New M39, wanting to mimic jacketed velocity...

[Naga]

Hello, all. First post here. I have some rudimentary experience in reloading, and I am going to be getting a casting setup for Christmas. As such, I have a few questions.

I picked up a Finnish B barrel M39 over the weekend. The exterior is a bit worn in places, but the bore looks as good as the bore of my WASR-10 did when I first got it. As such, I want to do as much as I can to keep it in top shape, while still wringing out as much accuracy from it as I can. As such, I would like to try casting boolits for it.

Here's my dilemma, though: I want to try to maintain as close to jacketed velocity as possible. That means around 2,800 FPS with a 150gr boolit, or 2,500 with a 180gr boolit. I want to do this mainly because I want the ability to target shoot out to longer ranges without having to lob the rounds through the air, and also because I like the feel of the recoil when I shoot my Mosins. :mrgreen:

As I just said, I will be using this rifle for target shooting, so I don't have to worry about expansion, or anything like that. Based on my reading, it seems that I have only a couple of options. The first is to apply the information I found HERE (http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/9.html), by casting a hard (I estimate around BHN 31, given the numbers there) boolit and using powder with a lower peak pressure. The second is to use paper patched boolits. This option also gives me the advantage of being able to use a softer alloy, in case I ever do want to hunt with it. However, I have read that using paper patches wears out the barrels faster than using regular cast or jacketed bullets.

Here are my questions:
1. Does the first method mentioned actually work? If so, which alloy should I use, and how should I treat/quench it?
2. I was never able to find any conclusive information about how much worse the wear from paper patching really is. Does it cause severe wear, or is it's severity mostly hype?

I realize I can get good accuracy out of light loads, and I will probably make some of those for plinking, but for the informal competitions my friends and I like to have, I would like it if I could retain the velocity of full power cartridges. Thanks for any advice.

[madsenshooter]

Hee, hee. Like me, wanting to drop straight in to the point of "This **** don't work", back to jacketed. Been there, done that. I'd suggest starting low and slow and working up gradually, making observations along the way. It's easy to get boolits going that fast, but the trick is doing it with any degree of accuracy. I can't as yet claim much success along those lines myself. I have had a 169gr up to 2450 with reasonable accuracy though. If one wants to just make noise and not care whether or not you hit what you're aiming at, blanks work fine for that, lot less work. I'd stick with the heavier bullet @2450fps for the initial goal. Start at 44grs of 4831 (2060fps & 27700psi) and work up. Start for 4350 would be 39gr.

[BABore]

PM Dutch4122 and ask him about his testing. He makes jacketed velocity, but with heavier boolits.

It's not all about boolit hardness. It's more about boolit fit, how you launch it, and component choice.

[Dutch4122]

BaBore is right on the money. Boolit fit is the key here. I've been working with several Mosins, including an M-39 with a "B" barrel. If your M-39 is like mine there should be a "D" stamped on the barrel somewhere just ahead of the hex receiver. That indicates that your chamber was throated for a longer and heavier jacketed bullet than earlier Finnish rifles. If you have a "D" throated barrel, then you can't guarantee accuracy with the lighter boolits; and by lighter I mean anything under about 210 grains in weight. The general rule of thumb here is use a heavier, longer slug with a long fat bore riding nose that will be able to engrave the rifling when chambered. Also, measure the inside neck diameter of a casing that was fired from your rifle; then subtract .001" from that measurement. The result will be the diameter that you will size your boolits drive bands to.

That being said, there are options. The NOE 316299 has shown promise; but lacks the nose length to engrave in my rifles. It is a fattened version of the Lyman 314299 that many have reported some success with in the 7.62x54r at lower velocity. The problem here is that there are so many variables with the individual Finnish and Russian Mosin rifles that it does boil down to trial and error. I wouldn't hesitate to try a fat Loverin style boolit as well; especially if the front bands were of a smaller diameter than the rear bands.

