why H4227 unburnt in 25-20 ?

[atr]

I have been using H4227 in my 25-20 for both 63 and 85 grain cast.
I have been loading toward the top of the pressure/velocity chart.....(9 grains / no leading)
BUT,,,,there is always an amount of unburn or partially burnt powder left in the barrel after a day at the range...(30 rounds or so)...

Any thoughts any suggestions? Is this normal with H4227?
thanks
atr

[wheezengeezer]

I noticed the same 30 years ago with my 44 mag rifle.I did not like it .That was the reason I got away from 4227 and went with H110 for my heavy loads.But then if it does not foul anything up,and you get the desired performance ,what does it hurt?

[Bullshop]

Check some other load data sources. If its not burning its under pressure. If its under pressure the load needs to be worked up.
Is the data you have for jacketed bullets? Substituting a boolit for data for a bullet of the same weight will generally reduce the pressure. Even h110 will leave unburned powder if the pressure is too low.
9gn 4227 sounds kind of light to me for a 25/20. I shoot up to 10gn in a 22 hornet with a 50gn boolit.

[Hickory]

My quess would be that you did not have a hard enough crimp
on the boolit, but the 25-20 is a thin case cartridge that does not
take a hard crimp without collapsing the case.

[Rocky Raab]

Incomplete burning is a symptom of under-pressure for that powder.

Now, finding what causes the under-pressure can require some detective work. The charge weight may be too light. The bullet may be too light. The bullet may not provide enough bore sealing or friction. The crimp and/or bullet pull may be insufficient. The primer may be wrong. The gun/cartridge temperature may be too cold. Or, the powder may be too slow for that application.

Somewhere in that list is your problem.

Of course, if that load gives you adequate velocity and accuracy, a few unburned kernels may not represent a problem other than aesthetics. Powder kernels in the bore do not seem to cause any damage to the gun (they get blown out ahead of the next bullet, usually). Unless they jam up the gun's action, as with some revolver loads, many shooters simply live with the situation.

[atr]

Yes,,,,great accuracy and velocity....no complaints there,,,,
I may try a slightly tigher crimp
thanks all
atr

[Larry Gibson]

atr

As mentioned that load may be "toward the top" for loading density but it is not up there pressure wise. I use 10 gr of H4227 under the Lyman 257420 (mine are 68 gr fully dressed) out of my Savage M23B. It shoots extrememly well at 1850 fps out of the 20" barrel. I also use 11 gr of 5744 for about the same performance. I don't let the few gr of unburned powder bother me.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

Hard crimping on small boolits often leads to badly deformed boolits.

[35remington]

"The top of the charts" in 25-20 is a whopping 28,000 psi or so, which means the ordinary 9mm pistol cartridge develops quite a bit more pressure, as do the 357, 41 and 44 magnum pistol cartridges. Heck, the low pressure 45 ACP develops 21,000 psi and the case is not even well supported in the chamber, with some amount of brass hanging out in thin air with no steel behind it!

You're not much above that.

So lowish pressure is the culprit, but don't be discouraged as that often promotes better results with the lead bullet.

It harms nothing, including accuracy.

[9.3X62AL]

I generally don't let a few unburned kernels in the bore bother me, if everything else is running well. If the kernels start getting into the chamber, I patch out the bore a couple times. My 45-70 using WC-860 is the usual culprit in such cases, and upping the IMR-4198 booster charge usually resolves the issue. The 32-20 and 25-20 leverguns haven't presented that problem (yet) for me.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I never considered 4227 a very good powder for the 25-20. There are much better powders. If 4227 leaves unburned powder that means every shot uses a different energy level from the differing amounts of powder burned.

You can't expect that truth to provde the best accuracy. Yet other powders burn well in the 25-20. For full power and HV loads with cast, AA2015, 2200, 1680 and many others in that range work well and burn completely. Some of the faster pistol powders burn completely. That is where to start the accuracy search. This is not 1924 with very limited powder choices. BvT

[35remington]

"You can't expect that truth to provde the best accuracy."

