How do you buy a gun while on vacation?

[Duckiller]

Wife and I just got home from a three month vacation to Colorado, Michigan and Tennessee and points in between. Based on a previous visit I knew that I could not buy a gun while in Colorado, I could have one shipped to a FFL dealer in CA. Visited several small rural gun shops in MI and they had no problem selling me a gun, but they didn't have anything I wanted. Gander Mtn. in Flint had a Marlin I wanted for a price I was willing to pay. When I tried to buy it I was told that on the list of states they will sell to CA just went from "YES" to "NO". In fact the change was made in pencil. A 75 year old cousin went in to see if she could buy it for me for my 68th birthday and we were accused to trying to make a straw purchase. Friends checked with the MI State Police and they said there was no reason I couldn't purchase a long gun in MI if I could pass the background check. Gander Mtn policy is we don't sell to second class citizens from CA, Fla, and Vermont ( all I could remember from the list an employee showed me. They also would not ship to a FFL dealer in CA. My local FFL dealer has recently received guns from Gander Mtn. Williams (sight people) would not deliver to me in MI but would ship to a FFL. Another dealer would sell to me, but unfortunately neither Williams nor Gun Barn had the gun I wanted. Left Michigan unhappy and continued trip. Sign on Freeway near Oak Ridge Tenn. said "Frontier Guns 1/2 mi off Freeway" . Went in and to avoid any problems showed them my CA driver license. Owner promptly informed me that he could not sell me a gun and because he couldn't keep up with CA law he couldn't ship to a FFL. Since he didn't have the gun I wanted I wasn't too unhappy. Continued on home avoiding all gun store to keep from experiencing further disappointment. Today I went to a local gun shop that I occasionally check out and the owner told me I could only buy a gun in my State of residence, but his explanation makes me think he knows not of what he speaks.
My bottom line is can I buy a gun in a State other than California? What does Federal law say? I am not too concerned about CA law. Any gun I buy out of state may never make it into CA and I may convince SWMBO to move out of CA.
The trip was very enjoyable and we may do it again next year. Pappy's Rifle Shop in Alanson is well worth the visit. Not many guns but very nice people. Didn't discuss buying a gun because he had nothing I wanted when I was there. Area is off the main road and a different topography. KY had the most dead deer along the freeway. Drivers on I75 are really hard on deer. May have to move there to go deer hunting.
It was very frustrating to be told that you can't buy something because of where you live. The gun I was trying to get is not banned in CA, It is a Marlin Model1895 with a 26" octagon barrel.

[The Double D]

You are lucky they didn't call ATF and have you and your cousin arrested for attempting a straw purchase.


If you want a clear and correct answer you need to write a letter to ATF&E and ask. Be brief and ask one question, something like this.


"Dear Sir,

I live in California, what are the requirements for me to buy a gun in Michigan?

Sincerely yours"

[Duckiller]

Do not believe we attempted a straw purchase. Do not believe federal law prohibits anyone buying gifts only prohibits you buying for someone that can't pass the background check, not my case.

[runfiverun]

it's the whole "i don't wanna deal with california thing".
here i can buy rifles and shotguns in neighboring [bordering]states but have to have handguns shipped to a ffl.
if buing from a shop.
if from private it's cash and carry.
most guy's wanna mail them to an ffl, but could mail them directly to me when buying privately.

[waksupi]

For my area of interest, I always carried copies of my 03 C&R license when traveling. It won't cover a lot of guns, but does any interesting old odd balls I would come across.

[ReloaderFred]

The California Penal Code says that residents of California are not allowed to purchase firearms outside the state, period. If you do a search on the CADOJ website, you'll find the quote.

It's just another of the reasons I moved from there 16 years ago........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Tazman1602]

