Troubles with .25-35 WIN!

[Three44s]

I just ran some .30-30 cases ...... through a recently acquired Lyman .25-35 FL die and I have a problem.

I used Imperial sizing wax ......

What I am getting is a bunch of little folds (for lack of a better term) right at the junction of the shoulder and the neck of the converted case.

Basically these folds look like a bunch of tiny neck splits aligned vertically around the circumference of the neck.

I have only done three cases ......... the first one turned out fine but the next two are as described above .......

.................I don't have ton of this brass ...... so I am in turtle mode at this point.

I am going to spend some time super cleaning this FL die as it's a used set I just acquired ........ I am old to reloading ...... but NEW to loading the .25-35 Win!

Your thoughts would be appreciated!


Happy Thanksgiving and best regards!


Three 44s

[NHlever]

Going from .30 caliber to .25 caliber in one shot may be a bit much. You may have to scrounge / modify a 7mm die of some sort to use first. Beyond that I might try annealing the necks of the 30-30 cases before resizing. Midway does often have 25-35 brass in stock to save all the hassle, but spends more money. :D

[Bent Ramrod]

They sound like lube dents to me. The neck/shoulder juncture is the place they would wind up at, as the lube squeezed off the neck has nowhere else to go but "in" when the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the die. Cut the quantity of Imperial on your cases just a tad (the stuff is good enough so you just need a tiny amount) and the marks should go away.

Another method is to gradually run the case further and further into the die, looking for buildup of lube as the neck is sized down, and wiping the buildup away as it shows itself.

The .25-35 is a low enough pressure case to just iron out most dents on firing without seriously weakening anything. Unless they are seriously folded, they should press straight out.

[Three44s]

Going from .30 caliber to .25 caliber in one shot may be a bit much. You may have to scrounge / modify a 7mm die of some sort to use first. Beyond that I might try annealing the necks of the 30-30 cases before resizing. Midway does often have 25-35 brass in stock to save all the hassle, but spends more money. :D


"too big a shot" ....... "modifying an intermediate size die" ...... those things are all floating around in my head.

...... buying from Midway ....... I had not checked availability as they tend to be "seasonal" ........ I'll check!

Thank you

Three 44s

[Three44s]

They sound like lube dents to me. The neck/shoulder juncture is the place they would wind up at, as the lube squeezed off the neck has nowhere else to go but "in" when the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the die. Cut the quantity of Imperial on your cases just a tad (the stuff is good enough so you just need a tiny amount) and the marks should go away.

Another method is to gradually run the case further and further into the die, looking for buildup of lube as the neck is sized down, and wiping the buildup away as it shows itself.

The .25-35 is a low enough pressure case to just iron out most dents on firing without seriously weakening anything. Unless they are seriously folded, they should press straight out.


Lube dents .........

These are more defined than what I am used to with lube but I can say as I've never done this particular conversion. So I am not ruling this out ..... it would be the very easiest thing to "fix" if that's the problem.

Running the case in multiple passes ........

This would help fix the lube dents and give a more gradual sizing process ....... yes.

Low pressure round ...........

I had given some thought to that as well. So far I've only done 3 casings and even though it's some work for set up and switch to another job ..... I am thinking on converting a very small sample and then try fire forming them with a light load even for the .25-35 Win and see what happens.

If these are genuine neck splits then I am going to wreck some brass so I am keeping the brass count low this way.

The .25-35 has a much reduced diameter at the shoulder and quite a bit more body taper than the parent case (.30-30) and here's is my current "crazy idea":

I poured over my manuals and looked at cartridge drawings with what I have on hand for other dies ........

My idea is to start the body diameter reduction with the mouth of another die ..... right now the .222 or .223 sizer comes to mind ......

I might try one or two and see if this helps.

I realize that the neck is where those folds or future splits show up but my thinking is that there is a lot of brass going into that area and that making the shoulder reduction more gradual would help and then look at a 7mm Waters die (I don't have one yet) to help with the neck reduction.



Thanks all for your help!!!!


Does anybody have any ideas or experience with this conversion?


