Lubed patched bullets

[Don McDowell]

Messing with the paper patch mould. Set it down to an inch and a tenth as specified by the Sharps catalog. Come up with a bullet right on 400 gs from 20-1 might need to let it out a touch to make the 420.
But anyways I took 10 of those bullets patched them with the paper mill 9lb. and then proceeded to dip them in a pan of one of Bullshops new recipes.. I should of let them set a bit longer before running them thru the lee size die. Anyway this morning I pulled the bullets out of 10 of my offhand loads and seated those lubed patched bullets in the case.
Firing at the 270 yd gong shown some accuracy promise, but I think I had two things working against me. The cases were of course expanded to hold the .457 greasers, and if I think letting those patched bullets cure a bit longer may have been helpful.
I can also forsee a problem keeping those from getting dirt contaminated, altho maybe a longer cure would prevent that somewhat.
But in the end I was able to load and fire all 10 rounds with no tubing or wiping. This could possibly be the trick to shooting an entire buffalo gong match with all patched bullets.
Definetly think some more piddledinking with this is in order.

[Bullshop]

piddledinking?
That's got to be my new word for the day.
I kind of do what your doing with my PP boolits. I roll on the patch dry and then run them through the lube sizer at the desired diameter with some pressure on the lube.
Leaves a thin even coat of lube over the entire patch or can be adjusted to only lube the portion of the patch that will be in the case.
Sure not the conventional method of rolling on a wet patch but does provide good service for me. I do tend to be rather non conventional in many things sometime to my benefit and sometimes quite the opposite.

[Don McDowell]

Yeh I like to think "outside the box" once in awhile....
This lube I dip these bullets in was the softened Ozk nasa. It sure penetrated the patch I was sort of worried the patch might not shred but the confetti drifting down in front of the muzzle told the story the shred was alright.. These bullets were also dry rolled.
Might do a handful of wet rolled then dip lube those after the paper has dried.
Like I say it's just something I decided to piddledink with, just because I can.. Thinking of a hunting patched load possibility, along with something to keep from having to wipe between shots during the offhand target at a gong match..

[dave roelle]

Hi Don:

I continue on with my BPCR studies, especially regarding paper patch methods and materials.
I have wondered about lubing the paper as opposed to "dry" paper and the abrasive effects of dry paper. It seems most folks don't lube pp'd and that highly polished bores are the result and thats a good thing !!! and they shoot very well.

As soon as i get the grease groove thing understood and shooting well i'm gonna start playing with the paper patch method and see what happens there for me.

The "lubed paper patch" thing kindles the thought of "prelubricated paper" if a dry wrapped patch will stay in place i wonder what a "pre-lubed paper" would be like ----- waxed paper ?
---------rambling aside, i'll be curious to see where this path leads

Expecting a new baco mold and handles to be delivered this weekend to continue with the grease groove learning curve.


dave

[Don McDowell]

Dave I'm betting you like that BACO mould. I along with others have requested them to build a hollowbase nose pour adjustable patched bullet mould and the answer is a standard box and stock " not even under the threat of death"...
Anyway this lubed patch thing is just a squirrely idea I got from the 1875 remington catalog. In their reloading instructions it says to take put a drop of spermoil on the patch and then spread it around with your finger and wipe off the excess. Also Rooster sells a paperpatch lube, and some have opined that applying a dab of your favorite bullet lube to the patch after loading was an ok thing. So I just took it a step further. Not real sure if it's a good thing to do or not, but do believe I'll try it again with loads more carefuly crafted.
Tried the wax paper thing... that's not on the try it again list..
Paper patching is fun, but it doesn't take to long to figure out why greasers made patched bullets obsolete. So have fun with your greasers when you get that down pat and happy , then take up the patched bullet, that way you've still got the greasers to fall back on to build your confidence back a little bit.

[Lead pot]

Maybe you aught to try using wax paper for a patch, it wont stick:bigsmyl2:

[Beekeeper]

Don,
Paul Mathews in his book"The Paper Jacket" suggest dipping the patched boolits in bees wax and letting the set until the patch soaks up the wax and then allowing them to dry before loading.
Don't know and he is a little vague as to whether it is for BP or smokeless.
Havent done it yet but think I might give it a try.
Have shot numerous 71/84 BP rounds that were patched to groove with out wiping or blowing using Emmerts lube on the patch.

Next time I shoot the 71/84 will give the bees wax thing a try and let you know.

Jim

[dave roelle]

Hey Don:

After the first of the year i'm going to start machining my own pp mold--heck (just cus i can) i have a shop full of state of the art verticle machining centers and lathes----paper patch cavities will be a cinch to create.

