Siamese Mauser

[semtav]

Anyone shooting these in their original configuration?
I've got one in 8 x 50R coming.
probably going to buy a few buffalo arms brass and find a mold.
what kind of mold and powder work best?

I always wanted one when I was in High School to convert to 45-70.
Now I just want one, but have enough 45-70's.

[madsenshooter]

I'd read that brass for the original 8x50R can be made from 7.62x54R, which isn't too easy to find at the moment, cause everyone and Bubba is out Mosin around now. Let me double check, I think it can be made from 7.62x54R which would seem a lot easier to me than making 8x52R from 45/70

[junkbug]

Also, 8x56r brass can be shortened and reformed.
I have a M95 in 8x50r, but have not sprung for dies yet. I plan to use a Lee .338 mold, sizing the boolit to .332 or .333. I'm not sure if I will have to neck ream to get them to chamber.

OOPS;
Thought this was about the M95 Steyr. Actually, the Siamese cartridges ARE based on the original 8x50r Austrian, Though.

[bob208]

the siamese mauser is a 8 x52r. my book by note says use .45-70.

i remember when they first came in this country. i was at a gunshow there was pile of them all matching numbers. $20.00 apice. i did not buy one instead i paid $150.00 for a 03a4 with scope and sling.

[elk hunter]

Apparently a few of the Siamese Mausers survived in the original 8 x 50R, most were converted to 8 x 52R. All the usual sources state that .323 bullets are correct. Mine is the later 8 x 52R. I tried .323 diameter bullets and it shot dismal to say the least. I don't recall now what the rather tired, rugged barrel slugged at, but I went to the Lee .330 diameter bullet intended for the 8 x 56R Steyr and 16 grains of 2400 and it shoots much better. It's been quite some time since I worked with that rifle, so I don't recall all the details. The one target shot with that load that I can find has a bit of vertical stringing, but I suspect much of it was due to my aging eyes.

[madsenshooter]

Generally, if you find one that's had the ramp of the rear sight cut so that only half the Thai numbers show, you have the 8x52r, if the Thai numbers are whole on the sides of the sight ramp, you're more likely to have the original 8x50r.

[semtav]

OK, this one is supposedly still an 8 X 50R, but I better wait till I get it and check the chamber to make sure.
Is there an online diagram of the two so I can tell the difference between them?

thanks
Brian

[NickSS]

One thing to note is that there are several different cartridges all called 8X50R. The ones I know of are for the 8mm label, 8mm Siamese and 8mm Austrian. The cartridges differ in neck length and shoulder angle so you need to make sure of the dies you get to reload them or form brass for that matter.

[madsenshooter]

Here's a couple pics, couldn't find one for the 8x50R. George Nonte's book says that the 8x50R Type 45 ammo can be made from the 7.62x53R Russian (Mosin-Nagant round) by trimming to 1.97" and full length sizing, then using .323" bullets. That sounds a lot like the 8x50R Mannlicher, and the cartridges look to be identical, but that does not mean they are interchangeable. In any case, most of the rifles chambered for the Type 45 cartridge were later modified to use the Type 66.

He says that the 8x52R Type 66 can be made from .45-70. "Trim to 2.04"; turn rim to .560" diameter; run all way in .33 Winchester die; reduce neck and set shoulder back in Lyman 8mm neck die until bolt closes; Fire form. Use .323" bullets." Sounds like quite a job. The cartridge base is close enough to the .45-70 than many Siamese Mausers were rebarrelled to that caliber when they were imported a while back.

[semtav]

OK


thanks
Brian

[junkbug]

Not to disrespect anybody, but those notes, and advice, were written decades ago. Obviously, the rifles haven't changed over time, but available brass has. The critical dimenrions are in the rim geometry, the base geometry, and he overall legnth.