Best regards

Three 44s

[rhbrink]

Are those once fired 30-30 if so then annealing would help a lot, if the 30-30 cases have been fired several times then I would bet a lot that annealing will probably solve the problem plus what everyone says about steps and a little at a time.

[405]

Midway shows them available at 23 per 50....seems plenty cheap to me. The solution hiding in plain sight.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1390109095

[9.3X62AL]

P.O. Ackley in his "Handbook For Shooters And Reloaders" commented on reforming 30/30 WCF brass to 25/35 Win--stating that postwar brass wouldn't reform properly. I've used Win 25/35 brass exclusively, since proving to myself that reforming the stuff didn't work for me. RCBS had a form die set that allegedly did a better job of this, but its cost was higher than that of 300 cases last time I looked.

[shotman]

your just starting to find a big problem they also wont chamber in most guns with out turning case neck I tried it and trashed the 30-30 brass How many are you looking for ? I think I have 100 up in reloading room got several years back at midway you are doing same as making 243 out of 308 they wont chamber either

[beagle]

There was an article in either Handloader magazine or the Fouling shot within the last year I think on forming .25/35 cases. It has to be done in gradual steps as has been mentioned above and the lube wiped.

One thing I recall was that WW cases were a must have for the project due to consistent neck thickness.

I've formed a bunch but I get the wrinkles also and haven't messed with it lately to be able to try the theory.

I'd think annealing would help also./beagle

[35remington]

The seating die is "looser" than the FL die, and starting the sizing in this die may be beneficial to reduce neck folds when forming cases.

You may not be able to form it fully as the crimp shoulder will start to turn in the case mouth if the die is turned to touch the shellholder, but you may be able to form it most of the way while finally completing it in the FL sizer.

This may help reduce the folding. Use at least a moderate amount of lube to prevent sticking....you'll have to run a fine line between enough lube to prevent sticking while not so much as to cause dents.

This is why a two step sizing process may be beneficial as mentioned above.

[Three44s]

My brass is ranging from free to costing under $.06 so I am willing to put with a little jazz.

I am sure I'll get some proper casings so I can get off and running sooner.

Annealing is certainly in the cards as all of these are fired casings ....... most are once fired but few are Winchester brand if any. The once fired are coming from a friend who does not reload but shoots his .30-30 a fair amount ..... then gives me the casings.

Turning the necks is no problem. I'm anal about having some brass to turn off to get uniform necks (at least with cartridges that respond to it ....... a mid 20's Model 94 may not fit that mold however ..... LOL!)

The idea on trying the seating die for a looser first pass is something I had never thought of ...... very good! Thanks much 35remington!!

After I started this thread I went back and ran five more casings and did multiple passes with the FL die. I worked off lube and re-lubed so that build ups in the shoulder area would be minimized. The "folds" got less pronounced and I do now believe that lube build up is partially to blame but stuffing so much brass in to a limited space.

I am up to eight re-formed casings now so it's time to try some loading and see how they smooth out the miniscule wrinkles (after a trip through the case trimmer and then the outside neck turner.

Thanks for the help!

Three 44s

[Bret4207]

I've made a bit of 25/35 from 30-30, I got the same wrinkles if I got too much lube. THey pretty much shoot out. Proper brass is lots mo'better.

[Three44s]

" ........ proper brass is lot's mo'better"

I'm quite sure you're right Bret ...... !

I'll get some "good stuff" soon but I've got the itch now ....... you know, drop a log in front of me ...... and I'll build a chain saw just to cut it out of the way? LOL!!

My Forester outside neck turner is already set for .25 cal as I have been doing some .270 over to .25-06 so all I have to do is change the length on it (if I have the right collet).

My main concern in starting this thread was because I was wanting to avoid cracking the brass ...... now that it seems those marks are lube created ........ thus more cosmetic ..... I am willing to proceed on a few more ......

Three 44s

[the other DWS]

I started reading this thread because I'm in the initial (planning and aquisition) stages of creating a wildcat cartridge/rifle for single shot offhand target matches. I'll be using a custom Ruger #3 action to build a schuetzen style rifle and chambered for a .26-35. it will be a 6.5/.260 based on the .25-35 case. It will use a fast twist barrel and be designed specifically for the old CruiseMissle/LeadZepplen heavy 6.5 some of you guys developed years ago on the shooters/talk.