Wife and I just got home from a three month vacation to Colorado, Michigan and Tennessee and points in between. Based on a previous visit I knew that I could not buy a gun while in Colorado, I could have one shipped to a FFL dealer in CA. Visited several small rural gun shops in MI and they had no problem selling me a gun, but they didn't have anything I wanted. Gander Mtn. in Flint had a Marlin I wanted for a price I was willing to pay. When I tried to buy it I was told that on the list of states they will sell to CA just went from "YES" to "NO". In fact the change was made in pencil. A 75 year old cousin went in to see if she could buy it for me for my 68th birthday and we were accused to trying to make a straw purchase. Friends checked with the MI State Police and they said there was no reason I couldn't purchase a long gun in MI if I could pass the background check. Gander Mtn policy is we don't sell to second class citizens from CA, Fla, and Vermont ( all I could remember from the list an employee showed me. They also would not ship to a FFL dealer in CA. My local FFL dealer has recently received guns from Gander Mtn. Williams (sight people) would not deliver to me in MI but would ship to a FFL. Another dealer would sell to me, but unfortunately neither Williams nor Gun Barn had the gun I wanted. Left Michigan unhappy and continued trip. Sign on Freeway near Oak Ridge Tenn. said "Frontier Guns 1/2 mi off Freeway" . Went in and to avoid any problems showed them my CA driver license. Owner promptly informed me that he could not sell me a gun and because he couldn't keep up with CA law he couldn't ship to a FFL. Since he didn't have the gun I wanted I wasn't too unhappy. Continued on home avoiding all gun store to keep from experiencing further disappointment. Today I went to a local gun shop that I occasionally check out and the owner told me I could only buy a gun in my State of residence, but his explanation makes me think he knows not of what he speaks.
My bottom line is can I buy a gun in a State other than California? What does Federal law say? I am not too concerned about CA law. Any gun I buy out of state may never make it into CA and I may convince SWMBO to move out of CA.
The trip was very enjoyable and we may do it again next year. Pappy's Rifle Shop in Alanson is well worth the visit. Not many guns but very nice people. Didn't discuss buying a gun because he had nothing I wanted when I was there. Area is off the main road and a different topography. KY had the most dead deer along the freeway. Drivers on I75 are really hard on deer. May have to move there to go deer hunting.
It was very frustrating to be told that you can't buy something because of where you live. The gun I was trying to get is not banned in CA, It is a Marlin Model1895 with a 26" octagon barrel.

Hey Duck!

Good to see you made it back, how's the pups doing?

IGNORE the poster below your first post, he doesn't know what he's talking about. According to MY BATFE agent a straw purchase is the purchase of a gun by another party in order to get around the law -- BUT there is NOTHING ILLEGAL about ANYONE buying a gun for dad, mom, granpa, gramma, your nephew, etc AS A GIFT (handguns excluded). The BATFE would LOVE to close this loophole but it aint gonna happen. This is how you can get around the laws in commifornia.

If you need a gun and I can figure out the laws for California, as always I'll order one and you get it at 10% above my cost plus shipping.

You can still get guns in CA, it just isn't as easy anymore, let me know if I can help you out.

Art

PS -- Tell you wife we said "Hi" and next time you're up maybe we'll have a pen we can throw our "pack" into in order to get you guys into the house for coffee!!

[Tazman1602]

Carpola. NOT TRUE. Read my post to Duck about this you are uninformed on the subject sir...........

Art


You are lucky they didn't call ATF and have you and your cousin arrested for attempting a straw purchase.


If you want a clear and correct answer you need to write a letter to ATF&E and ask. Be brief and ask one question, something like this.


"Dear Sir,

I live in California, what are the requirements for me to buy a gun in Michigan?

Sincerely yours"

[Tazman1602]

You did not. You are correct. See my post Jeff (GOD I hope I got your name right that time Duck................)

Art


Do not believe we attempted a straw purchase. Do not believe federal law prohibits anyone buying gifts only prohibits you buying for someone that can't pass the background check, not my case.

[Houndog]

Your californicate residency is the problem. I live in Tennessee and have bought several LONG GUNS out of state with no problem. I just have to do the federal background check in the state I purchase the gun in. If I buy a handgun, I MUST have it shipped to a Tennessee FFL, but that usually just costs a $10 handling fee plus the $10 dollar background check at my local gun shop. Since californicate is broke and you folks have governor moonbeam coming along with his democrap AG, your taxes probably will skyrocket while his regheme will move you ever closer to socialisim. MAYBE relocating isn't a bad idea IF you are in a situation to where you can. There's a bunch of gun and people friendly states from where you live to where I live that would be glad to have you.