The 7.62x54r Russian worked, and still works, but is getting difficult to find. The 8x56R Hungarian should work, and is sometimes available for less than the Russian brass. Also, this (Hungarian) brass, in boxer primed configuration, was simply not available when our mentors from the past were working and re-working 45-70 brass.

Take care.

[MtGun44]

7.62x54R is getting hard to find? With the huge number of Mosins in the caliber, my
experience is that there is a lot of sources. Prvi Partisan makes good quality boxer
primed brass. Usually, Graf has had this in stock, but have not checked recently.

Bill

[junkbug]

Every time I look, all I see in stock at all the usual suspects is Norma and Lapua, usally at $1.00+ for each unprimed casing. 8x56r isn't always in stock either, but more often, when I look. Usually 60-65 cents per casing.

[semtav]

Rifle showed up today. In much better shape than I expected.

It appears, tho that this may have been converted to 8X52R because the sight ramp apears to have been ground down and some of the siam numbers on the side are no longer there.

plus the obvious, an 8X52R was stamped on the stock.

Brian

[jrgift]

Got my 8x52 years ago from Sarco as a barreled action the bore is very good so I decided to keep the original caliber.Made a couple of chamber casts that looked good. Had a piece of plain walnut around and decided to make a short Mannlicker type.Turned out to be a little chunky but it shot well ,killed 2 bucks with it using a 170 grain.Worked up a few cast boolit loads that shot well.Used 45-70 brass for the case as per Nontes insructions.

[semtav]

Just ordered a batch from buffalo arms. Hope I don't have to turn the necks, like somone on an old archived post mentioned having to do with their shells.

got a lee 329-205 mold to start with

what are being used for dies? figure I will try my 8X57 die and neck size only.

[semtav]

excluding the rim, what is the closest commercial cartridge to the 8X52R?

284 is the closest I can come.

[semtav]

Brass arrived today so I loaded 5 shells to try.
loading and test chambering in gun was a cinch. No problems with the current batch of BA brass.
Will shoot them tomorrow.

While I was searching on the internet tonight, I came across this treatise on making the brass.


I do the cartridge cases commercially, so not having case collapses is essential.

I take the 45/70 cases, and run them through a .45 neck expander, to "true" the necks...Bulk .45/70 cases usually have the occasional neck "out of round".

Then I use a .40/82 WCF die, a .348 Win or.33WCF die, and the 8x52R FLS die to step down the neck and body to correct shape. Otherwise one risks collapsing the cases with a "Fold" either lengthwise, or circumferential, especially with NEW Winchester brass.

The .33WCF die gives the case almost its final shoulder position, and after FLS with the 8mm die, it can be Trimmed to 0AL of 52mm ( I use a lathe for this, the case is held with the rim in the "relief" grooves of the jaws, about two or three in from the end of the jaws; this gives a constant length setting, with a sharp "knife" tool set in the toolpost ( and the saddle locked down). Just like a factory trimming machine. I then deburr the case neck with an RCBS deburring tool (inside and out)--by hand.

The Rim is a more complicated proposition: Firstly, I take an 8x52R FLS die body, and sleeve it with a threaded (7/8x14 UNF ) brass sleeve, and lock the die using the locking ring to close the die into the brass ring. It also serves as a positive stop for the brass-die combo to seat in the Chuck jaws. I then tap the already sized shell case into the die (a small brass mallet suffices...this leaves sufficient of the case head and rim standing proud of the die body to re-cut the rim and deepen the extractor groove. I have a hand-ground Tool, using 1/4 inch HSS toolbar, which is shaped to the extractor groove ( with forward bevel); Once set up to cut the right depth (to reduce the rim from .;605 to.560), I take a rapid cut across the rim, from the base towards the chuck, then once the tool is level with the forward edge of the rim, plunge the cut into the head, leaving a new "extractor groove" just ahead of the rim (like a lot of commercial "rimmed" cases...this allows the "Mauser Rimmed" extractor of a Siamese to properly engage the case.).