Your resizing problems reminded me very much of the headaches I had years ago converting 308s to the 6.5x308 wildcat the Redding-Carmichael project. I'd had a 308 BLR rebarreled with a nice mint 6.5 Arisaka barrel (fast twist, hardened bore and unique rifling--I like'em) and rechambered for the cartridge--using the same 6.5 mould for CB.
{FWIW With a little creativity the BLR can accept slightly modified M-14 20 round mags for a cowboy assault rifle}.
Anyway I had MAJOR headaches reforming the bucket of ex-mil brass without getting the fluted shoulders, It took a combination of annealing and multi-stage resizings.
My first shots with mild to mid range loads were frustrating and down right scary. very high pressure signs. the rifle would not extract/eject. cases had to be rodded out with a very firm hit. and the primers were not only flat but pushed back into the firing pin hole just shy of piercing. I had to both inside and outside turn the necks to get them to work. once that was done the same loads worked through the action like they were greased. Working with commercial 308 brass was a bit better, sizing took less effort. 2 stage resizing and just enough outside turning to clean them up. When Rem brought out the .260 Rem which was made with almost exactly the same specs as the Redding/Carmichael wildcat. I darn near got down on my knees to give thanks.

[Three44s]

the other DWS,

"........... a cowboy assault rifle ........ "

I'll remember that one!!!!! LOL!

I remember running some military .308 match into .243 ....... that was priceless ........ LOL!

And I got some hair pulled when I did the .223 military into 7.62X25MM (for a CZ 52)

....... boy, did that get convoluted ........ I ended up inside reaming and outside turning on that one!!!


The things a guy does just for laughs and giggles!!!

Best regards and good luck on your project!!!


Three 44s

[Rocky Raab]

35 Rem beat me to it. Using the seater die to neck down is my Secret Tip #2B.

Before you do anything else, try it. Be sure of two things: that the seater die is clean, and that it is backed off enough to keep the case from hitting the crimp shoulder. One full turn ought to do it - the case will lengthen when you neck down, remember!

The crimp shoulder is why this trick only works when necking down cases of essentially the same length. Trying to run (for example) 223 brass into a 221 Fireball seater will just crush every case. Ask me how I know THAT one, LOL!

[Three44s]

Rocky Raab,

I do plan on trying that one ........ most definitely!

Best regards

Three 44s

[Bret4207]

" ........ proper brass is lot's mo'better"

I'm quite sure you're right Bret ...... !

I'll get some "good stuff" soon but I've got the itch now ....... you know, drop a log in front of me ...... and I'll build a chain saw just to cut it out of the way? LOL!!

My Forester outside neck turner is already set for .25 cal as I have been doing some .270 over to .25-06 so all I have to do is change the length on it (if I have the right collet).

My main concern in starting this thread was because I was wanting to avoid cracking the brass ...... now that it seems those marks are lube created ........ thus more cosmetic ..... I am willing to proceed on a few more ......

Three 44s

Now that's a good one!:bigsmyl2:

[Bret4207]

I started reading this thread because I'm in the initial (planning and aquisition) stages of creating a wildcat cartridge/rifle for single shot offhand target matches. I'll be using a custom Ruger #3 action to build a schuetzen style rifle and chambered for a .26-35. it will be a 6.5/.260 based on the .25-35 case. It will use a fast twist barrel and be designed specifically for the old CruiseMissle/LeadZepplen heavy 6.5 some of you guys developed years ago on the shooters/talk.

