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Bullshop
11-24-2010, 11:04 PM
I recently asked for help with a Ruger 22 hornet that would not shoot well. From all the responses I got I can see that there is lots of experiance here with the hornet. I have also noticed lots of interest in any new custom 22 cal mold designs.
I have been so disappointed with the level of participation in postal matches in the recent past that I have been trying to think of a way to get more folks to play.
I think one of the reasons for poor turn out is the use of 10 shot groups. It can be so frustrating to have a lovely little 9 shot cluster and one of ten three inches away.
I would say that about 99% of my loading either directly or indirectly will be purpose built with some type of hunting application in mind.
Since I rarely get 10 shots at an animal I am hunting I am thinking the target should more reflect what we may see in a hunting situation.
With that in mind what I propose for a course of fire is 10 shots but on 4 different targets. Three targets would get 3 shots each for group and one target would get just one shot for closest to center. The three three shot targets would get averaged for one score.
I think it would be best to shoot at 100 yards because 50 yards or less will make scoring too difficult.
I hope this will encourage more folks to try in a postal match this time.
I would like to run this for 22's only. If it goes well maybe then we could do the same with no caliber restriction in another match.
So its any 22 cal center fire shooting boolits, any weight rifle or pistol, any sight, any position, to be fired at 100 yards shooting three targets with three shots each for group and one target with one shot for closest to center.
I propose it to run through February and end March 1.
I know it will be hard or impossible for some folks to do this through the winter but well hay we have to get through winter anyway and if this does well we can start another in March.
Lets have a show of hand and see if we have enough interest. Comments and suggestions welcome.

TCFAN
11-25-2010, 02:00 PM
This sounds like fun. I like the 22 cast. As far as targets go is it our choice to use what ever we have on hand or do you want everyone to use the same target....Terry

Bullshop
11-25-2010, 02:36 PM
Makes no difference as long as there is some way to find center for the target that gets one shot for center. A square might be easier than a circle. You can even measure your own target if you want, no matter.
The thing I am looking for hear is hunting accuracy and all the details of the load.
I got lots of input read that tip to get my hornet to shoot from a Ruger I am having trouble with.
That made me wonder how many such tips for tweaking accuracy we might get on a 22 only match. I guess I didn't add that I would like all load data and tweak tips to accompany each target entry. Also if you have more than one 22 CF enter for each cartridge or gun. We might all learn something about our 22's.

rhbrink
11-27-2010, 05:42 AM
I would be interested I have a new Encore .223 that I have been wanting to shoot some bullits in but haven't got around to it yet. Also have a older Sako in 222 mag that I have shot cast in the past and shot pretty well seemed like at the time.

And I promise to enter this one this time maybe.

Bullshop
11-29-2010, 12:23 AM
That's two. This could really get interesting if we get enough people to shoot it.
How about instead of three targets for group and one for center would it be better to go with three for each? Then we could combine the average of both the group targets and the closest to center targets for one score. We could also have honorable mention for the smallest of each.

rhbrink
11-29-2010, 06:17 AM
That's two. This could really get interesting if we get enough people to shoot it.
How about instead of three targets for group and one for center would it be better to go with three for each? Then we could combine the average of both the group targets and the closest to center targets for one score. We could also have honorable mention for the smallest of each.

Slightly confussed by this one do you mean to shoot three groups for measure and then shoot three shots at the last target for closest to center then average those three shots?

Looks like I need to get to casting some of those itty-bitty boolets really not that hard to do after you get the right mind set. Just got to make sure the moon is in the right place and the planets are properly lined up, I prefer a south wind with a little cloud cover too.

Bullshop
11-29-2010, 03:52 PM
No no what I mean is a total of 6 targets. Three targets get three shots each for group and three targets get 1 shot each for closest to center.
Any other hornet shooters or any 22 cal boolit shooters want to join in the fun?

NoZombies
11-30-2010, 05:04 AM
When would this match be running? starting in Feb and ending the first of March?

I'd like to, but can't think of anything I might shoot in the match.

Calamity Jake
12-02-2010, 10:44 AM
I may give my heavy barrel 12 twist AR a run at this.

Bullshop
12-02-2010, 01:56 PM
Well it is still just an idea that has not yet been finalised.
If we get enough sicntwisted (22 casters) minds together and agree on a course of fire lets go for it. Anytime from now until 3/1/11. Six targets total, three targets with three shots each for group and three targets with one shot each for center.
Sound OK? What yall think?
I was considering allowing 243cal and up to 257 cal and call it a small bore match since we weren't getting much interest with just 22's
If yes I think cutting off at 25 cal keeps it in the small bore class but going up to 264 would include lots of milsurp guns that I dont consider small bore.
Agree? How about some votes or something?

rhbrink
12-02-2010, 02:37 PM
Course of fire sounds good to me, I would like to see it stay at .22 cal myself but if you feel like you need to allow 243 and 257's thats fine too. Think that 257 should be tops myself.
If you do allow the bigger cals would you then have to measure to the center of the boolit holes to keep everything even?

Cleaned up my 225415 mold the other day but haven't got the nerve to do it yet, maybe the little SOB wiil be nicer to me that it was the last time.

TCFAN
12-02-2010, 04:21 PM
6 targets like you said sounds good to me. I would prefer 22 cast only....Terry

NoZombies
12-02-2010, 04:35 PM
Can we make it 100 yards for optical sights and 50 for open sights or something like that?

Bullshop
12-02-2010, 04:53 PM
Postal match of the people, by the people, and for the people so unless someone complains lets stay at 22's only.
I never thought about iron sights but I see no reason why there shouldn't be a 50 yard class for those as well.
rhbrink
Cast and ye shall overcome.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-02-2010, 11:25 PM
Postal match of the people, by the people, and for the people so unless someone complains lets stay at 22's only.
I never thought about iron sights but I see no reason why there shouldn't be a 50 yard class for those as well.
rhbrink
Cast and ye shall overcome.


+1 on 22's only and a class for iron site 50 yard.

I'd use Ruger #3 in 22 Hornet.
I have yet to load some of My own cast in 22 hornet.
I have everything necesary, just haven't done it yet.
Jon

Bullshop
12-02-2010, 11:36 PM
JonB in Glencoe
Well by golly this may be just the thing to push you over the top and put those tools and that nifty little hornet to work.
I am working on a trade for one of those lovely little Browning micro medallions in 22 hornet. I sure hope that works out. If so I will most likely use that or maybe a BRNO ZBK 10 ( I think thats what it is) single shot. It has a heavy trigger pull but it does shoot boolits really well.

NoZombies
12-03-2010, 02:19 AM
Sweet, unless I sell my stevens hornet between now and then or acquire something else, it'll probably get called on.

scrapcan
12-03-2010, 01:27 PM
Ok I have a m98 that has a 22-250 barrel on it at the moment and a 308 win barrel to put on it. Maybe I should try it for this match before I stand the barrel in the corner. I am sure i will not be a good competitor, but if you need participants, what the heck.

If it is a go count me in. Good thing we have until march 1, We might have a non windy day between now and then!

