bridges?

That was going to be my question. Never heard of him.


Someone not important enough to warrant any serious concern.

And that was my second thought :)


https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/497598.Toby_Bridges

Ok, so that confirms it. Someone out to beat their own drum.

As far as hunting seasons, I used to hunt out here during ML season just to stay away from all the crazies during the regular gun seasons. Then the inlines came in and all the idiots bought one. Now ML season is just as crowded and filled with crazies as the gun seasons. Bow season did the same with the new compounds, sights and mechanical releases. They might as well just make a bunch of different gun seasons these days. If they want to limit the number of animals harvested then use the draw system.

All this is one of the major reasons I stopped hunting.

dondiego
10-21-2019, 11:12 AM
That was going to be my question. Never heard of him.



And that was my second thought :)



Ok, so that confirms it. Someone out to beat their own drum.

As far as hunting seasons, I used to hunt out here during ML season just to stay away from all the crazies during the regular gun seasons. Then the inlines came in and all the idiots bought one. Now ML season is just as crowded and filled with crazies as the gun seasons. Bow season did the same with the new compounds, sights and mechanical releases. They might as well just make a bunch of different gun seasons these days. If they want to limit the number of animals harvested then use the draw system.

All this is one of the major reasons I stopped hunting.

The whole point is to INCREASE the number of animals harvested. At least in this state. The auto insurance companies in Michigan are demanding it. There were over 50,000 deer car accidents reported in 2017. Many are never reported.

Fly
10-21-2019, 12:55 PM
At 74 years of age I have many years of hunting under my belt. I got into Muzzle loaders in the 1970s when there was no inlines.
Back then we hunted, no deer feeders, cameras & so on. It was as our fathers & before did. Hunting today I don't consider real hunting
in the primitive hunting season. Funny I hunted with my flintlock even in regular gun season. That's just me. I,m waiting for the new fangled
so called hunter to be calling for night vision. Have a family that lives down the road that shoots deer off there back porch under there deer feeder
in the back yard. I could do the same but refuse to. To each there on, as what you want to call it, I call it harvesting. Just as you would cattle. JMOHOP.

Fly

Walks
10-21-2019, 02:13 PM
Gave My Dad one of his early books shortly before He passed, He didn't have anything to say, that was worthwhile. So I never bought another of his books.
Not surprised to hear the controversy. Didn't care for his mag articles either.

Just a guy wanting to make a buck anyway he can. No pun intended.

charlie b
10-21-2019, 03:17 PM
The whole point is to INCREASE the number of animals harvested. At least in this state. The auto insurance companies in Michigan are demanding it. There were over 50,000 deer car accidents reported in 2017. Many are never reported.

Those states should not bother with bow or ML hunts at all. Just open up more gun seasons. I assume they already allow more that one deer harvested per hunter as well. If not then they are just being stupid.

FWIW, my father-in-law grew up in South Haven. He remembers as a kid the bathroom mirror being shot out by a hunter who missed the cow (milk cow) he was shooting at (cause he thought it was a deer) :)

Fly
10-21-2019, 07:11 PM
Charlie I think he knew it was a cow. A rancher by me has had more than one of his heard shot. He caught to young men cutting the hine quarter off
it. He beat one of them to a inch of his life, the other took off.

Fly

Texas by God
10-21-2019, 07:36 PM
Texas should have a muzzleloading deer season. The last three weeks of January sounds good. Another hunters use of a scoped inline plastic sabot launcher doesn't bother me but I would go traditional with PRB and irons. As it is now, sometimes I keep my .54 Plains pistol with me during gun season for those close range encounters. I killed a nice buck at 44 feet a few years back with it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

brewer12345
10-21-2019, 08:16 PM
I started with muzzleloaders because there is less competition for tags in the draw. Now that I have had lots of fun playing with them and harvested a doe with round ball in a cap lock, I could see getting a flinter and going ever more old school for deer. It's too much fun.

My state allows in lines, but no sabots or scopes. The latter will eventually be an issue for me, but until then I think it means that the in line hunters basically have no real advantage over side lock hunters.

megasupermagnum
10-21-2019, 08:50 PM
I started with muzzleloaders because there is less competition for tags in the draw. Now that I have had lots of fun playing with them and harvested a doe with round ball in a cap lock, I could see getting a flinter and going ever more old school for deer. It's too much fun.

My state allows in lines, but no sabots or scopes. The latter will eventually be an issue for me, but until then I think it means that the in line hunters basically have no real advantage over side lock hunters.

I have no idea who Toby Bridges is, and that sounds like a good thing.