Your resizing problems reminded me very much of the headaches I had years ago converting 308s to the 6.5x308 wildcat the Redding-Carmichael project. I'd had a 308 BLR rebarreled with a nice mint 6.5 Arisaka barrel (fast twist, hardened bore and unique rifling--I like'em) and rechambered for the cartridge--using the same 6.5 mould for CB.
{FWIW With a little creativity the BLR can accept slightly modified M-14 20 round mags for a cowboy assault rifle}.
Anyway I had MAJOR headaches reforming the bucket of ex-mil brass without getting the fluted shoulders, It took a combination of annealing and multi-stage resizings.
My first shots with mild to mid range loads were frustrating and down right scary. very high pressure signs. the rifle would not extract/eject. cases had to be rodded out with a very firm hit. and the primers were not only flat but pushed back into the firing pin hole just shy of piercing. I had to both inside and outside turn the necks to get them to work. once that was done the same loads worked through the action like they were greased. Working with commercial 308 brass was a bit better, sizing took less effort. 2 stage resizing and just enough outside turning to clean them up. When Rem brought out the .260 Rem which was made with almost exactly the same specs as the Redding/Carmichael wildcat. I darn near got down on my knees to give thanks.

Is this something that wound up in print somewhere? Sounds interesting. Same for your 26/35. Interesting idea, and I agree on the Arisaka barrels.

[Rocky Raab]

A final word about lube when using the seater die to neck down. Lightly lube the necks only - the rest of the case won't touch anything in the seater die. Go slow and easy on the press handle so you feel the case being altered. You may even want to do this in two stages, doing half the neck first and then lowering the die to do the rest of the neck plus the body. A shim or thick washer as a die spacer works great.

Wipe the shoulders of any excess lube and re-lube the neck and body before you run the cases through the sizer die. Again, slow and easy is the ticket.

Load and fireform as usual. Annealing is good at this stage for longer case life.

[Three44s]

Rocky Raab,

Thanks for that ..... and yes, I've been doing a staged re-size on later casings. Same on the lube question.

I see your point on the Seater die ..... I will try just lubing the neck!!!

I REALLY appreciate the help here ...... it's most useful!

Best regards

Three 44s

[exblaster]

When necking down cases to a smaller caliber I use my .22 Jet die to start the case neck taper. the rapid taper of the S&W Jet eases the reforming. I only size enough of the case neck to start it into the smaller caliber neck and pass over the expander button.

Exblaster

[Three44s]

exblaster,

Thank you for that!

I don't have a .22 Jet die but I might snag one when the opportunity affords itself!

I do enough other conversions lately that it be handy!

Three 44s

[Eutectic]

Three44s,

I have reformed brass for many years, both for several wildcats and to make premium target brass.....

I lead in with this line above because forming .25-35 from .30-30 brass CORRECTLY is a lot tougher than it would seem at first glance.. In fact, the .25-35 along with the .219 Zipper are some of the worst cases to do if you want a premium job.

So I would recommend first, that you ask yourself how much time you are willing to spend? Honestly, for a tough one like the .25-35, new brass should be purchased if at all possible.

Why is the .25-35 tough to form from .30-30 correctly? Any case that requires a significant increase in body taper reduction is usually a tough one to form. This is the first step towards GOOD cases then. A die is needed to reduce the .30-30 body taper close to that of the .25-35 taper first! Most forming die sets have a die for such a step. I machined and hardened my own having a lathe. If you make one note most .25-35's are tighter in the web area than the .30-30 is. My taper die reduces this area to .415".

I recommend new or once fired .30-30 brass of modern manufacture. The jobs tough enough without using junk cases.

Do not anneal yet! You want all form sizing to be circumferential not longitudinal!

First I size cases in a full length .30-30 sizing die with the neck expander removed. This gives a good round neck to start.

Second, I size cases through my body die to reduce body taper and web area.

Third I size the neck and shoulder back using a 6.8 SPC full length die. I use Hornady 'Unique' case lube. IT IS IMPERATIVE to wipe excess lube from the neck/shoulder area with your fingers before setting a new shoulder back or you will get oil dents!

Fourth, Size in your .25-35 full length sizing die BACKED OFF about 3/4 of a turn from touching shell holder. WATCH EXCESS LUBE.

NOW ANNEAL the neck/shoulder area to about 800F

Fifth and final forming step. Full length size or even better, size for the headspace of your chamber. Again, watch excess lube.

Trim to length and they should look like this....

Eutectic

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/25-35_Formed_brass.jpg

[Three44s]

Eutectic,

Yes, I'd call that a premium job!!!