Baron, a powder that does not burn completely can still give low extreme spreads in velocity and most excellent accuracy in the 25-20. The fact of the matter is that a great many cast bullet loads provide incomplete burning and yet very good accuracy in the 25-20, and I've tried quite a few. The 4198's, Reloder 7 and many others are examples of powders that incompletely burn even at full power levels yet shoot very well. The rub is that full power ain't very powerful, pressurewise.

Implying that if a load leaves unburned powder it is not burning consistently or is burning erratically is not the case.

Fast burning pistol powders that give comparable velocity to 4227 with plainbase bullets get poorer accuracy in my guns despite burning cleaner. In this case it's the higher pressures that are to blame. In my experience, had I a choice between a fast pistol powder and 4227 in a search for best accuracy with cast bullets in a 25-20, I'd select 4227 every time, and the faster the load went, the more likely 4227 is to outperform a fast pistol powder like Unique, 231 or similar. Even at 1100 fps speeds I find 4227 to be superior, accuracywise.

"Starting the accuracy search" only with powders that are clean burning in the 25-20 is likely to overlook a great many very suitable combinations.

Rather interestingly, when 4227 is loaded to levels where burning is more complete, accuracy goes away. This is quite common with cast bullets and powders such as 5744, 2400, 4759, 4198, 1680 and others.

So 4227 does not need to be singled out here. Implying that 4227 is incapable of good accuracy due to its burning characteristics is not borne out in my very considerable testing.

[Char-Gar]

I have been using 9/4227/90 grains GC in the 25-20 for 40 years and this load is not the top end. I have never felt the need to go higher. I have never noticed unburned powder in the barrel, but there may well have been, as I don't pay any attention to this. It would have been deleted from memory PDQ. If the bullets play follow the leader and the target reacts appropriately to the bullet, then who cares?

A tighter crimp might help, but I would not spend much time worrying about the powder in the barrel. Just clean the barrel, which I always do every time a rifle is fired.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The accuracy of powder charges which do not completely burn may be fine at short ranges, but they just don't play out at longer ranges. You wouldn't load your powder dead nuts on then randomly subtract tiny amounts and expect superior accuracy from your ammo.

That's why BR shooters use superior powder measures and carefully selected powders, they know. That's why 4198 can turn in occasional super groups in the 222 for example, but other newer powders are better these days.

We have some here who accept "good enough", or really need 25 yard loads. Maybe it is so. I never had my best accuracy results in the 25-20 with unburned powder in the barrel or much less than high velocity equivalent loads. And that is my finding. BvT

[Bullshop]

BVT
I agree with that but would add that when powder burns at below the pressure required for complete combustion that powder leaves far more fouling. Often time that additional fouling builds up quickly and accuracy suffers accordingly. Also often times that fouling can be hard to remove so might be mistaken for a completely different problem after a normal cleaning that was insufficient to remove it.

[Rocky Raab]

May I gently point out that unless we can always and without exception shoot 0.00" groups at all ranges, then we ALL settle for some degree of "good enough."

[Char-Gar]

Well, I guess I need to rethink my 25-20 load. I was thinking that popping coyotes at 100 to 150 yards with a levergun or pump in that caliber was good enough. I reckon that with no left over powder in the barrel, I could have hit them at 200 yards, maybe farther. They certainly would have been deader.

[atr]

I'm with Charger on this,,,,my load of 9 grains is very accurate at 100 yds...even with the powder residue. I usually fire between 20 and 50 rounds when I go to the range and I don't notice any accuracy drop off...
In my origonal post I was not questioning the accuracy of the load but the possible reasons for the powder residue.
I do think I will try tightning the crimp slightly....heretofore I have be shooting with un-crimped rounds ,,relying instead on the neck tension of the case.

[Bullshop]

Of course we have to comprise what we would like for what we get but that should never keep us from striving for better.
But how can anyone disagree that we all strive for as close to perfection as we can get? The elimination of problems that can cause inaccuracy is part of that process, true or false?
Accepting less than can be is fine for some but can never be accepted by others. For some the draw is in the search for perfection and not necessarily achieving perfection but the quest for it in itself..
There will always be those that are more than willing to accept less and can be quite satisfied and amazed if thier ammo goes bang.
If we choose to ignore certain aspects of the characteristic of how powder burns at different pressure and still get reasonably good results it does not mean that we should just across the board ignore those things.
The fact is burning powder smokless or black below its optimum pressure leaves more fouling than if burned at the correct pressure for that powder formulation.
If we find it so critical to be so precise in other area's of loading ammo why would it be OK to ignore this one?
I really dont think the Buba attitude that I done it this way so its right is the best choice in developing good loading technique.