[shotman]

for some info there are a few states that have deal that they can sell a LONG gun to a resident of certain states Wv can sell to ohio ky va but not pa
hand guns have to be shipped to ffl in your state. I can sell a gun to a resident of any state but have to ship to a ffl in that state.
OK now here is the problem What happens if you dont pass the nics check???? Thats why I dont sell to non ffl you have give him the money and he sends it and copy. If I would do it I would know the guy or run a check BEFORE I sent the ffl
a few stores will run the check for a long gun but hold it for 3 to 5 days
I dont know CA laws but thought the laws passed were to stop you from buying a gun in NV and az bet reloader fred is right

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Make life easy. Get a couple of copies of your FFL's license. Find what you want, pay for it, get it shipped to the ffl for transfer. He does the nics, paperwork, etc. BvT

[beagle]

Duckiller...come on to KY. We'll welcome you. Last weekend, I went on a 100 mile trip and saw 5 road killed deer on the way and encountered one more that jumped the car in front of me....attempting to be a road kill. We got plenty of deer and are getting a pretty good elk herd.

WWs can still be obtained from tire dealers and our gun laws are reasonable and the living is good.

Nothing like shooting off the back patio or front porch too for that matter./beagle

[mooman76]

The state I live in and 4 other states have signed some kind of pact agreement. Ut, AZ, NV, ID and another state I don't remember. We can purchase long guns in these other states and don't have to ship them, we P/U immediately. Just have to do the background check as usual. I guess CA didn't want to participate.

[The Double D]

Carpola. NOT TRUE. Read my post to Duck about this you are uninformed on the subject sir...........

Art

Tazman,

Write the letter to ATF and see what they say.

Never ever accept a verbal legal interpretation in the field from any Law Enforcement Officer, get it in writing. It's called CYA.


Think about it, do you really think given the circumstances, that Duckiller is going to be able to convince a jury that his Cousin just happened along to buy the same gun Duckiller was refused, so the Cousin could give it to Duckiller as a gift. Amazing coincidence .


Is it even legal for a Person in Michigan to transfer a gun to a person form California-FTF?

[ReloaderFred]

Here is the official link to California's gun laws: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/

Any dealer shipping an "approved" firearm to California must first obtain an approval, and shipping number, from the Calif. Dept. of Justice, prior to shipping said firearm. It's also illegal for a California resident to purchase a firearm outside the state of California. Once a firearm is legally transfered to a Calif. FFL dealer, it then becomes a California sale, since it will be subject to all the approvals, fees and taxes of the state of Calif.

These laws have nothing to do with ATF, since they are strictly California laws, and apply to all transactions involving firearms for residents of the state. They prohibited private transactions about 20 years ago between individuals, and even transfers between family members are supposed to go through a "state and federally licensed dealer", which means a Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) must be filled out and the waiting period adhered to, before a private person can transfer a firearm to another private person. Of course there are fees involved from both the state and the dealer and the dealer has to take possession of the firearm during the waiting period.

We have many California residents come here to Oregon and attempt to buy rifles and shotguns, but no dealer is allowed to sell to them pursuant to California law.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Here is the official link to California's gun laws: http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/

Any dealer shipping an "approved" firearm to California must first obtain an approval, and shipping number, from the Calif. Dept. of Justice, prior to shipping said firearm. It's also illegal for a California resident to purchase a firearm outside the state of California. Once a firearm is legally transfered to a Calif. FFL dealer, it then becomes a California sale, since it will be subject to all the approvals, fees and taxes of the state of Calif.

WOW, I bet this makes CA residents much safer than the rest of us not living in CA <sarcasm>

GUN OWNERS, take your money that they will eventually collect as taxes and leave that state !!!
Jon

[The Double D]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

[spqrzilla]

The problem that is identified in the OP's post where he describes his cousin attempting to buy a gun for him as "a gift" is that it is indeed illegal.

If it was truly a gift, then there is no straw purchase. If money had changed hands between the OP and the cousin, then it would be a straw purchase.

However, even if not a straw purchase, it is illegal for the cousin to transfer the gun to the OP as they are not residents of the same state.

ReloaderFred correctly describes why few FFL's want to deal with shipping a firearm to a California FFL.