I'd be happy to see what we could build.

I've been thinking that one of the "ampco metals" alloys would make a great material for the cavity----i'll give them a call and see about a sample------i have cast iron, brass and a variety of tool steels for sprue plates and such.

If you send me the cavity spec's you like (pm or mail) i'll be happy to draw up detailed prints in autocad.

That way you have a digital record suitable for use by the c.a.m. programs most shops use, that may let you entice them to build one for you.

some shop pics for ya




heading galveston bay---------------the flounder are runnin

dave

[Don McDowell]

Dave, if I was to design a patched bullet for the 45-70 it'ld be .444 diameter when cast from 20-1 would be hollow based and adjustable from about 1 1/10 inch to 1 4/10 inch. It would have a nose configuration either like the original sharps creedmoor bullets or something on the order of the original postel bullet nose, today folks are calling that more the PJ creedmoor nose.
If you get to feeling froggy and want to try something like that let me know, I'll chip in to help with the mold blocks, maybe get a set of blanks from RCBS or NEI?

Have fun with the flounder. Have a dr friend in south MS keeps telling us to come down so he can take us out fishing in the gulf, one of these days we're going to surprise the hell out of him and show up on his door step. lol

[dave roelle]

Don, i'll put a drawing together and see where we go with it

What is the benefit of the hollow base ? more consistent obturation ?

Don't worry about bits and pieces i have plenty of materials to play with----------i'll see if i can find the "creedmore nose" on a bullet to digitize -------this kinda stuff comes under the "fun stuff" category for me ------perhaps we'll get lucky and end up with a something that actually works.

By all means take your bud up on the fishin-----------both inshore and offshore are the best kind of fun.

dave

[Don McDowell]

Dave, yes I think the hollow base design helps with the obturation, I also find it easier to wrap the patch tight and keep it tight with a hollow base, if your roll it right the patch sort of locks in like a crimp on a shotgun shell. Flat bases I have a dickens of a time keeping the patches tight long enough to get them crammed into a cartridge case...

We have a greatnephew that isn't interested in much except for cows and horses, altho since he got to college the fairer sex has apparently got his attention, but at anyrate we're hoping when he gets a few years of something other than living with mom and dad ,and knows what he really wants to do we can work him into this outfit, then those southern deer,hogs and fish in the gulf best be on the lookout. Ms Shortyann and I are hoping to be able to take some time off to go do things that we can't get to now..

[Bullshop]

I just want to mention that member redriverrick our Canadian member makes a fine adjustable mold for PP and includes both flat base and concave base pins with his molds, as well as a template for cutting paper.
I cant remember for sure but think mine drops at .444 to .446".
With the 9# paper they patch up to .450 to .451"
Excellent quality molds!

[Lead pot]

Dave.

If you are seriously thinking about making moulds, you might think about making swage dies.
You would not have the competition making dies only two guys make swage dies here in the states that I know of and that is the two Corbin's and CH-4-D but they only make them for the reloading press.
I have had swage dies on order for over a year and forgot about them till I got a notice that the credit card expired.
All you need is bar stock and a heat treat oven.

Kurt

[powderburnerr]

I would second the swage dies,, they are a pain to get from the corbins.

[Don McDowell]

DEannnn where the heck ya been? Wore the bore out of that ne 4477 yet?

[dave roelle]

Hi guy's:

this is in no way a for profit thing for me at all !!!!!!!!!!!!


Building my own mold is simply a fun thing for me to do------------i get a lot of satisfaction creating things my self and building my own "boolits" is great fun----------------its actually hard for me to believe that the several custom mold makers can make any money at all selling molds for $150 to $250.

With burdened hourly shop rates pushing $90/hour around here its just not practical.

I'm completely unfamiliar with boolit swaging dies but i imagine the proper way to create them is sinker e.d.m cavity work in prehardened tool steel pieces------then a diamond polish job on the working surfaces--------------thats a bunch of hours in a one off job atmosphere.

the prelubed paper thing is still interesting------------i gotta study that a bit more

dave

[Red River Rick]

Dave. All you need is bar stock and a heat treat oven.
Kurt

If that's all you need to make swaging dies................why didn't you make your own instead of ordering and waiting over a year? I know you have your own equipment.

:killingpc

RRR

[dave roelle]

Hi Rick:

I had not looked at your web site till now------------very nice things you have there------Kudos to you for the pretty work.

dave

[Lead pot]

Rick I have made swage dies but I still dont have it down as far as getting the dies polished enough and the heat treading down so the die dont rupture.