As for "high velocity" and the 7.62x54r. It has a different meaning when using boolits over 200 grains. Remember that the original 1890's Russian service load was a 210 grn Cupro-Nickle jacketed Round Nose slug leaving the 29 inch barrel of the "Three Line Rifle" at approximately 2,050 fps. That velocity is what I used as the standard I was trying to acheive in my rifles. The only way to do this is by using powders that will not overstress the alloy. Basically we are talking about slow burning rifle powders. IMR-7828 has shown promise in this caliber; and powders of a similar burn rate is where you need to focus your attention. Since the M-39 has a 27 inch barrel you might look at 4831, but I wouldn't go as fast burning as RL-19 (speaking from experience on that one!) or 4350. A powder with too fast a burn rate will make high shotgun patterns on the target instead of groups. That is due to the pressure building past a certain peak in the bore and overstressing the alloy even though there is no leading and a shiney bore.

The alloy that I use is 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead, water dropped from the mold. This alloy will harden to a BHN of 22 or so over two weeks to a month after casting. It is a hard alloy that is not brittle and very accurate in many rifle applications.

Hope this helps,

[Larry Gibson]

Naga

Here's my dilemma, though: I want to try to maintain as close to jacketed velocity as possible. That means around 2,800 FPS with a 150gr boolit, or 2,500 with a 180gr boolit. I want to do this mainly because I want the ability to target shoot out to longer ranges without having to lob the rounds through the air, and also because I like the feel of the recoil when I shoot my Mosins.

That is the initial goal of many 1st time casters. A worthy goal but very difficult to obtain. Note that Dutch is, in a way telling you that 2000 fps is about it for "target" accuracy with the 7.62x54R using a well fitting regular cast bullet. Number of reasons why but the fast 9.5" twist is the primary one.

As I just said, I will be using this rifle for target shooting, so I don't have to worry about expansion, or anything like that. Based on my reading, it seems that I have only a couple of options. The first is to apply the information I found HERE (http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category16/9.html), by casting a hard (I estimate around BHN 31, given the numbers there) boolit and using powder with a lower peak pressure.

The 7.62x54R does not have the case capacity using a slow enough powder to keep the psi under the yeild limit and get either 2800 or 2500 fps with cast bullets of those weights. Bottom line; to obtain those velocities with those weights of bullets in the 7,62x54R requires close to the same psi as it does with jacketed bullets.

The second is to use paper patched boolits.

This is indeed your option if you want to obtain "target" accuracy at those velocities. Suggest you go to the PP bullet forum and read up.

Here are my questions:
1. Does the first method mentioned actually work? No, as mentioned, at least not at the velocities you want with "target" accuracy.If so, which alloy should I use, and how should I treat/quench it?
2. I was never able to find any conclusive information about how much worse the wear from paper patching really is. Does it cause severe wear, or is it's severity mostly hype? The boys over on the PP forum can explain the pro's and con's of PP'd bullets wearing out barrels. Personally I do not concern myself with such as i do not expect to shoot out any barrels with PP or regular cast. I have on the other hand shot out several barrels with J bullets but I was competing in matches and it took a lot of rounds.

I realize I can get good accuracy out of light loads, and I will probably make some of those for plinking, but for the informal competitions my friends and I like to have, I would like it if I could retain the velocity of full power cartridges. It might surprise you how well a 314299 or the NOE comparable bullet carrys at longer ranges when started out at the sedate velocity of 1950 fps. That is the velocity of my 314299 out of my M39 and my M91/30 sniper and I do very good shooting out to 500 yards with it.Thanks for any advice.

Larry Gibson

[NuJudge]

If you are going to try for these velocities, you will be using slow powders. Do read up on something Secondary Explosion Effect, or S.E.E., which very occasionally happens with reduced loads of slow powders.

Assuming you have a relatively smooth barrel, and that if there is groove diameter variation that the big end is at the rear, you should have no difficulty reaching 2000 fps. Everything becomes much more difficult above there.

[357maximum]

PM Dutch4122 and ask him about his testing. He makes jacketed velocity, but with heavier boolits.