[Char-Gar]

Bullshop, you are way over thinking this thread. Just a bunch of guys talking about H4227 in the 25-20. This isn't a less than/better than search for perfection Zen thingie. It isn't about compromise and character, it is just a little powder in the barrel. Must be cold up their about now..huh!:-)

[35remington]

I most frequently do have best accuracy results with powders that do not burn completely, most especially with plainbase bullets in the 25-20 as pressures are necessarily lower for good results. 4227 shines here, either the IMR or H version.

Just making most decidedly clear that avoiding a powder that does not "burn clean" in this caliber is most distinctly an error in my considerable experience. The 25-20 has caught my fancy like few other cartridges and my load testing for it has encompassed more variations in powders and loading techniques than anything else I've shot.

Demonstration, and pictures, upon request.

And my standards are the same for all loads, clean burning or not, high velocity or low velocity. And not at 25 yards, either.

I am a perfectionist when it comes to my 25-20 loads and accuracy and reliability in cold temperatures for hunting are my prime requirements. These requirements do not exclude powders that leave a little fouling in the barrel.

Questioning 4227's ability to produce good results will not go uncontested with me.

[Bullshop]

OK OK your right I may be a wee tiny little bit testy. I am sorry for that.
Its 35 below zero and we are getting about 4 hours of daylight per day now so it is building up.
If I promise to be good can I stay and play?
I even have some good loads for the 25/20.

[35remington]

Let's hear 'em!

BTW, I tried some of Bullshop Dan's Winchester bullets in both solid and HP form that he sent to John Kort (who kindly forwarded some of them to me) and they shot well over 6.0 grains 2400.

Which doesn't burn completely either. And yeah, I've run the point into the ground, but just sayin'.

Velocity was a hair over 1400 fps.

[35remington]

Bullshop's 25 caliber bullets for the 25-20 can be found on this page:

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/tbs_riflebullets22.htm

The ones I tried are listed as "Winchester."

Good results. The HP's expanded and fragmented down to well below the hollowpoint cavity and would undoubtedly be effective on varmints at this speed; way, way more so than any rimfire load.

[atr]

OK,,what I have learned from all this is that:

1. I may be able to eliminate some if not all the powder residue if I add a bit of a crimp and thereby helping the cartridge develop more pressure/burn.
2. Others have experienced similiar residue using H4227
3. I could ignore the residue since accuracy is not being impaired
4. Bullshop my not be getting enough vitiman D ... -:)

again ,,,,thank you all for you comments...its what makes this site informative and enjoyable
atr

[35remington]

Don't put too much faith in the crimp being decisively helpful. The bullet starts moving before the powder is up to full pressure.

You're still going to have unburned powder with the crimp.

[Bullshop]

It has dropped to 50 below zero. Cow milking today was an interesting experiance.
I think I have everything under control though, wana test me?
I will have to go dig out some 25/20 stuff. I remember one load I really like for making pillow stuffing out of crows.
Hear is an interesting tidbit that explains why crows. Our game regs say that ravens have no open season and that crows have no closed season.
If you look up the description of each you find that for crow it says see raven and for raven it says see crow. THERE ALL CROWS, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! oh oh I am ok now.
Anyways from the little marlin carbine a stiff charge of wc820 has the little Lyman 70gn boolit doing 2300 fps and when it hits a crow looks like the old cartoons where they get smacked naked. Is that sick and perverted or what!
I think I am going to look for some full spectrum lights next time I go to town. I am scaring the women and children.

[Bullshop]

About them Winchester molds, truly a real treasure.
I have two identical accept one is HP. They are the old style wish bone type and each is stamped 25/20. They are of course plain base likely being made before gas checks came into regular use. I think the solid nose runs about 85gn. I have tried them in a new Marlin 25/20 and they shot very good indeed. Also tried them in a 25 copper head and within the velocity range of a PB boolit also very good.
I have a trade in the works for a Savage 23D in 25/20 so hopefully will soon be back in the ranks.