Bullshop
12-03-2010, 01:57 PM
Looks like we have enough to go for it. More than likely will pick up more along the way too.
What I most want to see with this is with each entry I would like detail of the loading procedure to the most minute degree. Things like boolit alloy, diameter, lube, case, powder, type of dies, sizing, and any secret quirks anyone has come up with to improve accuracy. I see this as a sharing of knowledge as much as a competition.
Manleyjt
When your done with that 22/250 barrel I might be interested in trading you out of it, especially if you win, hahaha!

scrapcan
12-03-2010, 03:05 PM
Dan,

I will trade you the barrel for your corbin dies, oh wait if i did I would have no need for the dies.

I hope I can even get close to the top of the heap, sometimes I am the guy that helps to make sure their is entry fee paid to pay the winners!

Bullshop
12-03-2010, 03:56 PM
No entry fee unless someone wants to make a donation to Ken then we all win.
PS I tried a test load today from a Ruger hornet and the first shot went dead center. That would have been a good one to save for one of my three closest to center targets,
Unfortunately I fired a second shot that decided to land about 2" away, dumbdumb!
We have come up to about -10F now but now the wind is blowing. I think I will use up a lot of 22 boolits before March.

scrapcan
12-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Do you care what target we use to send in?

Bullshop
12-03-2010, 08:54 PM
For your group targets it makes no difference. For your center targets try to use something that will be easy to find center, like circle, or square, or rectangle.
I see we have 315 views so we must be gaining momentum.

semtav
12-03-2010, 10:05 PM
I've got a Marlin 1894CL in 218 Bee, so count me in.

Now for the Hard part, Never participated in one, so don't know the rules.
We just pick the nicest day we can and shoot our targets? Witnesses? No do overs I assume.



Maybe post a good set of rules here so Those fence sitting will know what is coming and jump in.

Brian

Bullshop
12-03-2010, 11:56 PM
NO RULES accept that you shoot at 100 yards with a scope or 50 yards with iron sights.
Shoot all you want and send in your best effort.
I have seen too many postal matches killed by too many rules.

rhbrink
12-04-2010, 08:26 AM
All-righty!!! Sounds like my kind of a game.

Make it for fun and maybe learn a thing or two, I can handle that!

Bullshop
12-04-2010, 06:41 PM
Testing testing testing 123. Wow primers make a lot of difference in a 22 hornet with H 4227 at zero degrees.
I did coax the Ruger into a decent three shot three target average of 1.31" today.
Some particulars,
case - WW unsized
boolit - Ranch Dog with Gator check at .228"
alloy - 6pt ww/ 1pt mono type quenched
lube - speed green of course
temp - zero F
humidity - 66%
I found that using sized cases and sizing boolits at .225" or even .224" I was getting too much run out on the bullet/case center line. I tried three sets of dies including the Lee Collete. I even tried two presses including a coax press. The cure was to use unsized cases and lubing the boolits in a .228" die. The gas check only sizes to .228" even though the boolit is only about .225" or slightly over. They still fit tight enough in the case the the boolits can not be turned with my fingers. Boolits are seated to slightly engrave. Details details it all in the details

rhbrink
12-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Good shootin' especially in zero degree temps I got some 225415's cast today found out that they will not work in my Encore .223. the throat is way too short pushes the base of the boolit about .125 or more past the bottom of the neck. Never had any luck with the gas check hanging down in the powder chamber. Guess have to shake the dust of the old Sako it will allow the boolits to be seated out far enought to work.

Bullshop
12-04-2010, 08:03 PM
rhbrink
I am right in the middle of experimenting with nose sizing either with custom or standard dies for that very reason.
I am getting some very impressive results with a custom 6.5 Roberts and nose sizing boolits to bore ride so they can be seated out enough to avoid having the GC or lube grooves past the neck.
The same can be done for your Encore 223 but will require a custom die. No big deal really at about $20.00 from Buckshot. Size as much of the nose as is needed to be a snug fit riding the lands and you may be very surprised with the results.

semtav
12-04-2010, 11:52 PM
Loading up some 218 Bee tonight. Just realized I'd never shot it with cast so have no data.

Can we enter twice.

thinking:

Marlin 1894CL 218 Bee in open sights category
Winchester 94/64 219 Zipper in Scope category.

Brian

Bullshop
12-05-2010, 12:30 AM
That will be OK. What mold are you going to use? The Ranch Dog is a good one for that Marlin. It seems to shoot well in about anything, even slow twist. I like its length for weight. It goes about 52gn with my alloy but is about the same length as my 45gn molds. That is what I was shooting today in a Ruger. I did go dig out my CBE mold and cast a couple hundred today with it. It is only three gn heavier but is quite some longer. That RD cuts some clean holes in paper too.

semtav
12-05-2010, 02:16 AM
I 'm going to use the 225438 to start. I still have a bunch of them cast up that I was shooting in my 219 zipper.
I thought I hadn't shot any cast thru it, but I found an old post that says I did. Just can't find my data. Luckily my old post says 4198 worked good in it, and thats what I'm starting with.

Yea, I just saw your other post on the ranch dog.

I've got the 22 bator and the little 225107 I might try too

rhbrink
12-05-2010, 07:52 AM
rhbrink
I am right in the middle of experimenting with nose sizing either with custom or standard dies for that very reason.
I am getting some very impressive results with a custom 6.5 Roberts and nose sizing boolits to bore ride so they can be seated out enough to avoid having the GC or lube grooves past the neck.
The same can be done for your Encore 223 but will require a custom die. No big deal really at about $20.00 from Buckshot. Size as much of the nose as is needed to be a snug fit riding the lands and you may be very surprised with the results.
Thats a good idea I have done the same with 30 cal stuff and it really works out very well. I was very disapointed that boolit wounldn't work, seems like a good design and shoots well in my other 22 CF. I think that I'll make a chamber cast to see what I really have and get some measurements.

Bullshop
12-05-2010, 07:25 PM
30 below today so I didn't get to church. It didn't stop me from doing some shooting though. For the past several days I have been working with this Ruger 22 hornet.
I am looking over the targets and see progress. Today even in the cold I got the best most consistent groups this Ruger has ever given.
Four things that changed from previous loadings are #1 .228" sizing, #2 crimping with a Lee factory crimp die, #3 using a small rifle magnum primer, #4 no sizing of the brass.
The reason I quit sizing the case is that no matter what diameter I sized the boolits to I was getting a bulge on one side of the neck of a loaded round. I tried two different presses and three different sets of dies but it did not change. The .228" sized boolits are a reasonably snug fit in the unsized cases but the crimp made a big difference in consistency.
The small rifle magnum primer seems to go against the grain. Most folks shooting the hornet seem to go with small pistol primers. Then again most folks are not shooting thier hornet at 30 below zero. Under these conditions this is working and today for the first time ever with this rifle I shot several groups under the inch mark.
My best three target average for the day is .820". The best group for the day was .716". That is the best this Ruger has ever done.
Here is an interesting point. I was bringing the gun inside between groups but left it on the bench once between loading for two targets. The first group from a warm gun shot its group about 1.5" higher than from the cold gun. The difference was mirage. The gun with warm barrel gives so much mirage its hard to see the target. The cold gun gave no mirage. And you thought it only happened in the desert.
From my view point now I have already won this match. Not saying this score can not be beat but just in the data I have collected on this rifle make it a winner for me.
After shooting these groups and see what the mirage can do I can see that shooting the closest to center targets will be very interesting and maybe not as easy as I thought.

rhbrink
12-05-2010, 08:46 PM
I'll bet that there will be a lot of one shot targets throwed in a lot of trash cans.

