264 wildcat questions

[the other DWS]

I'm very seriously planning on putting together a castbullet rifle for use in the ASSRA single shot offhand competition and have some questions on wildcat cartridge theory. the rifle will be a schuetzen-style custom built Ruger #3 with a heavy fast twist barrel.

I'm very partial to the 264/6.5 family of bullets and cartridges. I am planning on using the .25-35 case necked up to 264---- call it a .26-35. Since this rifle will be used in offhand 200 yard match shooting, mostly on a range with wildly variable wind conditions I'm planning on using the long heavy 6.5 bullet designed by you guys a number of years ago because of its great SD. We shoot a lot of 100 shot matches so accumulated recoil can be factor; that and the great SD are major considerations in focussing on the 6.5. I don't need a huge amount of powder capacity. I figure that for match use 1300-1500 fps will work fine. I will have to have the GC area reamed out since we are not allowed to use anything but plain-based lead bullets.
Under match conditions I will probably be mechanically breechseating the bullet into the throat prior to loading a charged and primed case. this is pretty much the standard method in schuetzen-style shooting


My questions are about the case design fine points; specially the neck and shoulder areas. I started out thinking of simply necking up the standard 25-35 using a 260 Rem expander, seating a bullet out so the base is flush with the bottom of the neck, and sending it off to have the chamber reamer made.

But I'm second guessing myself now. I'm wondering about "improving" the case with a shorter neck, straighter body and sharper shoulders, Just in case I want to use it for hunting or longer range shooting, (maybe with a few of those "other" kind of bullets I use in my 260 Rem BLR and my 6.5x57 Voere-mannlicher)

Does anyone who has experience working with improved and wildcat cartridges in a cast bullet context have any suggestions or advice?

[rhbrink]

Since you are using a Ruger action and could easily use a rimless case how about a the 6mm BR necked up to 6.5 probably already done making reamers and loading dies easily available. All of the BR cases are widely used in all types of competition, cast bullet, short range "regular" benchrest, all the way out to 1000 yard shooting.

[the other DWS]

That probably would be the really logical thing to do, or even more logically, simply chamber it for the 260 Rem. (or 6.5x57) since I already have plenty of cases dies etc etc for either.
However, this whole thing is a bit Quixotic anyway and I want to stick with a more or less traditional rimmed case. There were some early rimmed 6.5 cases on the european side. I've seen a really lovely antique Win Hi-wall sporter factory-chambered in a small 6.5 (dutch-I think) cartridge that could have been an ancestor for the "new" 6.8.
IN any case (no pun intended) using the 25-35 will be a basic "given" for my project. I'm just trying to understand the "improved" neck/shoulder/blown-out case thing

[rhbrink]

I was just trying to avoid custom reamers and dies they get deep into your pockets quick. Going from 6mm BR to a 6.5mm BR in easy just run the 6mm case into the 6.5 die and you have one.

There are various wildcats made on the .225 Win. case which has a small rim, and one that I have thought about a few times is to neck down the 30 Herret case to whatever as it was made from the 30-30 case originally.

Good luck, Richard

[the other DWS]

necking down a 30 Herrett is trouble. lots of problems making the 30H to start with, its a 30-30 short and you have to do a lot of neck turning and reaming to avoid serious pressure issues. BTDT had one in a Contender for IHMSSA---switched to the 357H very quickly

necking UP a 25-35'll be a LOT less hassle, even if it does cost a custom reamer.

[Doc Highwall]

E.A.Brown makes a 6.5 BRM I believe made on the 225 Winchester case.

[swheeler]

I'm planning on using the long heavy 6.5 bullet designed by you guys a number of years ago because of its great SD.

You may find that mold casts too large for a standard .264/.256 us barrel

[TCLouis]

How about a longer neck on a 6.5 TCU, or run 222 Mag case through the 6.5 TCU die for a long cast Boolit friendly neck. With breech seating the short neck may be a good thing

Or even a 6.5X50 Japanese standard case. This is likely to be about the same case capacity of the 26-35.

Just opinions of course

[-06]

Just put up a 6.5 Rem. Mag. Bench Rest set of dies for sale. Also another you may be able to use.

[Mk42gunner]

What about using a 6.5 JDJ? It is basically an improved .225 Winchester, which I believe was originally based on a .30-30 case. You could have the rim recess cut for the larger diameter .30-30 size.

Robert

[HORNET]

At the plain-based velocities required for ASSRA competition, you're going to need a real quick twist to stabilize the 6.5 Cruise Missile, like maybe 7-1/2". This is not usually considered to be compatible with superb cast boolit accuracy. I'd also have some concern about ballistic uniformity using that large of a case. One of the most successful cases used in ASSRA matches is the .32 Miller Short, which is basically a .357 Mag tapered down with a 200 grain boolit breech-seated ahead of it (I know there are other refinements, but that's the basics). The smaller capacity cases operate at higher pressures to achieve more uniformity, just like the smaller BR series do. That large of a case may vary considerably more, much like the .32/40 compared to the .32 Miller. It's up to you.
If I just had to go to a 6.5, I think I'd tend more to a .25/20 case necked up and use a 266386, especially for breech-seating.
Let us know how it goes, I could be wrong.

