Lyman Foster Recipe Issues

[SmoothBore870]

So I am new to the board and I tried to perform a search to answer the following questions but I was unsuccessful. I am trying to put together a equal to or better than factory accuracy and precision 12 gauge foster 2 3/4" slug...imagine that. But I am having trouble both with casting and with the Lyman recipe that I am using. I have tried the Fiochi 7mm and Remington 1/4" basewad loads with longshot and blue dot respectively. It says to use 1xBPGS, 1x1/2" Hard Card and 3x1/8" nitro cards but when I put them in, but I can only use 1 nitro card and still get 2.4" overall length with a roll crimp, what gives?
First, my slugs are coming out with visible layers in them, I made adjustments to make my mold closer to the spout and that helped some but not all.
Second, my slugs are coming out with a crusty coating not them, I am using marvelux.
Third, the above issue about the column being too tall, not allowing proper overall length.

Any takers?

[mini14]

ok to sum it up..
1. you have visible layers on your slugs.
2. you have crust on your slugs.
3. you are having length issues building your column.

[SmoothBore870]

You got it. The "crust" is a blueish color and seems to be dross, it comes off with a fingernail scratch.

The thing with the column height is that according to the published Lyman load, it would be too long to fit in a properly crimped hull at 2.4 to 2.45". This isn't a big issue since my gun can take up to 3" shells, but I wanted to see if anyone else had similar troubles.

[mini14]

Whats your lead source?

I can't help you with crimps, i justed started casting and loading slugs and i;m not getting good crimps.

maybe the powder charge is affecting your column height. Like an idiot i didn't order any nitro cards so my column is not correct either. I'm loading lee 7/8.

I'm interested in what the othr members have to say about your questions.

[SmoothBore870]

I am using the Lyman 12g Foster mold with pure lead from rotometals. The column is what makes me the most perplexed since I am using published lyman loads for the respective hulls, Fiochi 7mm and Remington 1/4" basewad hulls. They are longshot and blue dot powder respectively and then: the gas seal, a 1/2" hard card and 3 nitros at 1/8" each, but I can only put in one nitro card and still get a 2.4" final length. The crimping issues I had initially were remedied with switching from a hand drill to a press with a hull vise I made using a toggle clamp, similar to the Ballistic Products version.

[mini14]

I'm just a noob but i'd bet that lead needs some tin in it to get better fillout. The tin releases the surface tension in the lead from what i've read. I'm using wheel weights and my slugs look good for my first pour. Maybe you could get some wheel weights or bar tin to add to your pure.

[SmoothBore870]

I was wanting to use pure lead so that it would succumb to the pressure behind it to fill out the bore with pressure from the wad column. If that is hog wash someone tell me. I am planning on getting some WWs later this month, I am expecting Santa to bring me some lube/sizing tools and molds for 200 g SWC for my kimber so I might try some WWs for slugs then.

[longbow]

It would help if you posted a photo of your slugs but from your description, it sounds like you are casting with either lead or mould or maybe both too cool.

As for the Lyman Foster slug, I have little good to say about it. Mine casts at 0.705" so way under size and yes if it is pure lead it will obturate to fill the bore. That is in my view a large part of the problem because there is enough slop for the slug to skew in the bore as it swells up.

I recovered lots of slugs from soft snow and they were definitely bore size but the nose and skirt on each was different due to uncontrolled expansion to fill the bore.

I tried paper patching which helped some but accuracy was still poor. In fact I have gotten considerably better accuracy from round balls that Lyman Foster slugs. Not to say it can't be done but I certainly have not been successful.

I suspect you would do better with a Lee Drive Key Slug or Lyman sabot slug.

Can't say for sure but I am betting that wheelweights in an undersize Foster slug will not shoot well. Paper patching to bring it up to bore diameter might help.

You might do a search for SluggerDoug's post on how he made the Lyman slug perform but he put in a lot of work and in the end having the slug bore size to start is the best way to improve accuracy.