[Duckiller]

Reloader Fred is about right regarding family transfers. Transfer in the same generation, ie brother to brother or brother to sister must go through a dealer . transfers up or down a generation do not require a dealer. Fill out and file a DOJ form listing any number of guns and send in with $19.00 and by return mail the DOJ will send you a letter allowing you to give guns to one of your children. Just did it,

[Springfield]

There is no reason NOT to send a gun to California. Before you do you have to go online and get approval for the person and the gun. If it isn't approved, don't send it. If it is, no problem. Unless you are too lazy to do the extra 5 minutes of computer time. I buy guns from out of state about 3-4 times a year with no problem. I just don't do it in person in the other state. California is pretty big, takes a while to even GET out of state. And nothing in Nevada interests me, so I have to go to Arizona or Oregon. And Arizona is too hot, usually.

[S.R.Custom]

...Any dealer shipping an "approved" firearm to California must first obtain an approval, and shipping number, from the Calif. Dept. of Justice, prior to shipping said firearm...

Indeed, the shipping FFL holder must be a registered participant in the CFLC.

That said, Salmon River Custom is such a registered participant. If anyone here from California sees an interesting toy while 'on the road' and the seller refuses to ship to CA, you can have it shipped here, and I will in turn be willing to perform the necessary work to get it legally shipped to California. Yes, there is added shipping and a nominal fee for yours truly, but it sure beats having to say 'no' to that gotta-have hunting implement...

PM me for details.

Cheers,

Mike

[spqrzilla]

Reloader Fred is about right regarding family transfers. Transfer in the same generation, ie brother to brother or brother to sister must go through a dealer . transfers up or down a generation do not require a dealer. Fill out and file a DOJ form listing any number of guns and send in with $19.00 and by return mail the DOJ will send you a letter allowing you to give guns to one of your children. Just did it,
You are refering to state law, and the California state DOJ I assume.

[Duckiller]

Yes. I am going to have to talk to a lawyer and see if the great state of California can control what I can and cannot do when I am out of the state. If adjacent states want to enter into agreements with Cal. and limit the income of their residents that is some one else's problem.

[MtGun44]

Ah, California. Great place to be from.

Bill

[spqrzilla]

Yes. I am going to have to talk to a lawyer and see if the great state of California can control what I can and cannot do when I am out of the state. If adjacent states want to enter into agreements with Cal. and limit the income of their residents that is some one else's problem.

If you are a non-licensee and attempt to purchase a long gun out of state, it is Federal law that states that both states' laws must permit the transaction.

Another advantage of the C&R license ...

[runfiverun]

wow only 19 dollars to transfer a gun to your child, i wonder what the fee is to import and transfer christmas presents from santa clause.
so the law basically reads you can't have this, you can't have that, you can't even go get it cheaper somewhere else. and anything you got,get,or find must be registered or held onto till we decide to let you have it or not.
are the rules like that for reloading stuff too???

[MtGun44]

Maybe one day we can go back to the pre-68 days when a gun and a hammer were
treated the same - nobody's business where, when or how you purchased it.

You younger members probably can't imagine that in those days you just sent off a money order
and next week a hangun or rifle arrived in the mail.

Bill

[scb]

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

See question 11a.

[spqrzilla]

scb, did you read the instructions to 11a?

[crabo]

I love being from Texas. I was in North Dakota and traded guns back with my BIL. I had had his guide gun for the last year. I found one in South Dakota with the internet, 3 miles off my route home, stopped, bought it and was on my way in 20 minutes.

That's the way it ought to be.

[scb]

scb, did you read the instructions to 11a?

Yes I did.

[Duckiller]

At the time I started this post I also had sent an e-mail to Gander Mtn expressing so displeasure with my gun buying experience in their store. Late Monday I got a polite reply from the Flint store Manager. He explained how I should be able to purchase a gun by having it shipped to a CA FFL. As I understand what he explained to me, because of CA law Ca citizens can only get guns from CA FFL. Anyway after a pleasant discussion I asked him if the Marlin was still available. He said he would check and call me back. He called back and said he had taken it off the rack and put my name on it if I wanted it. I said I did want it and the check will soon be in the mail. Had my FFL dealer send paper work and Gander Mtn understands and is willing to work with CA law and CA DOJ. My check will in the mail tomorrow and I will fill out paperwork at dealer. Should get gun before Christmas. Wish I could have started process while I was in Mich. but I couldn't have completed paperwork until I returned to CA.
This along with recent election results may get me to work harder on SWMBO to convince her that we need to move to another state fairly soon.

[S.R.Custom]

Excellent. I like it when cooler (and more knowledgeable) heads prevail.

[ReloaderFred]

Me, too.

Fred