The Use of the sleeved FLS die makes sure that holding a tapered case is easy, concentric, and does not damage the case body.
The case, once finished, is simply "tapped out" of the die combo with a 1/4 inch rod. Just for "aesthetics", the back edge of the rim can also be "deburred" either with the bevel on the tool bar or by a swift pass with a fine file, as the shell is still in the "chuck".

With my "SouthBend" Lathe Clone, I do about 50 cases in half-an-hour per operation, so one hour gets 50 cases, trimmed to length and rim turned. In order not to overheat the lathe Motor (it's an old model, from the 1950s), I do a session of about 30 minutes, then go and do something else for 30 minutes, to allow the motor to cool down...all the intermittent stopping and starting overheats Electric motors a lot...I will have to get a clutch plate fitted, to allow the motor to run without all the Power-draining stops and starts.
Maybe a new "cutoff" lathe with a better ventilated motor will be the solution...but I have to sell a few thousand 8x52R cases to be able to afford it ( even though such a dedicated Trim and Heading lathe would pay for itself pretty quickly, with the volumes of shells that I process, both Reloaders and Movie Blanks).

So, apart from buying 8x52R cases from a supplier such as Buffalo in the USA, or Ourselves (AV Ballistics) in Australia, one is limited to "making do" with a file and drillpress to turn the rims down...you could get a friendly Lathe shop to make you a shell-collet from brass to hold a FLS die, and still lock it into a drillpress chuck.... I used to use a UNIMAT SL bench top lathe, and used the headstock bore taper to hold the case neck and shoulder, and a live centre in the primer pocket to support the case, whilst I turned the rim etc. It did thousands of cases before finally burning out the motor.

Anybody doing a lot of case conversions actually "needs" a small Hobby lathe ( there are many on the market for between $1,000 and $1,500 (both US and Aust.)) which besides doing all the cases, can also make a lot of custom tools for reloading and case converting...even boring your own FLS dies.

regards,
Doc AV



I might have to try that to see if it is as easy as he makes it out to be. Only thing I'd probably do different is put the shell in my 45-70 LE Wilson case trimmer holder and turn the rims before reforming the brass.

[madsenshooter]

I'm fairly certain Lee has those die bodies, that'd be a cheap forming set! If you go into the parts section of a particular die, you can buy the sizing body separate. I know I used the 348 and 33 Win on my way down from .405 to 6mm-30/40.

[jrgift]

Made a couple of taper dies on my Unimat lathe from yellow brass,also used the lathe to turn down the rims.Of course I later annealed the necks and fireformed.Some losses but acceptable.

[tb5'js]

Many years ago I too bought a Siamse Mauser after reading and article about it in Guns & Ammo I bought two of them one though came without the bolt sent the other one off had the face of the bolt open up and the got a set of case forming dies to resize 45-70 brass to 8x52r works good only trouble never could get the correct size bullet it has to be larger than 323 for all it will do is keyhole.

[semtav]

Got to looking at my Buffalo Arms resized 45-70 brass a little more closely today, now that I have some that were shot compared to newly resized.
Overall length is a little short, starting out at 2.02 length with .430 width at the shoulder, and winding up with a 2.008 length and .464 at the shoulder.

I need to check with BA and see why they are making them so short. or If I got the wrong brass.

tb5'js
Lee makes a .329 mold that works perfectly.
Brian

[semtav]

Finally got a chance to put the mauser to the test.Shooting at a military match. Seems to be real accurate. At least as accurate as stock military sights and my shooting ability allow it.

Had a chance to talk to someone at Buffalo arms about the brass. I was a little disappointed, the brass I recieved is not 8X52R dimensions, but they were no help in ideas of why. I did fireform them to fit, But they are quite a bit short in the neck area now.

Since the brass is a little thick in the neck, I have to crimp the whole neck, by running the finished shell into an 30 carbine seating die so they will chamber.

Right now, I don't have to even resize the brass, just deprime and reload.
Brian