Hard Cast Balls For Muzzleloading?

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I'm wondering if I'm the only one who does this.

I started out casting pure lead balls for muzzleloaders. I then decided to see what would happen if I added a "bit" of Linotype.

Got them hard enough that I can no longer scratch them with my thumbnail.

Now, thing is, these things are out shooting, in two guns, my patched round balls made from pure lead. Now, before anyone points out that my technique may be flawed, please also know that I shot these against Hornady swaged balls as well.

They just seem to work better regardless of patch thickness or powder load.

Now I'm casting from 10:1 just for giggles. We'll see what they do tomorrow as I have a .45 Kentucky that I need to regulate.

I thought it was mentioned on this site that some folks are hard casting balls, and I know a company (may be Hornady, in fact) is making saboted hard cast lead round ball.

Anyone else do this?

Thanks,

Josh

[Alan]

Yep, you have to drop down a bit in ball diameter sometimes, since they will cast a scootch larger than pure lead, but it was a VERY common practice w/ dangerous game rifles in the 19th century. Penetration on game goes way up when the ball doesn't flatten out on impact.

[mooman76]

I never went that hard but I didn't have soft lead when I first started so I used what I had. Range & or WWs. I have soft lead now but I never noticed a difference.

[waksupi]

I've been shooting wheel weight round balls for close to 40 years, works for me. I like full penetration when hunting.

[Maven]

Waksupi convinced me to try RB's cast from WW's + 1% Sn in my muzzleloaders. The results were indistinguishable from those using cast (and weighed) RB's or Hornady swaged RB's. Also, the slightly larger diameter and lighter weight make for a better bore seal and [slightly] higher velocity. Thus far, the only ML I own that doesn't like the WW RB's is my .62cal. trade gun, but it's a bit fussy about ball diameter and patch thickness anyway. In short, if you have more hard alloy than pure Pb as I do, use it to make RB's. I think you'll also be pleasantly surprised by how well they shoot.

[Blammer]

I use WW alloy in my RB muzzleloaders. Work just fine, and the doe I shot this year is just as dead with the WW RB. :)

I've never tried to make a RB really hard to try and shoot, but if it works, use it. Just don't patch a steel ball bearing and shoot it at a hard surface.... It just may kill YOU.

[smoked turkey]

I've had problems with maxis cast from harder alloy. However wheel weight alloy is my normal material for round ball. I have never had a problem with them. I believe any boolit that contacts the bore should be soft, so I stick with soft lead for those. Otherwise if the boolit is encased in a plastic sabot or cloth patch, a harder alloy is ok. My 2 cents for what its worth.

[corey012778]

this is some great info,

planning on using ww rb in my 54 cal for late ML season, it seems to like them,

[missionary5155]

Good morning
As far as I read the "Hardened Boolits" of the ivory hunters was a 20-1 mix and they prefered 8 bore and larger.
I have used WW RB in my ML´s and they shoot just fine. .57 and above make big enough holes I would not hesitate to pop corn crunchers with them.
I can say WW and harder is the prefered RB to use on large crocadiles (4 meters+) when wanting to smash through the neck armor at close range. Actually I would rather have .685 ball bearing loaded for that chore.

[GoexBlackhorn]

Time to re-open this thread. I desire some hard roundballs. Anyone got any hard cast wheel-weight balls around .490 for sale? Harder than what comes from Hornady, Dixie or Speer.

You can PM me, if you would like.

[Omnivore]

This subject comes up several times per year, or so it seems to me, on the ML forums. All I can say is that my son and I have killed well over a dozen deer with 50 cal, pure lead RB, using heavy charges of black powder, and unless the ball hits heavy bone we've never observed significant deformation.
Several of our deer have fallen to shoulder-thru-shoulder shots and we still get pass-through most of the time.

If all you have is WW or some other alloy, then by all accounts it will work fine, but I see no very good reason to go out of your way for harder, lighter RB (unless you're hunting elephant, or etc., apparently, but in that case a lead Maxi Ball or some such would probably do much better - you will get more KE using a heavier projectile, and HUGE increase in sectional density).

[aap2]

IMHO the main thing that I watch for when casting muzzleloader round ball is the final as-cast diameter that will vary slightly with the alloy used. I'm no expert on hunting but I doubt that hardness in a roundball makes much difference as long as your rifle happens to shoot well with whatever alloy you cast with (it made no difference on the PA whitetail deer that I shot a long time ago....roundball is a poor choice IMHO for big game anyway; I now use conical boolits). As stated in the 1968 Dixie Gun Works catalog by Turner Kirkland: " use pure soft lead instead of "hard lead" for casting roundball" and then went on to explain the difference between "hard" and "soft" lead roundball. The last comment was: "If you don't know what kind of lead you have, use it anyway". It worked for me.