It's not all about boolit hardness. It's more about boolit fit, how you launch it, and component choice.

First I will say welcome to the fray Naga.

Second thing is that I second what Babore has told you. Dutch has actually done it and knows alot of the things that do not work and a few that do. I will warn you though....his loads are rather "lively" in a mosin. I need a shoulder pad to shoot very many of em, but I am a bit recoil sensitive due to getting into and consequently losing fights with backhoes and other heavy equipment.

Third...nevermind the chest thumping and leg humping you will see from several members on this High Velocity Cast subject.....It can be done IF you are willing to do the work required to get there.....it is not an easy climb though.

[Naga]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll drop my aspirations for now and just go for maximum accuracy, though I would still like it if I could obtain enough velocity so as to not have to really lob the boolits.

I realize most of the people on this forum are using wheel weights in their alloys. Unfortunately, none of the tire shops in my area will let me have their old wheel weights, so I'm going to have to stick to purchased alloys. For the sake of accurate comparisons, though, what is an alloy that would function as a substitute to wheel weights?

Dutch4122, my gun does indeed have the 'D' stamp. I see you mentioned a few molds, but also seemed to imply that neither is perfect. Since I have never reloaded cast before, I don't have any calipers yet, but I'm going to get some and slug my bore. In the meantime, what are some other molds you would suggest looking at, or at least, what weight range should I be looking at for my rifle?

Again, thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

Naga

Alloys with a BHN of 16 - 22 will work well. There are several commercial makers of such alloys so it is not hard to get. If you can scrounge up some linotype add 20% lead to it and it works well also. The "D" stamp genrerally means the rifle is throated and suitable for the longer and heavier "D" bullet. (180 - 220 gr depending on country of origin and date of manufacture). The "L" bullet is the lighter 145 - 155 gr bullets.

You might want to get a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook since you are new to loading cast bullets. Lots of valuable info in there for the new cast bullet loader. I would suggest a Lee C312-185 and or the Lyman 314299 for a mould. Both shoot well in my "D" stamped Finns but mine have tight groove dimensions. I size at .312 and .314 for each bullet resptectfully and they shoot very well in my M/Ns.

1st photo shows group with the Lee bullet at 1850 fps, this load shoots this way all day long. The next is with the Lyman 314299 over 4895 with a dacron filler at 1950 fps. I was zeroing the rifle (issue iron sights with both groups) and the last 10 shots are 9 Xs and 1 ten at 3 o'clock.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

Kirksite Zinc alloy bullets can be pushed to the same velocities as FMJ bullets.

The Kirksite alloy bullets weighs in at 60% the weight of a lead bullet from the same mold.

A mold that throws a 200 gr lead bullet would throw a 120 gr kirksite bullet.

[Dutch4122]

Naga-

Here's the process that I used. With these steps I have launched a 238 grain custom boolit at a chronographed 2,280 fps (powder was IMR-7828) out of a 1927 Ishevsk Mosin Nagant with a 29" barrel. Accuracy was not quite what I'd hoped for; 4 inches at 100 yards from the bench rest. But they are consistant and repeatable groups, not wild patterns. The fault lies in my own design ideas for the custom 238 grn slug as it did not nose engrave in my rifles. Some of this info I have already mentioned but I think it should be repeated.

#1 Slugging the bore is not necessary. Just measure the inside of a case neck from a casing fired in that rifle. Subtract .001" from that measurement and that number will be the diameter you size your boolits to. If you get a measurement of .315" then you will size your boolits to .314" and so on.

#2 At this point I can't recommend the Lyman 314299 as they are currently produced. A friend recently bought one that dropped .313" with wheelweight alloy. A better bet would be the NOE 316299. My 316299 casts .315"+ on the bands and .305" on the nose when cast of 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead. Remember, a long nose is important. Even if it doesnt reach the rifling the closer the better when chambered. Gas checks are a must.