As for the advantage. You could always put a scope on your side lock. I've heard the argument so many times, but from my experience there is no huge advantage to an inline design verses a side lock percussion. The only "advantage" would be the use of pelletized powder, which is inferior to loose powder anyway. With a 209 primer, and only some breech plug designs, you can use Blackhorn 209 powder which is very close to a true smokeless powder.

As for accuracy, I see guys with sidelocks who regularly outshoot the average inline shooter. The accuracy is in the barrel, not the ignition (to a certain extent). There's nothing stopping you from putting a fast twist barrel on a sidelock and using sabots too. There's nothing stopping you from using conicals and outshooting them!

Flintlocks are another animal that I'm only beginning to experiment with.

There is no clear distinction between ignition types, but the match lock ruled for about 200 years. Then things got fuzzy until the flintlock came into it's main form. Depending on if you consider any lock that used a flint, a flintlock, the flintlock was used for 300-400 years! Then about 1830 the percussion cap came, and in a measly 50ish years was taken over by primers. Rimfire, then centerfire. I was just reading about the 44 Russian, the first cartridge in America to use a centerfire primer, in a brass case, with a bullet inside the case (not heeled). This was in 1870, so the centerfire primer has now been the primary ignition for firearms for just about 150 years. While we know the sidelock percussion cap was always more popular, it was an easier step after building flintlock rifles for so long. Still, inline ignition muzzleloaders existed as long as percussion caps have. Also, where does the underhammer fall in all this? Pun intended.

What makes the percussion cap so special? What about inline designs that use percussion caps like my TC scout pistol, or Knight TK2000 (12 gauge)?

This is nothing against you brewer, I just think its odd that percussion caps existed alongside sidelock, inline, and under hammer designs. Who knows what else, there were all kinds of funky designs in the 1800's. Yet only the popular sidelock is considered traditional, even with a laughably short lifespan.

Bazoo
10-21-2019, 09:32 PM
I don't have any idea who Toby Bridges is.

brewer12345
10-21-2019, 09:41 PM
This is nothing against you brewer, I just think its odd that percussion caps existed alongside sidelock, inline, and under hammer designs. Who knows what else, there were all kinds of funky designs in the 1800's. Yet only the popular sidelock is considered traditional, even with a laughably short lifespan.

No worries. All of these historical designs are just more things to fool with, as far as I am concerned.

The stainless steel, plastic stocked, percussion cap .54 I hunted with this year is almost as far from a traditional muzzleloader as an inline is. Machts nicht. It killed the doe just fine, introduced me to the pleasure of a round ball hunt, and has me interested in a flinter.

megasupermagnum
10-21-2019, 10:25 PM
No worries. All of these historical designs are just more things to fool with, as far as I am concerned.

The stainless steel, plastic stocked, percussion cap .54 I hunted with this year is almost as far from a traditional muzzleloader as an inline is. Machts nicht. It killed the doe just fine, introduced me to the pleasure of a round ball hunt, and has me interested in a flinter.

Same with me, I just bought my first flintlock. It's all about traditional hunting and shooting, even if the rifle is not completely of a specific traditional design in all aspects. The only true hawken rifles were the originals. Every imitation since had some difference. They are all muzzleloading arms, every component 100% under the control of the shooter, and throw smoke, flame, and lead out the end with a low pitched boom. Even the plastic stocked, inline ignition, removable breech plug, fast twist barrel designs.

I also forgot another peculiarity with muzzleloaders, rifle scopes. Again, there are a number who claim to be the first, but many sources state 1835 for the rifle scope being invented. Lets not forget the telescope itself dates back to 1608. So the rifle scope is not traditional, but the percussion cap, also first appearing in the 1830's is?

brewer12345
10-21-2019, 10:49 PM
Funny you mentioned the low pitched boom. The property I was hunting is 3 miles of river bottom mostly used by duck hunters. I could easily tell the difference between a duck hunter shooting with a 12 gauge and a fellow muzzleloader hunter firing his rifle.

megasupermagnum
10-21-2019, 11:09 PM
Funny you mentioned the low pitched boom. The property I was hunting is 3 miles of river bottom mostly used by duck hunters. I could easily tell the difference between a duck hunter shooting with a 12 gauge and a fellow muzzleloader hunter firing his rifle.

Yes, I love it. It's like putting a period on the end of a hunt. BOOM, then all smiles.

indian joe
10-22-2019, 02:52 AM
Pedersoli gets an attaboy from me.

from me too!!!

Fly
10-23-2019, 06:44 PM
I hope the young hunter of today carry on traditional hunting when we a dead & gone.

Fly

fifty four
10-24-2019, 01:23 PM
I don't have any idea who Toby Bridges is.