[EDK]

Don,
Paul Mathews in his book"The Paper Jacket" suggest dipping the patched boolits in bees wax and letting the set until the patch soaks up the wax and then allowing them to dry before loading.
Don't know and he is a little vague as to whether it is for BP or smokeless.

Jim

IIRC he was referring to waterproofing the paper patched military ammuniton in brass cases at the ammunition factory/arsenals. Basically dipped the assembled round in melted beeswax or similar concotion and then used some kind of a die to remove the excess so it would chamber easily. This was military issue, so large production numbers.

OT There was something about british mercernaries in India..1850s?....who were muslims and rebelled because they were told their paper cartridge ammo had been dipped in lard/pork byproduct. Khyber Rifles unit?

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Good Cheer]

IIRC he was referring to waterproofing the paper patched military ammuniton in brass cases. Basically dipped the assembled round in melted beeswax or similar concotion and then used some kind of a die to remove the excess so it would chamber easily. This was military issue, so large production numbers.

OT There was something about british mercernaries in India..1850s?....who were muslims and rebelled because they were told their paper cartridge ammo had been dipped in lard/pork byproduct. Khyber Rifles unit?

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

Think he described using a wire frame to soak the patched slugs and drain them. Then, load only after 24 hrs (to let the wax let go). That's what I do with muzzleloading bullets.

[EDK]

I was referring to 19th century military ammunition AFTER it was assembled.

I mis-read that Don and Good Cheer were referring to the patched boolits BEFORE loading.

There's a lot of interesting things in the Paul Matthews books...I bought the "mini library" from Wolfe Publishing years ago. THE PAPER JACKET was re-printed fairly recently...it was getting "scalped" at about $60 on some sites.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[montana_charlie]

THE PAPER JACKET was re-printed fairly recently...it was getting "scalped" at about $60 on some sites.
Available here for $21.97...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Paper-Jacket-loading-shooter-Single-shot-Sharps-Gunbook-/120652094676?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c176cdcd4

And at BACO for $22.50...

CM

[SharpsShooter]

I've been using Dan's Bullplate on patched boolits prior to running them through a push through sizer. Helps iron the patch smooth without tearing

SS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have wondered about that Rooster Jacket lube for patched bullets?

Any Thoughts??

KW
The Lunger

[powderburnerr]

it makes the patch thicker if wet before wrapping and let dry, also appears gummy when wrapped , I took some patches off that had been done this way and they were a dog to get the patch off of ,, others probably have had different experiances, ,been thinking a better way would be to wipe them across a damp sponge of it and wrap with the dry side in,

[Kenny Wasserburger]

What I was thing was after the bullet was wet patched then put some of the lube on the patched part? AFTER DRYING.

I know that Dan was dip lubing his patched bullets a few years back but found no merit in doing it after a good bit of testing.

I keep looking at what Slug Gun shooters are doing with their oiled Paper Patches of course they are Chase patched also.

KW
The Lunger

[powderburnerr]

the stuff is so messy it is hard to get it on the bullet after loading , it dries fast and builds up on your fingers ,, real quick , so I tried different ways to get her dun. . havent found a good way to do it yet............... Dean

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Thanks Dean,

What I have heard is a little damm little goes a long ways?

KW
The Lunger

[powderburnerr]

that part is true , . I had the most trouble with it when trying to do what you are thinking ,A drop on the fingers , rub it on the bullet patch . my fingers seemed to suck the moisture out of the stuff and within 4 or 5 bullets my fingers were built up and sticky , was going to try the damp spnge and that may work with a patched bullet , just roll it lightly, ..the real problem I saw with it was the sticking to the bullet as it seemed to soak through the patch , , that caused me to ponder a bit..I may have been a little generous with it I dunno .I did follow the directions...Dean

[nanuk]

Think he described using a wire frame to soak the patched slugs and drain them. Then, load only after 24 hrs (to let the wax let go). That's what I do with muzzleloading bullets.


Good Cheer: can you describe your method? I am wanting to patch for ML also. I'm just looking for different ideas.
TIA
nanuk

[Lead pot]

I have never seen an advantage with lubed patches over dry or wet wrapped.

[Gunlaker]

I keep looking at what Slug Gun shooters are doing with their oiled Paper Patches of course they are Chase patched also.

KW
The Lunger

I might play with this a bit too one day. I seem to recall reading about the old timers pushing a patch lightly lubed with whale oil through the bore before each shot.

Chris.