Bullshop
12-05-2010, 09:41 PM
Roll of butcher paper, king size sharpy, and soup can stencil = many targets.

semtav
12-05-2010, 10:15 PM
My first try wasn't too successful other than to get the gun sighted in. Gotta work on this 10 lb trigger.

TCFAN
12-06-2010, 12:44 AM
From my view point now I have already won this match. Not saying this score can not be beat but just in the data I have collected on this rifle make it a winner for me.


Bullshop
you have probably won this match before we even get started with groups like that. I have a good shooting 788 in 222 rem but I am not sure I can shoot groups that good. But we will see.
I loaded ammo up today and hope to shoot some this week if the wind will stop blowing. It is going to be fun.
Hope we can get more people to enter...............Terry

rhbrink
12-06-2010, 07:22 AM
From my view point now I have already won this match. Not saying this score can not be beat but just in the data I have collected on this rifle make it a winner for me.


Bullshop
you have probably won this match before we even get started with groups like that. I have a good shooting 788 in 222 rem but I am not sure I can shoot groups that good. But we will see.
I loaded ammo up today and hope to shoot some this week if the wind will stop blowing. It is going to be fun.
Hope we can get more people to enter...............Terry

Kinda what I was thinking Bullshop aready upped the anti on this one glad we have until March. I loaded up some old 222 Mag cases that I had and noticed that some loaded too easy got to looking and some of the case necks split. Guess I'll take the survivors shoot up what I have loaded and anneal the necks on whats left. Start over again.

TCFAN
12-06-2010, 11:10 AM
Kinda what I was thinking Bullshop aready upped the anti on this one glad we have until March. I loaded up some old 222 Mag cases that I had and noticed that some loaded too easy got to looking and some of the case necks split. Guess I'll take the survivors shoot up what I have loaded and anneal the necks on whats left. Start over again.

rhbrink
If your short on 222 mag. cases I have about 60 used ones that you can have if you want them just send a PM with your address........Terry

Bullshop
12-06-2010, 02:25 PM
I think the closest to center targets will be fun and perhaps frustrating. Like someone said a lot will hit the trash.
Remember the final score will be an average of all targets. Shooting in the cold here yesterday I had some groups in the three inch circle I am using for targets and some out all with the same load. My POI changed about 1.5" after my rifle went from room temp to 15 minutes exposure to -30 temp.
An interesting point is that the boolits I shot yesterday were cast the day before.
So much for waiting for them to ripen.

rhbrink
12-06-2010, 03:26 PM
What if a guy would put 3 seperate shots on a big piece of paper then drew a target around each one, probably could get em pretty close to center that way? :wink:

Bullshop
12-06-2010, 03:37 PM
I hope I haven't discouraged anyone from participating. My intention was the opposite. I am trying to share anything that has helped improve things for me as I go.
The single most dramatic change in grouping so far has come from changing two things, not sizing my brass and sizing/lubing the boolits in a .228" die. The addition of a crimp using the Lee FCD had added to the consistency but is not what made the big change to average grouping with this Ruger hornet.
Before these changes were made my ammo had a bulge on one side of the neck, small but there. That bulge did nothing to aid in centering the boolit to the bore or even to the case for that matter. With the no case sizing fat boolit combo the necks are round and obviously aiding in centering the boolit to the case as well as the cartridge to the bore.
I was/am hoping that tidbits of info like this would come out and be shared for all to benefit. The load development for the one boolit in this rifle represents about 150 shots fired and several days time investment. I do understand that most folks do not have the time or place that I have. I can write off the time as work because it does trickle down to business $ for me eventually in some way. The place is my home and I only have to walk in or out of my house to be at the shop or at the range.
For those of you that have only limited time or place I hope anything I or anyone else will share as far as technique, equipment, components or whatever will get you in the game and help to achieve a personally satisfying level of performance as well as a competitive one.
OH yea BTW I think this Ruger that I didn't like all that much before I like even better now. I think it may still do better with a better scope. It is mounted with an old Lyman AA 6x with fine cross hair and even though very clear optically it does show some parallax at 100 yards. if that parallax amounts to about .5" at 100 yards then what is this Ruger capable of ?. Even so the Lyman scope is a good fit for what I use a hornet for, hunting.

Bullshop
12-06-2010, 03:38 PM
rhbrink
I still couldnt get them centered.

Bullshop
12-07-2010, 02:33 PM
Now that the hornet is up to snuff for hunting I think I will switch to the Cooper.
For my small game hunting accuracy has to be at least 2 moa at minimum. If I cant get that to 200 yards it just wont work. The Ruger hornet made that cut barely before this match thingy started. Now that I have invested the time into load development for it it looks like I can expect it to be a 1 moa shooter. I am also finding that the Ranch Dog boolit design has much to offer. Another design I like is from CBE. It is about 55gn and much the same as the NEI #3 but with slightly more meplate. I had at one time the NEI #3 and it was an accurate design but I wanted something similar but with more meplate for hunting so went with the CBE, no regrets there.
For what ever reason I have never been able to get good accuracy from the bator design either the 22 cal or the 35/280 we did on a group buy. Many say they do but I cant.
I have not yet tried the one from BA Bore but I sure would like to. I have at times gotten good results from the Lyman designs of which I have 4, 45 rn, 55 fn, target, and the 60gn rn they used to make but I have modified that one to 50gn PB. It was too long for a 1/16" twist at 60gn but now works much better at pb velocities.
The RCBS has also given good results but when Swede Nelson did the RCBS clone I gave my RCBS mold the PB treatment also. It too is nicely accurate at PB velocity. The clone didn't quite come out a clone but I am very pleased with the offering from Swede none the less. It is a bit too long even for a 1/14" twist if fired below 2000 fps. Even though it makes oval holes at 100 yards from my 22 ccm it is still very pleasantly accurate.
I am looking forward to the new group buy being put together for the light weight 22 from Swede.
Sorry guys but its cold and dark and I am rambling, it helps.

rhbrink
12-07-2010, 07:23 PM
Bullshop I don't mind your ramblings at, all right there is quite a bit of new information for me. Didn't even know CBE made a 22 mold and will check out the BA Bore one too, might be able to get to the range tomorrow got some catching up to do.

rhbrink
12-08-2010, 06:47 PM
Made it to the range today and was a pretty good day for shooting, the old Sako did Ok starting with 10 grains of 2400 and working up to 11 grains the best 3 groups averaged .551 using the Lyman 225415. But that putting one good shot in the center on three different targets is going to be the killer. This is going to be a fun match at least I had as much fun shooting groups as I've had in quite a while and didn't really spend much time going for the one shot center of target yet but boy-o-boy thats going to be the challenge.

TCFAN
12-08-2010, 07:37 PM
I did a little shooting today with the 222.No good groups to brag about for me.The wind was blowing about 10mph or so one way then the other.
Did get to try some of the Speed Green lube that Bullshop sent to me.I think I am going to like that stuff.
Also tried sizing to .228 instead if my usual .225. Also tried SR 4759 for the first time in the 222.Found that I got the best groups with small pistol primers.
My best groups for the day was right at 1 inch so I have a ways to go to catch up with you guys.

rhbrink....The brass goes in the mail in the morning....................Terry

rhbrink
12-08-2010, 08:05 PM
Thanks Terry sure do appreciate it. I was having some wind problems to, today one group would be on one side of the target then the next would be somewhere else just kept chasing them around. Thats what is going to make the one center shot on three seperate targets tough! OH-well fun and games best get a big roll of paper and some marking pins and get to casting.