He was some guy that Pedersoli booted 13 years ago.

longbow
10-24-2019, 07:57 PM
I once read a lengthy article by Toby Bridges comparing a traditional patched ball gun with a gun shooting conicals and his conclusion was that round ball guns are inferior weapons and barely adequate for hunting big game. Round ball ballistic inefficiency, shedding velocity, low energey... all that stuff. He had nothing good to say about traditional muzzleloaders at all.

Same argument could be used for any gun leading to the fact that unless you are using the biggest most powerful gun shooting the most ballistically efficient bullets available and all topped with the biggest scope made you shouldn't be hunting.

I mean really is a .30-30 adequate to hunt deer when .308 is available? Is a .308 adequate when a .30-06 is available? And wait what about the .300 Winchester? On that basis every hunter should be carrying a gun loaded with .50 BMG!

What happened to hunting within the limits of the weapon? Better to shoot a deer at 50 yards with an open sighted round ball gun that at 500 or 600 yards with a scoped 7mm mag. in my opinion.

Many of the modern hunters I know couldn't hit a deer at 200 yards with a scoped 7mm much less at 500 yards so where does that leave us?

And wait... bowhunting should be totally banned because how on earth could a pointy stick with almost no energy possible kill an animal?

Yeah, I know preaching to the converted here but that is the kind of argument Mr. Bridges was using. If it wasn't his way you shouldn't be doing it.

Longbow

megasupermagnum
10-24-2019, 10:33 PM
I once read a lengthy article by Toby Bridges comparing a traditional patched ball gun with a gun shooting conicals and his conclusion was that round ball guns are inferior weapons and barely adequate for hunting big game. Round ball ballistic inefficiency, shedding velocity, low energey... all that stuff. He had nothing good to say about traditional muzzleloaders at all.

Same argument could be used for any gun leading to the fact that unless you are using the biggest most powerful gun shooting the most ballistically efficient bullets available and all topped with the biggest scope made you shouldn't be hunting.

I mean really is a .30-30 adequate to hunt deer when .308 is available? Is a .308 adequate when a .30-06 is available? And wait what about the .300 Winchester? On that basis every hunter should be carrying a gun loaded with .50 BMG!

What happened to hunting within the limits of the weapon? Better to shoot a deer at 50 yards with an open sighted round ball gun that at 500 or 600 yards with a scoped 7mm mag. in my opinion.

Many of the modern hunters I know couldn't hit a deer at 200 yards with a scoped 7mm much less at 500 yards so where does that leave us?

And wait... bowhunting should be totally banned because how on earth could a pointy stick with almost no energy possible kill an animal?

Yeah, I know preaching to the converted here but that is the kind of argument Mr. Bridges was using. If it wasn't his way you shouldn't be doing it.

Longbow

There are a whole pile of modern bowhunters that hate traditional muzzleloaders. I don't know what it is in their head that a stick, string, and arrow is a perfectly lethal combo, but a round ball gets a "we have enough wounded deer". Don't even get them started on flintlocks. It's obviously not all bow hunters, but far too common for comfort. I've never met one who wasn't shooting a compound with fancy sights, and states draw weight even without asking though.

Fly
10-25-2019, 02:00 PM
There are a whole pile of modern bowhunters that hate traditional muzzleloaders. I don't know what it is in their head that a stick, string, and arrow is a perfectly lethal combo, but a round ball gets a "we have enough wounded deer". Don't even get them started on flintlocks. It's obviously not all bow hunters, but far too common for comfort. I've never met one who wasn't shooting a compound with fancy sights, and states draw weight even without asking though.

At least most our kills are humane. How many deer bow shot, are never found? A buddy of mine shot a deer in gun season with a arrow sticking threw
it,s neck. No telling how long it had been since it was shot?

Fly

longbow
10-25-2019, 08:17 PM
I have nothing against bowhunting but same rules apply ~ you have to hunt within the limits of the weapon you are using and of course your own limits/abilities!

I took the International Bowhunter Education program a few years ago and the instructor stressed that no-one, no matter how good a shot they are and how powerful a bow they are using, should be shooting at an animal at more than 40 meters. I wonder how many modern bowhunters with compounds, trigger releases, sights, stabilizers and whatever else they can screw onto a bow follow that rule? Not many I suspect from seeing target placement at 3D shoots!

For the record I shoot a yew stick or other wood bow. I like to keep things simple and work within the limits... both the equipment's limits and mine!

Longbow

longcruise
10-25-2019, 09:16 PM
Yeah, I know preaching to the converted here but that is the kind of argument Mr. Bridges was using. If it wasn't his way you shouldn't be doing it.