[flounderman]

I think you can find a 6.5 on a 30 30 case, which is basicly what the 25 35 is and it would be probably a better bet than the small cases. I think the longer neck would be an advantage. I don't think you would get much case stretch with the loads you are going to be using so I wouldn't go with the improved version. you're not after hyper velocity, but you could probably equal 260 velocities with the standard 6.5-30-30. from what I have been reading, slower powder. peaking further down the barrel gives better accuracy and the 30-30 case capacity I believe would be better for slower powder. another plus, 30-30 cases are plentiful and cheap. most of the old schutzen cartridges were long, tapered, and had long necks. lastly, I would go for something less than the heaviest bullet available. the faster the twist, the better chanch of stripping because of the resistance, and the more recoil. my opinion, I wouldn't go over 140 grain and would try about 130 grain. I have a half dozen or so 6.5s and my favorite jacketed bullet is the 129 grain. with your reduced velocity, it might take more twist to stabilize. gain twist rifling would be a plus if you can find it.

[scrapcan]

The 6.5BRM offered by E. ARthur Browm in their 97d Rifle is based on the 219 donaldson wasp, which in turn is based on the 30-30 parent case.

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

I woudl be worried aobut it for cast as it has the shoulder moved forward and has a shorter case neck than the parent 30-30.

I do however think a 30-30 necked t 6.5 or 7mm would be good to work with. Heck one could see if they could do a 7-30 waters, you might have a good chance at finding a rental reamer for that.

[Doc Highwall]

manleyjt, I agree with you on the short neck on the 6.5BRM I just mentioned it because it is 6.5mm and has a rim. I do agree that the 32 miller is the best cartridge but they are also breach seating the bullets and it make me think why this cannot be done with a 357 mag with a 200 grain plain base bullet.

[Bret4207]

I would leave it as a tight chambered 26/35. That lovely long neck helps align the boolit, the sloping shoulder is friendly to faster burning powders that will readily pop the boolit out at the speeds you need but will also handle some slower powders to move the pressure curve out.

One thing that you might think about is finding so 30 American brass for this, the 30-30 with the small primer pocket. Might give you an edge.

[Dark Helmet]

6.5x30-30 or 6.5x30-30 Ackley (both AKA Bullberry- 6.5 BB or 6.5 BB imp.)

[357Mag]

DWS -

Howdy !

I have soem ideas for you.

Please read your PMs.

Regards,
357Mag

[357Mag]

DWS -

Howdy !

If you are holdin' to the same ( or near same ) rim size for your wildcat alternate choices; howzabout necking-down .38-40 WCF ?

The rim size is a scant .014" larger in diam than what .25-35 has.

Case oal would be less than a PPC, but.... case' base and shoulder diameters would allow for good powder capacity/. The shorter case would also help when bullets are seated out long; to help contorl the resulting loaded cartridge oal.

Good quality .38-40 brass can be had.

Just a thought.


Regards,
357Mag

[the other DWS]

pistol length cases are quite popular with ASSRA shooters, especially the bench rest shooting side of the group. They use a number of 38/557/32-20 etc case-based cartridges; mostly on the Dell-Miller group. However they are most common in actions that do not have "shoulders" such as a Highwall, or a Ruger. we see them on the CPA/Stevens and Miller-type actions. When breech-seating, inserting a charged short case into the chamber of one of those actions can be difficult. even with modern powders loading density approaches 100% and there is no room for a bullet to fit into the case without insanely compressing the charge

Since my rifle is built around the Ruger #3 action I really need to use a longer rifle length case. Though I will be breech-seating most of the time it is handy to be able to load up a small batch of fixed ammo to take advantage of a temporary lull in adverse weather conditions. Additionally I do want to keep a reasonable traditional case if I can do so at relatively little cost to my accuracy. At this point I'm still leaning toward the 25-35 simply opened up the 26 cal

I will consider using the /30 american small primer brass if I can procure an adequate supply. However the process of annealing, necking down, trimming and neck-turning etc may make it almost more trouble than it is worth

[Doc Highwall]

I do not think you will be able to get any of the 30 American cases. I tried and had no luck so I am just going to try large pistol primers in my 30-30 Win.

[bhn22]

To get into better quality cases, I kind of like the idea of the 260 Rem idea. You could neck down some of the better quality .308 Win cases, or if you really want a rimmed case you could use .307 Winchester cases. I'd be a bit concerned about the concentricity of 25-35 cases since they were never really used as a match cartridge. Another possibility is to go the 6.5 Bellm route. 444 marlin cases sized down with 260 Rem dies. This leaves you with a longer case neck. I'd imagine you would need to size the cases down progressively to start. You could spec the reamer for unturned cases, or neck turned depending on your preference. By the time you do this, it may be more practical the go the 6.5 JDJ route as suggested earlier.