Bullshop Junior
12-08-2010, 08:29 PM
Dad asked me to post this pic.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=3053

Bullshop
12-08-2010, 11:58 PM
The Pics Jr. posted are the results of last weeks work with the Ruger 22 hornet, H 4227 powder, and the Ranch Dog mold.
The sweet spot came with unsized cases, 8.6gn H 4227 in WWS cases, cci SRM primer, RD cast 6/1 ww to mono type quenched, @ .228", speed green lubed, crimped in a Lee FCD, and seated out to just touch the lands. This load shot consecutive sub 1" groups. From a Ruger hornet that not too shabby.

Bullshop
12-09-2010, 12:09 AM
rhbrink
.551!!!! I wish I kept my Sako 222 now. If you would like I will send you a sample of the CBE boolits. I bet you will like them. I might put a little bend in them though so you wont be shooting any half inch groups.
I just ran a small batch at .228" or I still have a hand full of as cast.

rhbrink
12-09-2010, 08:34 AM
I just looked at the CBE website is that the 228-60? Looks too long for my rifle my Sako will not shoot the Lyman 225462 at all doesn't even like long 55 grains full gas check bullets, short 55's and down it's a tack driver.

Actually I think that I can improve on that group average considerably as I had one group that opened the average group size by a pretty good margin. I ran out of ammo as I only had about 40 survivor cases loaded. Going to get them annealed today plus some more that I dug up and TCFAN is kind of enough to send me some that he had so the next time I get to the range should be well stocked with ammo. This pretty fun shooting I might add, I can see me spending a whole lot more time shooting this rifle. And just to think a couple of years ago I offered up this rifle for sale or trade but no one seemed to think that it was worth much so I kept it sure glad that I did.

Richard

Bullshop
12-09-2010, 11:14 AM
The CBE I have I think is a .225/55. I said it looks like the NEI #3 but that was wrong. It is the #4 that it looks like but with a bit more meplate. It has a Loverin type body with multiple small lube grooves. It has proven to be a very satisfactory design.
Maybe I can get Jr to post a pic of it today. At 17 YO he is a bit hard to pin down especially since he has a drivers license and his own PU.

rhbrink
12-09-2010, 05:48 PM
I loaded up some more today hope to get to shoot more tomorrow, I shot up the last of the 2400 the last time I shot so gonna try H4227 this time. I did some measuring and more looking at CBE that does look like a good boolit but the page I looked at shows it as being a plain base is that the one you have? Also about .4" bearing length is about the max that the Sako will handle without doing some nose first sizing to squeeze down the front bands.

Bullshop
12-09-2010, 06:11 PM
No Sir my CBE mold is a gas check design. If you look at the NEI #4 its about the same but the NEI is pointy and the CBE has a little meplate. No luck yet catching JR but he is broke and out of gas so I know he is somewhere about.
I have used this boolit in Sako 222 and it shot very well. The Sako is the gun I used to see how fast I could go before the lube failed, this was when I was working on speed green.
I got to 3000 fps and the alloy failed but the lube didn't. Still had a smooth shiny bore but the accuracy dropped of badly. That's why I say the alloy failed.

jsizemore
12-09-2010, 07:16 PM
Is a Bator with a GC legal? Good excuse to get my rig ready early for groundhog/varmint season.

Bullshop
12-09-2010, 08:05 PM
I have two molds here that cast booits designed by Walley Bator. One is a 22 cal about 52gn and the other is a 35 cal about 280gn. One of them is legal for this match and one is not.
Remember when you send your targets include as much information as possible about the load , firearm, and sights and whatever else you can think of that may help someone else improve thier 22 performance.

Bullshop Junior
12-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Dad asked me to post these pics.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=3054
CBE 55gn GC

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=3055
Ranch Dog

NoZombies
12-10-2010, 12:43 AM
The Ranch Dog does look like a good design! I bet it cuts a nice hole in the target for easier scoring as well.

rhbrink
12-10-2010, 06:45 AM
Bullshop I just about bet that the bearing length of the CBE is to long for my Sako the max that it will handle is about .4" unless you would size down the front band which I don't have any way to do that yet. Can you measure the OAL of the boolit and the bearing length? Good looking boolit though I can see where it should be very accurate.

I like the looks of the Ranchdog bet it would be a great small game and light varmint thumper. Everyone of his designs have been great, very accurate, and hard hitters.

troy_mclure
12-12-2010, 03:44 AM
id be willing to play, i just dont have a mould for my only .22 centerfire. an ar57.

now if somebody would be willing to sell me 200 or so lubed 30-40gr .224 gc boolits id be in!

Bullshop
12-12-2010, 03:59 AM
Rats!!! I must have nearly 10 22 cal molds but not a one will drop a boolit that light.

rhbrink
You are right about the Ranch Dog mold. I got to whak a coyote with one through both shoulders and he just tipped over. It was shot from a hornet with 9.5gn h 4227.
I wanted to try to poke one in a caribous ear but didn't get the chance. The 375 Whelen did the deed on the caribou with our custom 370gn hard cast soft nose.
A solid hit through both shoulders literally blew both horns off. I picked up both horns a few feet away from the caribou. That is some real smackum!

troy_mclure
12-12-2010, 05:40 AM
so would a non telescopic red dot sight be in the iron sights class for 50yds?

rhbrink
12-12-2010, 07:26 AM
troy I don't have any idea what a ar57 is or what twist it has but there is not going to be many 30 to 40 grain cast boolits around if I was looking for a bullet I think that the Ranch Dog boolit would be one to look at. I would think that it would work in a wide variety of rifles and twist, just guessing.

troy_mclure
12-12-2010, 01:38 PM
ar57 is an ar15 variant chambered in 5.7x28/5.7fn.

best performance is from 40gr boolits.

Bullshop
12-12-2010, 02:01 PM
If you go to my site at www.bullshop.gunloads.com you will find a very good selection of 22 cal designs but nothing in the weight range you specified.
Just curious about the FN 5.7 do you know what twist it uses? You said best performance is with 40gn boolits did you mean bullets?
If boolits what mold yields a 40gn boolit.
There is currently a group buy going on from Swede Nelson for a 37gn boolit. I understand it will be available in GC, PB, and HP.

troy_mclure
12-12-2010, 03:27 PM
lol. i started that gb!

as far as i am aware there have been 3 people(who posted online) actually cast for the fn 5.7.

my ar57 has a 1-10" twist.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-12-2010, 03:42 PM
Well, I finally got around to casting some 22 bators.
I should get some of them loaded into some brass
I fired in the #3, so I can just neck size them.

a new problem... We have gotten about 32" of snow in the last ten days.
Now there is no way to get to the one range I shoot at 5 miles away til
the spring thaw. the other range I shoot at is 17 miles away.
I know they plow that one out, so we'll see if I can find time to
get there to shoot.
jon

Bullshop
12-12-2010, 03:46 PM
I was looking through a CDNN catalog today and saw some 5.7 ammo with a 26gn lead free bullet. I would almost bet that at 52gn the Ranch Dog boolit is a shorter length.
I have to wonder why such a fast twist if it is using such light bullets? It may well be the style of bullets that they are a VLD type and therefore long for the weight.
I took a special interest in the 5.7 cartridge when it first came out. The reason is that I was having trouble finding brass for my model 38 Cooper rifle in 22 CCM.
Dan Cooper told me that they were converting the rifles to the FN 5.7 cartridge.
Since then I discovered the Shroader bullet works in Sandiego Ca and have put up a good store of 22 CCM brass.
I did not want to go to the 5.7 because of the short neck.
Mr. Cooper didn't understand that I only shoot boolits in it and the issue involved with that.

troy_mclure
12-12-2010, 07:35 PM
the issue with heavier bullets(some shoot 50gr) is pressure spikes.

but i just ordered a .223 barrel, and upper. so i may have a gun soon!

what would be a good .223 mould for 1-9" twist.