Well done and duly noted!!!

I am definitely going to work with factory correct brass while I ponder this conversion!!

Thank you for your interest and input!

Three 44s

[gnoahhh]

Eutectic, thanks for the detailed tutorial. I too play with .25/35 and .22 High Power and learned early on to buy W-W .25/35 brass and be done with it. Naturally I had to take a stab at re-forming some of the mountain of .30/30 brass into those two cartridges, with decidedly mixed results. It was an amusing sequence of various other dies I had on hand that allowed me to finally get decent looking cases. (By the way, the rejects with dented shoulders work just fine. The ones with actual creases were relegated to shooting low-vel cast and held up surprisingly well.)

I too can see the usefulness of a dedicated intermediate die for the the initial tapering. Eutectic, did you make your own reamer or buy one? If self made would you share the dimensions? I've been wondering if a Morse taper reamer would make for a good starting point for something like this.

To compound my issues, I now have a .25/35 AI on the way. I used to not be such a masochist, honest!

[Eutectic]

I too can see the usefulness of a dedicated intermediate die for the the initial tapering. Eutectic, did you make your own reamer or buy one? If self made would you share the dimensions? I've been wondering if a Morse taper reamer would make for a good starting point for something like this.

gnoahhh,

I used some water quench drill rod I had. The length is 2". I drilled a 5/16" hole all the way through (in the lathe) Then I lathe bored to .322" with a very small boring tool. I mentioned I size .30-30 brass first in a .30-30 full length die with neck expander removed and neck OD is .320" at this point from my die. This step keeps case centered during body reduction.

I then taper bored the die. Dimensions were .414" at opening and .370" in at 1 1/4" depth. I continue taper cut into 1 3/8" depth, or just enough to not touch the shoulder. THIS DIE DOES NO SHOULDER OR NECK FORMING.

I harden die and polish ID. I usually body size in two steps. It is very easy to get longitudinal 'stretch marks' along the body and I'm bad about my formed brass appearance to put it mildly!

This die should work fine for initial body taper forming for .22 Savage HP as well.

Eutectic

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Checking into this thread a bit late, but have made new Winchester 30/30 cases into 25/30 cases with no problem.

Yes, you are seeing lube dents. Slack back a bit on the lube.

IF the cases are not overly dented, shoot em!!!!!!!!!!!

I use the Hornady dies, with the Imperial wax, and the sizing is a one step process. Quick and simple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My friend has a Savage model #99, so I load the spitzer or spire point "J" bullet for his rifle.

Anyway, 30/30 to 25/35 should be no problem.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[gnoahhh]

Thanks Eutectic. I'll try that.

[madsenshooter]

Screwing the die upward and only sizing a small portion at a time helps too. Size a little, remove the case, screw the die down, size a litte, remove the case (just from the die, don't pull it over the expander ball). In time you'll be able to tell how much pressure causes those creases. DON'T ANNEAL FIRST! Your necks will collapse down into the shoulder! Use intermediate steps where possible, for instance, the first would be 30/30 with the expander ball removed, 7/30 Waters with the expander ball removed. There should be a 6.5mm die about the right length to at least further neck size the case, again with the expander ball removed. (You can buy sizing die bodies alone from Lee). I took some .405 Win down to 6mm-30/40Krag not long ago in steps like this.

[Three44s]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot,

I have not been able to get my Lyman dies to work in one pass ...... my best hands down has been multiple trips and redistibute the lube away from the shoulder as it migrates there.

If I limit the lube, I get hard workage on the brass and figure I'd be sticking cases.

Good to hear you are getting such service out of your Hornady dies.

Three 44s

[Three44s]

Madsenshooter,

I had looked at getting .30-30 and 7-30 sizers for an incremental step down with the necks.

It will all come down to how much .30-30 brass I end up and how cheaply.

In the meantime, I have some .25-35 brass coming to keep me going while I get things sorted out.

I also appreciate the heads up about Lee making body dies!

Thank you!