[GoexBlackhorn]

I am hunting Michigan whitetails. That's what I'll be using the hard roundball on.

I found a source today. Just waiting to hear from him via a PM. Supposedly willing to part with a package of 100. That's perfect and I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve right now. I've never had a pass-thru using .490 Hornady roundballs on a couple deer.

I want a pass-thru next time. Hopefully these hardcast balls will print approx the same 75 yard holes as my Hornadys.

[rodwha]

From the plethora of experiences with a patched ball (generally .50 and .54 cal) they'll produce a complete pass through of the shoulders from about 75-125 yds without an issue. Under 75 yds the ball is often found just under the hide expanded.

Though most prefer a larger ball, some use a .50 cal for elk keeping the range under 75 yds. I figured if I ever got the chance for elk I'd load a 320 grn REAL myself, but anything mule deer sized and under I wouldn't hesitate to use a patched ball.

[rodwha]

I am hunting Michigan whitetails. That's what I'll be using the hard roundball on.

I found a source today. Just waiting to hear from him via a PM. Supposedly willing to part with a package of 100. That's perfect and I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve right now. I've never had a pass-thru using .490 Hornady roundballs on a couple deer.

I want a pass-thru next time. Hopefully these hardcast balls will print approx the same 75 yard holes as my Hornadys.

What is your load? And what kind of penetration are you getting with what kind of angle? What exactly is it you dislike about the performance?

[Omnivore]

The fifty caliber round ball from a rifle can easily reach a thousand foot pounds muzzle energy. If you're not killing a deer efficiently with it, it's you, not the load.

Several of our pass-throughs on Northwest white tail deer were shots taken at 40 yards and less, down to about fifteen yards. I know that because those were all taken from the tree stand, where I've lasered the area and the longest possible shot is about 40 yards. Only once in those distances did a pure lead fifty cal RB fail to pass through, and that particular ball blew the heart completely apart; no chambers intact. None of the balls deformed significantly at those distances, and that's well into super sonic on impact.

Others have reported pancaked ball, but we keep having this same experience. Only when heavy bone is struck, such as the ball joint of a shoulder, or the spine, have I observed the massive deformation others speak of. That's still a very dead deer though, so what's the problem?

On an elk I'd want an ideal target presentation, and preferably at fifty yards or less, and then I'd not hesitate to use fifty cal RB. I have every confidence it'd pass through unless it hit the actual shoulder joints, meaning the heaviest bone there. Most people reporting such things fail to be specific on exactly what was hit though, and such reports are basically worthless. You can in theory "shoot through both shoulders" (meaning the picnic roasts), maybe wreck the heart, and not hit any real bone at all (just the thin scapulae). The heart-lung cavity is mostly like shooting through sponge cake otherwise-- Full penetration does not require much energy. A conical would be preferable on elk though, just in case.

On deer, 25 inches of penetration, measured by sliding my ram rod through the wound, was achieved in a quartering away shot at 85 yards in the 2010 season. As for bone, only ribs were hit in that case. That ball was recovered under the hide off the far shoulder. I still have that ball, and I will fire it again one day, because it is near pristine. Maybe I'll kill a second deer with that same ball. It is pure lead, that is unless Speer was selling tin-lead alloy round ball, and not telling us about it, about ten years ago.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is a big difference in the bones of deer, and those of larger animals. Even with the latter, penetration in the chest cavity depends very little on the alloy used. I can imagine hard alloy improving accuracy in most circumstances, and being unlikely ever to worsen it. I think the fit would have to be exactly right for a patched ball which doesn't have the patch indented into it by the rifling, as its twist would then depend on friction.

African hunters of long ago sometimes hardened bullets with mercury, a very dangerous practice - not just a little, but very - no longer available to most of us. It had the advantage that it increased the weight of the bullet rather than slightly reducing it.

[GoexBlackhorn]

From the plethora of experiences with a patched ball (generally .50 and .54 cal) they'll produce a complete pass through of the shoulders from about 75-125 yds without an issue. Under 75 yds the ball is often found just under the hide expanded.

Though most prefer a larger ball, some use a .50 cal for elk keeping the range under 75 yds. I figured if I ever got the chance for elk I'd load a 320 grn REAL myself, but anything mule deer sized and under I wouldn't hesitate to use a patched ball.


I have harvested two deer in the past with a roundball. Neither were pass-thrus.

I shoot off-hand / free-style 100% of the time and don't use a scope. I am 65 years old and my nerves aren't steel anymore, but more like soft lead. I aim for double lungs whenever I can. But sometimes I hit nearby bone instead. Could be ribs, leg, or spine I hit.
My breathing is fine, so I can still hold my breath at the time of ignition. So if you feel pass-thrus should be more easy for me, then perhaps they should. Please mention that to my body someday...... lol.