Bullshop
12-12-2010, 10:42 PM
Swede Nelson did a design he called the RCBS clone. It is a bore rider design at about 60gn. If it will fit your mag it should do very well in that twist.
It groups very well in my 1/14" CCM but does show some wobble at 100 yards at the 1800 fps or so achievable with the cartridge and boolit weight.
I have a Savage 223 with a 1/9 and hope to try that boolit in it soon.
I likely wont make much progress this week as we are supposed to be -40 to -50 all week.

rhbrink
12-13-2010, 10:24 AM
I have wondered about the Savage with the 1/9 twist too seems really fast maybe too many rpm's for such a small boolit, be interested to know how that turns out.

I did get to get to the range to shoot again before this last blast of artic air hit had 4* this morning I know that would be a nice balmy day for Bullshop but for this ole boy sure puts a chill in my bones. I was shooting some H4227 this time and didn't shoot nearly as well as the 2400 so I went for some center shots instead of groups. How are you going to measure the center shots? From the center of target to edge of boolit hole or center of boolit hole. Do you then average that distance or add it up then what? Do you add it to the group average or add them then average just curious?

Bullshop
12-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Your trying to make this hard on me! To be honest I have not decided yet. Its one of those deals where I figured I would get there when I am there.
I was thinking something like from target center to boolit hole center then use that just as if it were one of the three shot targets measured from C to C then average all six targets for a single score.
So say if on a group target you shoot a .75" group and on the C to C you shoot a .75" from target center to BH center they would be the same value in your average.
I would also like to mention smallest individual target and smallest over all.

Ranch Dog
12-13-2010, 10:01 PM
Sorry I'm just getting to this guys. I'm right in the final third of our whitetail season with a lot a family in and out of the ranch. I quickly read through the post and what I understand is that: We will be using a "soup can" to trace a target. Shoot at 50-yards for receiver sights or 100-yards with scopes.

What are the dates of the match and where do we send the targets? If the close dates are beyond the end of hunting season, I will shoot my 218 Bee and 219 Zipper with my bullet.

Bullshop
12-13-2010, 10:09 PM
Ends on 3/1/11 Send targets with all pertinent load data to
The Bullshop
HC 62 box 5640
Delta Junction Alaska 99737

You wont be the only one shooting the Ranch Dog boolit.

AZ-Stew
12-13-2010, 11:02 PM
Is Ranch Dog right about the targets, or can we use any paper target?

It was about 80 degrees here today. Supposed to get down to the upper 60s by Thursday or Friday. Maybe it'll warm back up to good shooting weather by next week.

Regards,

Stew

Bullshop
12-13-2010, 11:55 PM
Any target will do. I mentioned the soup can because thats what I use. It makes about a 3" circle and when traced with a Sharpie King size the line is wide and black.
At 100 yards that makes a good target for scope or for iron sights at 50.
I do color in the whole circle for iron sights.
AZ-Stew
Man your killing me. You have to wait for it to warm up from 60F? Right now if you are at 60 above zero we have a 100 degree spread between there and here. I shot today but not for long.

NoZombies
12-15-2010, 02:04 AM
I'm really really hoping to get my little .22 wildcat going in time to use it for the competition...

I'll go shoot the hornet in the next few weeks to see what I can do with open sights in the mean time.

Bullshop
12-18-2010, 02:35 PM
Bwaaaaa bummer!!!!! Someone came in our shop and bought the Ruger hornet I was using for this match. Bwaaaaa! It was a shop gun and for sale, I was just using it.
Bummer! Well he put up the price and left with it so now I have to start over. Yesterday I tried a few shots with the NOE RCBS clone and it showed some possibility.
This is a 60gn bore rider and I tried it in a Savage 223 with 1/9" twist. Of 10 shots most were in a tight cluster with two out to about 2". This rifle is an older Savage Tactical model 20" heavy barrel. We sold it last summer but it got traded back last week. It was being used with bullets only and I didn't bother cleaning it before switching over to boolits. That may account for the two flyer's. I intend to begin working with this one and see what happens.
BTW Our temp was about -40 and the load that I tries was with the 60gn NOE, 9gn Alliant Steel and the Federal #100 SP primer. The Alliant Steel is a very bulky flake powder with about the same burn rate as 2400. It fills the case better and gives good ignition even in very cold temp. It meters poorly from a powder dump but does so well in the cold I feel it worth having to weigh charges.

rhbrink
12-18-2010, 07:40 PM
Bet that Savage will out shoot that Old Ruger any day if you get the 1/9 twist figured out. Good to know about the Alliant Steel, I just got some more 2400 today so can go back to work on my Sako maybe improve on my groups a little, definitily need to imrove on the one shot targets. weather is suppose to get back up into the 40's next week if the wind doesn't blow 40 mph I'll burn some more powder.

Bullshop
12-18-2010, 11:43 PM
We are in the 40's too only in the minus column.
We have an outside thermometer that reads to -40 then if it is colder than that the dial starts in the + side again at 120 and moves backwards. This week the dial was reading 110 for a couple days.
I tried a few shots today with the 9" twist Savage with the 9gn Steel and the Lyman target design and it looks like that will do well too. Yesterday I said it was a 223 but that was wrong it is actually a 223 AI.

Bullshop
12-19-2010, 12:08 PM
For additional incentive I will put up a prize of a box of boolits of your choice from our site. The prize will be awarded by drawing from a pool of names of all entrants.
Just send in your targets good or bad and you have as much chance to win as anyone.
There now all the more reason to join in.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-19-2010, 12:25 PM
Bwaaaaa bummer!!!!! Someone came in our shop and bought the Ruger hornet I was using for this match. Bwaaaaa! It was a shop gun and for sale, I was just using it.
Bummer! Well he put up the price and left with it so now I have to start over.

Bullshop,
what was the price ?
Jon

PS my 22H shooting will procede once some of this 30+ inches of snow melts. Looks like 8 to 10" more snow tomorrow for the Vikings Monday night game...they are playing in Minneapolis in an OUTDOOR statium for the first time in 29 years...and it's gonna snow !!!

Bullshop
12-19-2010, 01:19 PM
Jon
You mean the price of the hornet I sold? It had a 6x Lyman AA scope on it and I told him I would sell at new dealer cost minus shipping for a ss ruger which is about $550.00
Maybe you need to invest in a pair of snow shoes.

troy_mclure
12-19-2010, 05:05 PM
bah, im getting a couple of moulds, but no barrel for my .223.