I have gotten some good (well, decent) results from home cast Fosters but they were either bore size or fit into a shotcup and were tight in the bore.

In my view, good fit to the bore and good gas seal are the most important issues.

Longbow

[mini14]

how tight should they be in the bore longbow? i tried to push my 7/8 oz lee through the bore and i couldn't, its in a win AA cup

[turbo1889]

Wad Column Height Question:

If you read very carefully in one of the older Lyman manuals you will find that in the fine print it says to trim 1/4" off the end of hulls for loading that particular slug with their load data where you are roll crimping them. Two 1/8" nitro cards make a 1/4" of difference in the wad column stack height. I suspect you did not discover that little tid-bit and that is why you are confused by their load data. However, I would suggest you simply ignore this and continue on your merry way and not trim the ends of the hulls. In fact I would suggest you find yourself some 3" hulls of the same construction as the 2-3/4" you have been using and use the same exact load data and maybe even add a nitro card or two to the stack if you find this gives you a crimp height you desire. You can never have too long or too heavily constructed wad-column when it comes to slugs. The better the foundation you put under the slug the better potential such a load has for accuracy and not only that but the shorter the jump between the end of the hull and the main bore after the rest of the chamber and the forcing cone the better the potential for accuracy.

In addition there is absolutely no reason to mess up good hulls by trimming off the ends. That is what one does to hulls that have been used so many times the ends are frayed and cracked in order to keep using them. Personally, I almost always buy 3-1/2" hulls when I buy new 12ga. hulls. I use them in that length for as long as I can and then I trim them down to 3" length and use them as long as I can that way and then I trim them down to 2-3/4" and use them as long as I can that way and then they go down to 2-1/2", 2" and sometimes even shorter then that if I can figure out a useful load.

The Lyman Foster Slug Mold:

Run the mold hot:
----- Use a hot plate to heat up the mold. That would be the medium temp on the knob on old good hot plates with real coil type good heating elements and completely up to the high setting on the newer junkier “new-tech” hot plates.
----- Keep the base pin hotter then the melting temp of the lead so that the lead around the pin is the last portion of the slug to solidify. This is accomplished by keeping the pin on a hot plate run full out on high setting while casting and using a holder arrangement so that the metal tip of the pin can be set on the plate when it is not in the mold without the wooden hand getting so hot it starts to smoke and stink.


Run the pure lead HOT:
----- Gold sheen hot to be specific. When you heat up pure or nearly pure lead it slowly changes color as it gets hotter and hotter. First is the dull grey which turns to a deep blue grey as more heat is applied and then takes on a slight gold-ish sheen. If one continues to heat beyond the gold sheen you will start to get a very soft almost undetectable orange-ish glow which appears to radiate from the core of the melt and then if you heat it still further you can make it all glow a dull orange and flow with a crusty oatmeal consistency that reminds you of a lava flow from a volcano but glows the dull orange instead of red. The correct temperature for the Lyman foster slug mold is just enough heat to move beyond the deep blue and start to get a light gold-ish sheen. Less is not hot enough and more is too hot.
----- If you have both your mold and lead hot enough it should take at least a full second if not two for the sprue puddle to harden. After taking another second to cut the sprue you should then be able to twist and pull the base pin and it should almost be too soon and the lead that forms the slugs skirt should still be slightly soft but not liquid and the pin should slip out like being pulled from a block of butter without any lead sticking too it. If you are not water dropping you will have to wait a few seconds more before you release the slug from the mold because otherwise it will still be soft enough to dent or oval the base if dropped onto a soft stack of towels. Water dropping is a good idea with this mold, with pure lead it will not harden the slug and will prevent dents and dings and allow a faster casting pace when you are running the mold and alloy this hot which is the way one gets perfect slugs from this mold.
----- If you are using a bottom pore pot then float kitty litter on the top of the pot to considerably reduce the amount of your pure lead that is oxidized by the air and thus rendered useless and hazardous waste (lead oxide easily becomes airborne dust which is easily inhaled and more easily absorbed by the body then regular un-oxidized lead and pure lead reacts much more vigorously with air then alloyed lead). This can also be done if you are ladle casting if you use one of those foundry type bottom pore ladles that has the tea-pot type nozzle built into the side of the ladle that feeds off the bottom.
----- Have Erik at hollowpointmold.com expand the body of the mold to bore diameter (usually about 0.730”) and that will get you a long way towards your goal of being able to build accurate loads with it. In addition, this will slightly thicken the skirt which will also improve the molds casting behavior.