My shots, angles...etc... change all the time. We hunt in 4-5 different locations. I am using 80gr Goex FFF with .490 Hornady Ball and prelubed 020 oiled, cotton patch from Track Of The Wolf. My gun is a 32" barrel /1:66 twist. Those deer I harvested were from years I used prelubed .018 bore-buttered-lubed, pillow-ticking patch.

I have swore-off bore butter / Wonderlube. Want my remaining buttered stuff?

[mooman76]

Just curious about a couple things. 1st why have you swore off BB? I admit it's not the best lube out but it does work. I perfer good ol spit patch myself but it dries out for hunting so I use BB out of convienance. The other question is why you think you need pass through for a deer? Have you had trouble taking down deer? Not trying to knock you, just wondering and I feel there is nothing wrong with using a harder lead ball for hunting.

[Good Cheer]

The .69 caliber minie barrels have three grooves the same width as the lands.
At pi x diameter that's a lot of patch cloth to get bunched up, hexagonal pattern imposed on a right angled warp and woof. And soft round balls can be deformed to favor one of the wide grooves over staying centered. I've had hard ball shoot better. Whether or not it even knew the rifling was there is another head scratcher.
I haven't discovered whether this could be the case with .58 barrels.

[Edward]

Just curious about a couple things. 1st why have you swore off BB? I admit it's not the best lube out but it does work. I perfer good ol spit patch myself but it dries out for hunting so I use BB out of convienance. The other question is why you think you need pass through for a deer? Have you had trouble taking down deer? Not trying to knock you, just wondering and I feel there is nothing wrong with using a harder lead ball for hunting.Any one trackin a deer (46 yrs with bow and still doing it)knows 2 holes leaking is better ! My 1st .54 cal prb deer this yr was 83 yds (ranged )and easy feeding quartering away stationary shot
,ran into woods across 4inchs of snow no blood maybe 90 yds.Ball under hide off side and now I know why

[725]

I look for the double lung & pass through, too. Put's em down fast.

[GoexBlackhorn]

Just curious about a couple things. 1st why have you swore off BB? I admit it's not the best lube out but it does work. I perfer good ol spit patch myself but it dries out for hunting so I use BB out of convienance. The other question is why you think you need pass through for a deer? Have you had trouble taking down deer? Not trying to knock you, just wondering and I feel there is nothing wrong with using a harder lead ball for hunting.

ANSWER #1) I wanted a lube that would serve a double purpose here in very humid, Upper Midwest / Great Lakes region of tall, shaded forests. I wanted a lube that had rust protection built in it. I considered making my own, by using a 50-50 mix of Ballistol and distilled water. But I decided to try the Track of the Wolf patches first, which I think have One Shot lubricant as the oil..... not sure about that.

ANSWER #2) I love my Traditions Shenandoah brassy longrifle, despite that gosh-awful two pinned full-stock. I have never gotten a pass-thru shooting roundballs and I don't know how many more years I'll be able to hunt (or) how much longer I'm going to live.

I want a roundball pass-thru in 2017. I will even send a wish-list letter to Santa in the North Pole, one month prior to Deer Hunting Opening Day.

BTW... my source has acknowledged sending me 100 "little stiffer" balls in the next week or two. My prayer has been answered and thanks to everyone who replied inside this thread.
.................................................. .Cheers! :drinks:

[ogre]

I find "pure" lead relatively more of a pain to get a hold of compared to the abundance of harder lead available and thus only use it in my cap and ball pistols to save wear on the rammer system. I mostly shoot a 62 caliber smooth rifle and an 11 gage fowling piece anymore. Roundball pass through with these weapons has, so far, been 100%.

[fiberoptik]

Remember if you use ww rb's they'll "run over" your game! Yuk yuk yuk!
I used rb in my CVA inline with 2 pyro pellets from tree stand on big granny doe under tree. Angle shot, no bone hit. Flattened both doe & rb. Found it near liver.


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[KCSO]

Works well on Bison! I prefer soft lead for a couple of my guns but it depends on how the gun shoots.

[Bulliwig]

I cast roundballs for my .75 caliber Brown Bess musket, but only because they are really expensive and hard to come by.
They cost 0,50 Euro per ball if you can get them. So I cast my own out of a .715 Lyman mould. I cast them of scrap lead, just because that scrap is much easier to get. It has a Brinell hardness of 8 and I don't care about that in a musket.

[Josh Smith]

Time to re-open this thread. I desire some hard roundballs. Anyone got any hard cast wheel-weight balls around .490 for sale? Harder than what comes from Hornady, Dixie or Speer.

You can PM me, if you would like.

I just saw you resurrected this thread. Didn't see it before. Do suggestions subscriptions expire?

Looks like you found some. I'd have made you some in exchange for lead. I need to cast more for myself. Might do a pictorial when I do.

Regards,

Josh