Bullshop
12-19-2010, 08:25 PM
Troy
Go online and find some sabots then you can use those boolits in the match from any 30 cal rifle.
I have a Kimber 30/06 that shoots perty darn good with boolits in sabots, and fast!!!

troy_mclure
12-19-2010, 08:28 PM
hummmmm, that may work! i just swapped my savage 111 from 7mm mag to .30 '06.

NoZombies
12-23-2010, 04:23 AM
This is the target I plan to use. I've attached it here, it's a printable PDF file.

I like this one for several reasons. If someone else can use it, then enjoy!

troy_mclure
12-23-2010, 05:02 AM
allright! ive got the moulds, ive got the alloy, ive got the barrel(tomorrow), ive got the glass.

just need the checks, lube, sizing die, and bipod.

if i have to ill load 1 at a time.

JonB_in_Glencoe
12-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Bullshop,
Yeah, the ruger. I was just curious of what the markup is, that far north ?

I've got snowshoes and I could use the workout.
Just maybe...
Jon

Ranch Dog
12-23-2010, 09:02 AM
For additional incentive I will put up a prize of a box of boolits of your choice from our site. The prize will be awarded by drawing from a pool of names of all entrants.
Just send in your targets good or bad and you have as much chance to win as anyone.
There now all the more reason to join in.

Awe heck, I can't be outdone! I will offer a second prize under the conditions that Bull Shop has offered. A mold of your choice from my current inventory.

I like the drawing, as every target is an entry. Bragging rights for the actual winner but every shooter has a chance to win the prizes!

troy_mclure
12-23-2010, 11:50 AM
oh, and just fyi for you northern guys, its hovering around 73f here. lol

rhbrink
12-23-2010, 12:10 PM
Wow! Ranch Dog between you and Bullshop that should get some people interested, if it dosen't I don't know what will.

troy I hope the wind is blowing at least 25+. Thats what happens in my neighborhood every time the temps get up on the upper thirtys dang south wind gets to kick'n up too. The little boolits can sure get blowed around a bunch. One thing that I noticed though is that they are somewhat predictable just hard to figure out how much to hold off for the wind drift, never seem to hold enough. Heck if it was easy everybody would be in on this one.

Bullshop
12-23-2010, 02:21 PM
NoZombies
That is a good target and will make finding center much easier and precise for me to score.
Ranch Dog
That is a very generous offer and I thank you for it. I was going to leave my name out of the drawing but now I think I will put it in, about ten times!!! Just Kidding.
Troy Mclure
Thats just mean!!!! Remember I am the target scorer. All bribes will be considered.

scrapcan
12-23-2010, 03:21 PM
Ranch Dog and Bullshop,

You two will get the interest going for sure. I may have to try the 22-250 barrel and then put the 308 barrel on and try it with sabots. Naw, just the 22-250 will be enough aggravation!

troy_mclure
12-24-2010, 07:59 AM
so was it ever decided if a non mag red dot counts as iron sights for 50yds?

rhbrink
12-24-2010, 09:51 AM
Ranch Dog and Bullshop,

You two will get the interest going for sure. I may have to try the 22-250 barrel and then put the 308 barrel on and try it with sabots. Naw, just the 22-250 will be enough aggravation!

manleyjt, I use to shoot the Lyman 225462 in a 22-250 and thought that it shot rather well. But that was 30 some years ago and probably wasn't trying to put all the boolits in the same hole. It was plently good enough for minute of beer can, killed a few squirrels and a ditch cougar or two.

Bullshop
12-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Troy
I dont know you decide.

troy_mclure
12-24-2010, 05:37 PM
well i say yes cause i have a gun with no iron sights, but a red dot! lol

NoZombies
12-26-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm glad this thing is taking off! I'll have to start working more with the hornet, I'm not sure the wildcat will happen between now and when I need to have it done for the contest...

Bullshop
12-26-2010, 11:03 PM
Taking off! I think so I just ordered a 221 fire ball barrel for a Savage 110.
I also won the bid at auction arms for a Win hi wall 22 hornet. Not only that but I dug out a barrel I have had stashed away for several years. Its for an old Savage 112 V single shot and it is chambered for the 22 BR short. It is the 22 BR with the shoulder pushed back .150" from standard and the neck trimmed back to standard length.
Taking off! Perhaps my sanity is taking off.
BTW remember that Savage tactical in 223 AI with 9" twist that got traded in last week on the Ruger hornet. I have been shooting it with the first NOE 22 mold and its doing OK but nothing outstanding. Its shooting in the .7 to .8 area but that wont win top honors. The twist seems to be the detractor. I have been working with near full power loads but cant seem to do better than .7's and .8's. Before I quit this gun I will try some reduced loads with fast powders. I even tried duplexing with a 2.7 gn kicker of Alliant Steel and the rest of the case filled with AA 3100. Same story .7's and .8's. Maybe one screamer at just under .5 but not the average.
Next plan is to try the 22 BR short with a 1/14" twist. I have to get that barrel screwed on and hope for warmer weather.
The BR short case has about the same volume as the 223 AI case. A powder charge that fills one to the base of the neck does the same with the other. One is long and skinny and the other short and fat. The big difference will be the twist.

NHlever
12-27-2010, 07:39 AM
One of the things that was done by the customer service folks at Ruger when someone complained about the accuracy of a Hornet was to fit an oversized breech block. Perhaps the same results could be obtained by opening the necks up to 6mm, and then carefully running the sizing die down to achieve minimum headspace. It worked for me with one Ruger bolt action Hornet, but the other didn't seem to care either way.......

rhbrink
12-27-2010, 09:50 AM
"Taking Off" This is getting serious I can see that! I even bought a mold one of the extra NOE 70 grain .223 boolits and don't even have a barrel suitable for it, but I'm working on that. I would like to find a well broke in Savage .223 barrel in the 1/9 inch twist that I could screw into a Savage model 12 thats just collecting dust. If I had to go custom I think that 1/10 twist reamed for a .222 with that nice long neck would be the ultimate 22 boolit shooter. Maybe the 10" twist would handle up to 70 grains boolits and still not be twisted too fast to make it a problem to shoot accurately. Any ideas anybody?

scrapcan
12-27-2010, 11:59 AM
Well I am glad to hear of the drawing for the prize. The quoted groups are going to be a real chase to match, let alone better.

NoZombies
12-27-2010, 05:41 PM
Yeah, the drawings make entering exciting. Winning would be exciting too, of course, but it's worthwhile to enter, even if you're not gonna do well in the standings.

Bullshop
12-27-2010, 09:32 PM
rhbrink
I have a Stevens 200 with the factory 223 sporter weight barrel with a 1/9" twist. I may be taking that off soon so may be available if your interested. It shoots great but I just want to try something else on it. My idea is to go with a factory varmint contour in 221 fire ball but at the minimum legal length 16" and a 1/14" twist. The idea is to minimize barrel vibration and boolit dwell time.
I was thinking that we should have at least three prizes, three winners by drawing so will put up another prize of a box of boolits from any of the Ranch Dog molds.
So as of right now the prizes are,
#1 from Ranch Dog your choice of one of his molds (great prize)
#2 a box of boolits of your choice from The Bullshop (see boolit list here www.bullshop.gunloads.com )
#3 a box of boolits from any of Ranch Dogs molds, use same link as above

troy_mclure
12-28-2010, 06:40 PM
got my ar .223 upper assembled. now i just have to gast up some boolits(waiting on my gator checks) and prep brass.