[powderburnerr]

kurt ,
me neither , but you gotta play ocasionally,

[Lead pot]

[smilie=f:Oh I do:-P thats why I say I have never seen an advantage with lubed patches over dry or wet wrapped. :smile:

[Red River Rick]

............I seem to recall reading about the old timers pushing a patch lightly lubed with whale oil through the bore before each shot.

Chris.

Chris:

That's great for you, your on the West Coast, whale oil should be readily available.
What about us poor saps stuck here in the middle of the prairies, where there are no whales! :violin:

Do you think Manitoba Musk Ox Lard would work? :wink:

RRR

[montana_charlie]

goose grease?

[powderburnerr]

go to walmart , and render some of them shoppers...............

[Gunlaker]

Chris:

That's great for you, your on the West Coast, whale oil should be readily available.
What about us poor saps stuck here in the middle of the prairies, where there are no whales! :violin:

Do you think Manitoba Musk Ox Lard would work? :wink:

RRR

Maybe I'll send you some. There oughta be a lot of oil in one of those whales :drinks:

Chris.

[Lead pot]

kurt ,
me neither , but you gotta play ocasionally,

You might give some motor honey a try once.
Just a little on the fingers when the patch is on the bullet works about as good as anything.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer: can you describe your method? I am wanting to patch for ML also. I'm just looking for different ideas.
TIA
nanuk

Here's my super duper high tech set up.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/WRAPPED.jpg

[nanuk]

Wow...
that is "High Tech"

Are you using a "PID" controller to regulate the temp of the wax?

heh.

You using pure wax or a mix?
I'm wondering about an Emmerts or something like that, or if straight BW works good.

[RUH451]

New Guy here and I have been messing with the cheap version of swaging.
My current interest is long range muzzle loaders (typical 600 to 1000 yd. matches) but what I'm doing might be of interest here.
For PP designs, I make 'hammer dies' (aka pound dies') and have been happy with the results. I design the shape and make the 'D' reamer similar to several of the threads describe. I make different shape base punches to experiment with.
This 'Hammer Die' method does not seem to be limited to the softer alloys as the presses are. I shoot 20-1 to 18-1 alloy in my Gibbs and have no problem. I have tried 12-1 and except to have to add a extra shot with the hammer- had no problems.
The trick I found is in the lube. So far, no breakage - no wear noted yet. They seem to get slicker with use.
They sure come out pretty- and I have shoot them out to 1200 yards and they fly well. I feel that perfect balance shows up (a lot!) at longer ranges.
Something I can make in my basement shop- and try a bunch of different shapes, weights and base designs without the cost- except in my 'play time'.
I want to make some up for my cartridge guns and am sniffing around here on the boards for design hints. Then -more reamers!

[RUH451]

At LRML matches I see guys rolling their PP slugs across a ink pad with a Balistol mix in the pad just before loading. Must work for some- but added more crud to clean out between shots and did not help accuracy for my Gibbs.
The South African Long Range Team puts their bullet lube in empty cap tins and rub their index finger across it and rub just that little bit on the paper at loading. Their impression was that it gave a bit more muzzle velocity and a more consistant velocity that is desired for long range shooting.
The lube was a real stiff mixture of beeswax, sheep fat and other secret South African ingredients! A 'distinctive' oder came with it too!
They took the World Chanmpionships- so it is on my list to try this year. (maybe with lanolin instead of rendered sheep fat in the summer sun!)

P.S. My post above from earlier today was in reference to posts on page one of this thread when the topic drifted off towards swaging. Little late....eh what?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Some of the old Dead guys mentioned Graphite to the patches before loading. We have been talking about that over on The Shiloh Forum also under a post Dan T Started about moulds.

I think a bit of Powder Graphite to the bullet with a nice Dry Chamois. It may work well who Knows one thing is the Coefficient of the Friction would be decreased and Should Show up on Muzzle Velocity's at the Chronograph also. Powder Graphite would not have any effect on the Patch release from the Bullet hence my thoughts on using it.

Food for thought. With all the other stuff I have done groups continue to impress me with the old 2-7/8ths Sharps. My wad stack, using Cork (which the old Dead guys used).

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

Cork wads are very beneficial in helping to seal the bore and protecting the fragile cup base bullet base because they expand with the pressure behind them.
I use .060 and .120 wads for different calibers. I have never recovered a bullet that had distortion or fins on the sharp base edges. They even eliminate the paper folds that get imprinted on the base from just using a card or plastic wad.
And another important thing is the wad does not draft behind the bullet like a single card wad does.

[onesonek]

Along with graphite powder, I also wondered about the mica I use neck lubing,,,then too, maybe try just a thin coat of Recluse's 45-45-10 mix.