#3 Powder is very important. You have to use a powder that will not build too much pressure and overstress the alloy before the boolit exits the bore. Like I said before, IMR-7828 has worked well in the 29 inch barreled rifles. Since your M-39 has a 27 inch barrel I think you can use a slightly faster burning powder than I did. The powders I would consider here in order from fastest to slowest are: IMR-4831, AA3100, V-V N160, Hodgdon 4831, Win Supreme 780, Alliant RL-22, and IMR-7828. My gut tells me H-4831 would be a good place to start. If the groups suddenly rise on the paper and go wild as you are working up through powder charges that are not maximum yet then it is time to start over with a slower burning powder.

#4 The alloy is 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead dropped straight from the mold into water. BHN should come out around 22 if your alloy is right. Size, lube, and check them within 24 hours if possible and then wait a minimum of 2 weeks so they can age harden before loading and shooting them.

#5 I used CCI Large Rifle Primers.

#6 I also use the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die to flare the case mouths before seating boolits.

#7 Cartidge Overall Length should be as long as possible so that the nose engraves or almost engraves the rifling.

Again, I hope this helps and feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions.

[Larry Gibson]

Naga

All good advise from Dutch, although I think he is too modest. The difference between his 2280 gps and my 1950 fps with the 314299 is his was running 173,000 RPM and mine was running 148,000 RPM. His group was 4" with unkown # of shots and mine was less than 2" with 10 shots. Higher RPM, i.e. higher velocity than 1900 fps, gets you larger groups not "wild patterns". If you want "target accuracy" with cast bullets you must keep the velocity/RPM in check. You can have "ball ammo" accuracy upwards of 2300 - 2400 fps but the 2800 and 2500 fps you asked about will probably get you the "wild patterns", not "target accuracy". It's just about that simple.

Larry Gibson

[Dutch4122]

.......................... what is an alloy that would function as a substitute to wheel weights?Instead of straight wheelweight alloy I would stay with 50% wheelweights and 50% pure lead, water dropped from the mold. Again, this alloy when water dropped is plenty hard, but not brittle. When shooting boolits at lower velocities & pressures this alloy is also very accurate air cooled.

Dutch4122, my gun does indeed have the 'D' stamp. I see you mentioned a few molds, but also seemed to imply that neither is perfect.Unfortunately when dealing with the Mosins of any make this is true. None of the designs currently available are "perfect."......................................... In the meantime, what are some other molds you would suggest looking at, or at least, what weight range should I be looking at for my rifle?Trial and error is about it at this point. Again the NOE 316299 is the one I would recommend you try first.


:brokenima

Hope this helps,

[Landric]

Any thoughts on this NOE GB mould at .316 for the M39?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80372

[Dutch4122]

Any thoughts on this NOE GB mould at .316 for the M39?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80372


It might work. That's as far as I can or will go on this design. The .316" diameter on the bands is a good thing. Also, the .305" diameter on the nose is beneficial as well. The problem with the nose, though, is that the .305" diameter section of the nose is very short. Long nosed Spitzer type cast boolit designs where the nose leaves a large section unsupported in the bore can be hit or miss with accuracy. It may shoot fine at low velocity and perform like a turd at higher velocities and pressures.

Like the man says, "ya pays yer money and takes yer chances!"

Hope this helps,

[Dutch4122]

For your comparison. Notice how the .305" bore riding section of the NOE 316299 is much longer than the .305" bore riding section of the NOE 316365.

[Landric]

That is a significant difference.

[RU shooter]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll drop my aspirations for now and just go for maximum accuracy, though I would still like it if I could obtain enough velocity so as to not have to really lob the boolits.

I fail to understand the logic to this,Nothing personal mind you, but what difference does it make what the vel. is same with trajectory to the target as long as the accuracy is there . You have to adjust your sights anyways!!! Just keep a good data book. Me I'll take accuracy over speed any day in this application.


Tim

[Wayne Smith]

Since I have never reloaded cast before, I don't have any calipers yet, but I'm going to get some and slug my bore.

Naga, get calipers to measure the OAL of your rounds. Get a micrometer to measure a bore slug or a throat slug. It makes a huge difference.