NVScouter
01-03-2011, 08:38 PM
First thanks Bullshop. I stole your 22 Hornet RD load and used it with the 22 Bator. I only loaded 10 rounds and I always fire the first one into the dirt just to check pressure/case condition. 22Bator mould 56g bullet, sized to .225, CCI SRP 8.5g IMR 4227.

I did mess up a bit as a couple weekends ago I cast up 100 Bator, and chose the best 50 to use in this test...then I missplaced them and had to use 10 bullets in my "other" pile. The last 3 were only LLA lubed and only about BN 12-15 instead of my usual .225 BN of 25. Pan lubed with my own recipe (with the exception if the last 3. Hornady GCs hand placed then sized in a LEE .225 sizer. All bullets were crimped to the forward edge of the first lube bad.

All shots were within about 4 minutes at a warm 1*F with no wind at 100 yards. Groups were shot prone in my CZ 527 American using the set trigger.

Group 1 bottom righ, clean barrel: .55" ish I say is becuase my calipers are a bit tweaked.

Group 2 bottom left: 1.75 No idea why it opened up, probobly shooter error.

Group 3 top right: .75"

Group 4 with the LLA bullets 2.1"

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f10/NVScouter/22hornet22b0001.jpg

This is the best this rifle has ever shot with Cast. My old load of 11g of Lil'gun would consistantly do about 1.5" at 100 yards and I called it good. With J bullets this rifle makes little clover leaf one-hole groups.

There was a bit of leading as i tried j-bullets after these and the first 6 shots were about 2" groups then it went back to itty bitty groups.

I cast up 300 more from my saved special alloy, weeded out about 100 then preheated and pan lubed in my lube. I then weeked out about 25 more post sizing. So I have plenty of boolits for future shooting/testing. I may submit this target but I'm going to try for a better over all average, at least for the left target.

Any ideas on how to improve consistancy besides the above? I was shooting with gloves/jacket/sunglasses since it was nippy out and bright. I know they dont help.

Bullshop
01-03-2011, 11:38 PM
Some good shooing right there! That lower right is a screamer!
One thing that always seems to improve my hornet consistency with boolits is the use of Federal #100 small pistol primers. Not just any SP primers but specifically Fed #100's more often than not will improve my group average.
Oh no I've given away my secret weapon.

scrapcan
01-04-2011, 12:39 PM
ok now cough up the secrets of wonderment with the 22-250!

Bullshop
01-04-2011, 02:10 PM
I have not yet attempted to shoot boolits in my 22/250 as it has a 1/6.5" twist.
I have not yet been enough overwhelmed with masochism to try.
However when my new 70gn NOE mold arrives I may be pushed over the edge.

RugerFan
01-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Dang, I think I'll have to rejuvenate my AR-15 cast project. I had been tinkering with Lyman 225462 boolits (pure lino) and light doses of Unique. Accuracy was not spectacular, so some tweaking is in order.

NoZombies
01-09-2011, 04:46 AM
Of course, now my printer's busted.... So I might have to buy targets before going to the range in the next few days...

Bummer. Hope it's worth it!

NoZombies
01-17-2011, 12:43 AM
Is it okay for me to make 2 entries? I'd like to shoot the rifle, and I'd also like to enter with my CF .22 revolver.

I don't mind shooting the revolver at 50 yards, I'm not sure how it'll do at 100.

You could just put my name in the hat once for the drawings, I just want to use both guns for the challenge.

Bullshop
01-17-2011, 02:25 AM
Yes Sir that will be just fine. I may do the same with a couple rifles because I just want to show a wide contrast in loads to net similar results.
Remember to include as much load data as possible. This is about learning and I think there will be many more watching than participating.

NoZombies
01-17-2011, 08:30 PM
I shot the revolver today, and it was no-where near what I want, but it was okay.

I shot at 100 yards, and need to work with the gun and develop better loads., I was just fire-forming today.

BT Sniper
01-23-2011, 12:43 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just stumbled onto this thread and read the first page then fast fowarded to the last here. LOL! The change in tone from Bull shop's posts from then to now is Great! Skeptical at first and unsure to total excitement!

Love this sight! I need to get back and read pages 2-5 now :)

I see you guys are even offering up prizes too! Heck I don't even have a 22 cal or shoot cast yet but I would offer a box of any caliber of my swaged bullets to up the pot just cause this looks like such a good time.

Good shooting guys!

BT

Bullshop
01-23-2011, 01:57 PM
NoZombies
What is the cartridge your revolver is chambered for? I also have a 22 CF revolver. It is an old model Ruger single six converted to CF and chambered in 22CCM.

BT Sniper
Maybe this is a good excuse to take to the spousal bargaining table for a 22 boolit gun.
If that dont work out maybe someone could proxy shoot for you.
Thanks ever so much for offering up still another prize. I will PM you about that.

NoZombies
01-23-2011, 02:55 PM
Bullshop,

My revolver is in .224 Harvey K-Chuck. It's essentially a K-hornet with a smidgeon shorter neck. It's a pain to load with cast, but so far the results have been okay. I'm staying in the black at 100 yards with that target I linked to earlier in the thread. It's built on a 50's vintage S&W K-22.

I have the dilemma that my revolver has a scope on it, though it's only 1.3x. And I can't decide whether to shoot it at 50 yards or 100. I feel that since it's a revolver, the low power scope doesn't do much to aid in making the shots at long range, and 50 yards would probably be fair compared to the guys shooting at 100 with 12x scopes on rifles, but then, the game is for 100 yards with optics and 50 for open sights...

I can send my 3 best 100 yard targets with the revolver, and not feel too embarrassed, but I still don't have anything that's good for shots to the center. The groups just kinda seem all over the paper. sometimes I'll nail the center, but only after I've already put another 4 or 5 shots elsewhere in the target. I must have shot 300 rounds thus far trying to get good results, but I've got another load to try, and I'll shoot that in the next week or so. I'll plan to set up 4 targets at a time, and shoot for center. If I'm too far from center, I'll just add two more to the target, and hope to improve on the 3 shot targets I've already got.

I guess that's why they call it a challenge, right?

TxBaylea
01-23-2011, 08:10 PM
Fellows!

You have just given me another incentive to press on with my rehabilitation. I fell last April and broke my hip. Second I had a knee replacement right after Christmas.

Just getting out to the range will be a challenge.

I would be using one of my 218Bee lever guns - one is a Winchester with a bolt mounted peep; the other is Browning with standard open sights. If I can get an aperture with a correction lens I will put a peep on the Browning also.

I haven't loaded for the 218Bee in over 10 years so will have dig for my old data.

No promises but I will be trying hard and watching here to see how this comes together. Good luck to everyone.