Three 44s

[patsher]

Just found this thread, and have the same problem -- trying to turn 30-30 brass into 25-35 brass. I'm getting old and cranky, so I'm going to do it the "easy" way . i finally found a forming die specifically for this 30-30 to 25-35 conversion. Redding makes it, It's a special order, says it takes 30 days, so it will be a while before I can report on the results -- but if it works maybe we can figure out a way to pass it around to those of us trying to keep this venerable old caliber in service! PM me if you're interested.

[Eutectic]

I would like to add that Lee makes a very economical die set for .32-40 Winchester.
The .32-40 full length sizer can be used I believe as the first forming die to establish the case taper increase. This should be done in at least two or three progressive steps.

A way to know the quality of your finished formed brass other than visual is worth mentioning I believe.......

If you do too much all at once (i.e. - reduce case taper, move shoulder back, reduce neck) it is entirely possible to get a .25-35 casing that looks fine.... BUT IT MAY MEASURE SHORT IN OVERALL LENGTH! Correctly done, a .30-30 reformed will require trimming to get to correct .25-35 length.
If you have a decent looking casing that is short....... the excess brass has gone somewhere. The trouble is it may be in the neck, shoulder, body; and worse yet, not uniform in location.
Short cutting the forming operation to end up with necks .002" eccentric, necks too thick close to the shoulder is making junk.... and one would be better off buying factory cases as they monitor these critical areas.

Eutectic

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Three44s,

I see you live a few hours west of me, but you are sure welcome to trot on over for a show and tell session.

I'd need to double check, but I think I have a bag of new 30/30s sitting here, on which we could have a test run.

And yes, the Hornady dies work great for this forming situation.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Three44s]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot,

Thanks for the invite ......... I've got enough winter for me here right now ....... but at the right time of year ........ Idaho is just beautiful!

Eutectic,

Thanks for sharing that idea ....... it's a very good one ......... as I look at cartridge drawings .... it should be a real ringer!!

I am going to get a set and give it a go!

Best regards

Three 44s

[Three44s]

Snuggled into the loading room a couple of times yesterday and last evening and tried something:

There was a consensus that with necking .30 something brass into .25 brass that necks would have to be reamed or turned.

I have been turning the few I'd loaded thus far as I have the tooling and "been there" on other conversions ...... the .270 to .25-06 and .308 to .243 are examples so the notion that .30-30 to .25-35 needed it made total sense.

One point I'll make here is that the bullet I am currently using is the Speer 75 gr. FP (J-word) ..... it's short ....... and I am only seating in a short amount to reduce the long jump to the start of the rifling. Thus, I am not seating anywhere deep enough to utilize the whole neck.

Now, I am not saying it never does or often does not need turning or reaming ....... BUT on that occasion with my cases thus far ........ .30-30 rem and federal cases .......

........ in MY GUN ...... and that short bullet ... it does not need turning or reaming!

I discovered this by checking a loaded and unturned round in the chamber for ease of chambering and looking very carefully at the outside neck are for ANY indication of dragging .....

....... then (with a light load) I did the dangerous part ................

.............. I handed the rifle to a neighbor that I don't like and let them fire it!!!


(Part of that story is bogus!)

Well, after it was fired ....... I took it back to the load room and made the diffinitive test .... I easily slipped a bullet back into the just fired case's mouth.

Easy fit!

Before I fired that case I miked the outside of the neck of the just loaded round to give me a baseline in case I survived the first test ........ and now have a baseline for my rifle's chamber.

(It was also within specs on cartridge drawings I could find both in my books and online!)

SO ..... my point is not that one never needs to ream or outside neck turn ..........


.............. my point is that rifles are individuals ....... assuming this or that without measuring and some judicous test firing ..........

.......... I'm still looking for that neighbor! Last time I looked he was running through the snow waving his arms and yelling OBSENITIES ..........

(I got some more testing for him!) ......... when I get some longer bullets ....... I'll have to test all over again!!!


The moral is: Until you test ......... you don't know where you stand!

....... and if you are tricky enough ....... borrow the neighbor!


Three 44s

[Good Cheer]

Had the same problem turning second hand 30-30's into 25's. Partially sizing with wiping to remove lube is the best yet found. The geometry of the case keeps the lube from going any where but dinty more country.