[turbo1889]

Q. ~ How tight should they be in the bore?

A. ~ Slug your bore and add 0.002" that would be perfect. But usually 73 caliber on the mark works pretty well for almost all 12ga. guns at least if we are talking about full bore slugs not inside a wad or sabot.

[mini14]

i measured the bore with a caliper and its .730

[SmoothBore870]

Longbow, My camera is not focusing well enough to properly display the layers, but it is pretty much like a rock formation, seemingly smooth on the sides, but there are layers present. I am without my calipers or I would mic a slug to check the diameter but I assume mine too are that size. Are factory rifled slugs that far underbore too? I have the lyman casting manual coming so hopefully that may fix some fundamental issues I may be having but I have the lead at full throttle on the lee pot and I have been trying to stay a quick pace with the mold.

Turbo1889,Thanks for the advice. I am a little confused though with the trimming comment. If I were to trim the hull more, and use the same wad column then that would leave the slug completely exposed with no ability to roll crimp, even worse than the current predicament. I have read a line in the current Lyman manual about trimming but it was not in context to this specific load I don't think. The lead does have a goldish sheen, it's good to know that's normal! I will look into the water dropping to make my technique a little faster and thanks for the link for expanding the body, I will definitely look into that. How much does it increase the weight of the slug and are their much changes to the loads?

Who knows, I guess I'll have to use the old faithful High Velocity Sluggers for one more year.

[longbow]

Well, I can't add much if anything to turbo's post, he kinda covered it all.

I agree with casting hot. I have been criticized for commenting on casting hot but in all honesty I have never had a problem when I crank up the heat. I often cool moulds with water (or sometimes snow) so the sprue puddle will solidify. Heat generally solves fill out problems. Do be careful with water around molten lead!

Having said that, I cast on a propane burner and do not use a thermometer, I cast "by eye". When the lead looks right (turbo got it with gold sheen) and the mould is hot enough to take a few seconds for the sprue puddle to harden I go and cast as fast as I can (with quality) and cool moulds as often as needed.

Crude by some standards I agree but it has worked well for me for about 40 years so it is good enough for me.

As for size, I don't know for sure but I suspect the Lyman slugs are the size they are (usually around 0.705" though I seem to remember someone posting a size of 0.690") because long ago they used to sell a rifling die to swage rifling onto the slugs. My thought is that the slugs were cast undersize then rifling swaged onto them bringing them up to bore size or near bore size.

0.010" "ribs" "rifling" whatever would bring a 0.705" slug up to 0.725" ~ makes one think!

Maybe someone that has or has used a rifling die can correct me if I am wrong here.

SluggerDoug "knurled" his slugs using a helical gear to bring them up to bore diameter.

So the short answer as turbo says is bore size to maybe a couple thou over.

A good fit of slug and a good wad column will go a long way to giving the slug a good launch.

Hmmmm, for someone with not much to add that's a lot of words. Oops!

Longbow

[220swiftfn]

One other idea. If you're using a wad column, how much wad pressure are you trying? (Don't know what press you're using, easy to tell on a MEC) If you're just dropping the wad column in with no pressure, it'll be long, IIRC, you should have about 20-50 pounds wad pressure.


Dan

[SmoothBore870]

A rifling swage would be awesome if they still made it or if one was out there floating around in someones garage. If anyone that reads this has one or knows of one in existence let me know.

Next time I load my slugs I will use my Sizemaster to set the weight, I used a dowel to press them in by hand, certainly over 20 lbs of pressure, but I doubt any more than 30.