Longbow

Bridges was a paid sponsor for several ml companies. I think he was with savage and got wind that they were going to dump him or maybe already had dumped him and somehow he managed to blow up one of those Savage rifles that used modern powder. Quite a few people including the Savage folks thought he had done it on purpose. My memory is hazy but I did find this https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/70287-toby-bridges-savage-part-ways.html

I don't know if his parting with pedersoli came before or after the incident. I got somewhat acquainted with Dick Trenk who was the Pedersoli North American rep and he was a super straight guy. Nothing like Bridges. Pedersoli went out of their way to associate with top notch people and Bridges probably didn't fit the bill! Trenk has passed away some five or so years ago.

megasupermagnum
10-25-2019, 09:21 PM
Well I'd sure how a guy who calls himself longbow has nothing against bowhunting.:kidding:

I don't have anything against bowhunting either, I just never enjoyed shooting bow all that much. I've toyed with the idea of bowhunting to get the longer season, but given the choice, I much rather prefer shooting a firearm. I go in cycles. Mostly shotgun, muzzleloader, or handgun. I never did find rifles that much fun. Now if we got expanded to a 3 deer limit, I would take a hard look at it. Especially if I got the Bear takedown recurve.

longbow
10-26-2019, 11:38 AM
I am a traditionalist at heart and like making and shooting my wood bows and arrows but I also wouldn't mind getting an Excalibur crossbow which is far from traditional. I've always liked traditional styled muzzloaders too but I only have one right now as there is little muzzleloader shooting locally. I've also been fascinated (more like obsessed) with shotgun slugs for decades as well. Maybe some of the shotgun slug fascination is carryover from large bore muzzleloaders (I do like big 'ol round balls!).

None of the above fall into Mr. Bridges area of approval at all! Too bad! Each within its practical limits is quite capable of harvesting big game animals and all are fun to shoot. None are capable of 500 yard shots at big game animals (well, some muzzleloaders are with conicals) but I can live with that and don't begrudge those that want to use something different unlike MR. Bridges who has his opinion and agenda and anything different is just not acceptable it seems.

Longbow

trebor44
11-02-2019, 07:12 PM
Nothing to add that hasn't already been said. I like Pedersoli products, may not be the cheapest but they do have quality. If you never have been to their site (https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/, go! There is a lot of info to peruse. Make sure you select the Union Jack for English. I was amazed at the BP tradition in Europe and how current it is.

longcruise
11-04-2019, 05:47 PM
I started with muzzleloaders because there is less competition for tags in the draw. Now that I have had lots of fun playing with them and harvested a doe with round ball in a cap lock, I could see getting a flinter and going ever more old school for deer. It's too much fun.

My state allows in lines, but no sabots or scopes. The latter will eventually be an issue for me, but until then I think it means that the in line hunters basically have no real advantage over side lock hunters.

Hey Brewer, I'm thinking about taking the rear sight off one of my guns and practicing shooting with just a basic and low front sight. With practice it should be pretty effective at least out to 50 yards.

varsity07840
11-04-2019, 07:25 PM
I remember back in the '80s when Bridges started writing articles about shooting antelope with his TC Hawken with a Green Mountain barrel and long eye relief scope. His advocacy of the scope caught a lot of flack. When Dixie Gunworks' Black Powder Annual put him on the cover of an issue with that rife, they airbrushed the scope out of the photo.

jjarrell
11-05-2019, 07:05 PM
Bridges was a paid sponsor for several ml companies. I think he was with savage and got wind that they were going to dump him or maybe already had dumped him and somehow he managed to blow up one of those Savage rifles that used modern powder. Quite a few people including the Savage folks thought he had done it on purpose. My memory is hazy but I did find this https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/70287-toby-bridges-savage-part-ways.html

I don't know if his parting with pedersoli came before or after the incident. I got somewhat acquainted with Dick Trenk who was the Pedersoli North American rep and he was a super straight guy. Nothing like Bridges. Pedersoli went out of their way to associate with top notch people and Bridges probably didn't fit the bill! Trenk has passed away some five or so years ago.

This ain’t the first time Ol’ Tobe has got his a$$ in a tight spot. Along with the Savage “accident”, he got in trouble with DNR for killing wolves a few years back as well. https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/local/2014/09/19/missoula-man-runs-wolves-brags-facebook/15910397/

hylander
11-10-2019, 11:37 PM
Good for Pedersoli.
I am in total agreement.
Most hunters (not all) that hunt with inlines do so only to take advantage of
getting another season. They do not care for the Muzzleoading sport or muzzleloading in general, just getting that extra hunt.

Bazoo
11-11-2019, 02:35 AM
He was some guy that Pedersoli booted 13 years ago.
Thanks for the catch up.

Bazoo
11-11-2019, 02:41 AM
I prefer vintage "modern" gun personally, but I like traditional muzzleloader also. I don't down someone for using an inline but I agree that most do it for the extended season. I am not big on bow hunting but I do respect the effort and skill required. Any of it is a whole heap better than setting on the couch playing video games.