Vernon

Bullshop
01-23-2011, 11:06 PM
Vernon
I had one of the Brownings in 218 bee for a few years. It was a wonderfully accurate rifle. I think I may still have all the load data for it.
The one thing I remember about that rifle that seemed unusual was that it shot its best if the chambered cartridge did not exert any pressure against the breach face.
In other words I had to full length size cases and keep the boolits from touching the lands on a chambered round.
Do hope you join the fun!

stubshaft
01-23-2011, 11:19 PM
The targets that I normally use have two seperate aiming points. Would it be possible to shoot just three of them with the group on one portion and the center shot on another? The aiming points consist of a diamond and a crosshair thru a black dot.

TxBaylea
01-23-2011, 11:39 PM
Vernon
I had one of the Brownings in 218 bee for a few years. It was a wonderfully accurate rifle. I think I may still have all the load data for it.
The one thing I remember about that rifle that seemed unusual was that it shot its best if the chambered cartridge did not exert any pressure against the breach face.
In other words I had to full length size cases and keep the boolits from touching the lands on a chambered round.
Do hope you join the fun!Bullshop

Thanks for the note. The Browning is unfired - I picked it up to allow me to retire the Winchester - its value is climbing. Things happened such as a move, etc. to prevent my playing with my guns. If you can find your load data for the Browning, let me know. I will see what I can swap you for it. I hope that life goes good for you.

I always wanted to make a driving trip to AK but life did not work out that way. My adventure was working on the NASA space program.

Vernon

Bullshop
01-23-2011, 11:46 PM
The targets that I normally use have two seperate aiming points. Would it be possible to shoot just three of them with the group on one portion and the center shot on another? The aiming points consist of a diamond and a crosshair thru a black dot.


Sounds OK to me.

Bullshop
01-23-2011, 11:58 PM
Say I got to try that 221 barrel today. It was -35F so a little tough to do my or its best but it did look promising.
It is a 1/14" twist and I was pleasantly surprised at how well it shoots the first NOE design, the 64gn FN.
Weather is supposed to warm some soon they are saying so I hope to run a couple 100 rounds through it to break it in. A case full of 4895 was shooting at or slightly under an inch at 100 yards from this spanking new barrel so when I can get some tweaked loads figured I think I might like it.
That 1885 Win 22 hornet I mentioned buying turned out to be a 2R Lovell. I got some of the recent run of Jamison brass and finally surrendered to the temptation yesterday and ordered dies from C&H 4D. I measured the twist at 1/16" so looks like only light boolits for that one. I sure hope I can make some holes in paper with that one before this match ends.

Bullshop
01-24-2011, 08:34 PM
221 bares fruit!!!
It warmed up to about zero today so in between customers I got a little shooting in.
The little 221 sang her song today with back to back groups of .602" and a screamer .251"
The load that spawned the sweet music was 17gn Reloader 7 with a cci 400 and the first NOE designed boolit at 64gn.
So far about 50 rounds through the barrel.
Did I mention that I really like this little 221?

NoZombies
01-24-2011, 08:57 PM
That sounds GREAT bullshop :)

I remember having a good load for the K-hornet that was with RL7, but I can't find the info anyplace right now. and it was for a Jbullet anyways... But thanks for the reminder to look for that Data again... ;)

stubshaft
01-25-2011, 12:34 AM
221 bares fruit!!!
It warmed up to about zero today so in between customers I got a little shooting in.
The little 221 sang her song today with back to back groups of .602" and a screamer .251"
The load that spawned the sweet music was 17gn Reloader 7 with a cci 400 and the first NOE designed boolit at 64gn.
So far about 50 rounds through the barrel.
Did I mention that I really like this little 221?

Was that your 4,000th post? If so congrats!

Wish I never sold my 221FB. Now all I have to work with is a 223 and a 219 Wasp. A little overbore but I'll git er done for the shoot.

Bullshop
01-25-2011, 02:57 AM
Hmmm that wasp aught to be interesting. What action is it on? I think I have about 50pc of newly formed brass somewhere. What ya trade for them?

OH OH !!! before I forget member bt sniper has offered up more prizes for the drawing.
the list of prizes is now,
#1 Ranch Dog mold of choice from list
#2 box of Bullshop boolits choice from list at site
#3 box of boolits from any Ranch Dog mold
#4 box of 190gn JHP 40 cal bullets swagged bt bt sniper
#5 box of 250gn JHP 44 cal bullets swagged by bt sniper
The pot thickens!

stubshaft
01-25-2011, 06:27 AM
It's a Bullberry 23" custom on a Contender frame. Thanks for the offer of a trade for the brass but I just got finished neck turning 50 pcs. Never shot cast out of it but it shoots 3/4" @ 100 with fireforming loads and condoms. I figured I'd start out with the standard 10gr. of 2400 with a 55 either Bator or 225415.

Thanks for putting this shoot together. Seems to have generated ALOT of interest.

Bullshop
01-25-2011, 11:56 AM
I once got in a trade a Bullberry carbine barrel for Contender chambered in 22 wmr.
Since the contender switches so easily from rf to cf and back I re chambered it to 22 CCM. I had my 22 CCM reamer cut with a 1% lead especially for cast.
That barrel was extremely accurate with boolits, and since the cartridges are very close dimensionally it would still fir the 22 wrm's. It shot the ccm way better than the wrm though. Have since sold off all my contender stuff.
I just recently got an Encore in trade, my first. Its in 223 and even though I was not impressed with the look of it I have to say I am warming up to it.

stubshaft
01-25-2011, 02:55 PM
That's what I'll be putting the 223 through. But in a 15" barrel. The gun that I think would be primo to shoot in this match would be a 22 Hornet Sako. But like a fool I sold it years ago. Isn't legal to hunt with in Hawaii unless you are hunting hogs with dogs, and if your hunting with dogs a knife is all you need.

Regardless I'll still be able to put in a couple of entries. They may not be screamers but I think that I'll still be in the hunt.

JonB_in_Glencoe
01-25-2011, 05:49 PM
I finally got to the range this morning.
The targets are from the Rimfire Rifle league I use to shoot.
the large dark rings are about 1.875" in Dia.
I'm not sure if these will be the targets I submit,
there is still time to get better results.
these are 50 yard, Iron site, most off hand, a few I rested against a tree.
sometimes a tree helps, sometimes it don't ???
the benches were covered with a foot of icy/crusty snow.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1576.jpg

BT Sniper
01-25-2011, 06:39 PM
Man that looks like fun. Good shooting Jon. Glad the pic is indoors, I thought at first glance you had somthing against cats.

Bullshop
01-25-2011, 10:44 PM
Nice shootin Jon! If that is a first ever you dont have much room left for improvement.
Your going to make the rest of us look bad when you get the hang of it.

Greg
01-26-2011, 12:00 PM
JonB-

I really like those targets. Are they available for purchase somewhere ?

JonB_in_Glencoe
01-26-2011, 03:11 PM
Greg,
Someone in our rifle League prepared them on a CAD program or something.
I grabed one and had the local printing house copy a bunch
on 8.5" x11" card stock paper,
so I could practice on the same targets we used in the League.

that's the history, I realize that don't help you out.
I don't have a scanner.
I suppose the only way you could get a copy is if
you want to pay postage to have me send you a copy.
Jon

Bullshop Junior
01-27-2011, 03:44 AM
Maybe I need to get my 22/250 out............

troy_mclure
01-27-2011, 05:15 AM
ok, im gonna have to get some brass done.

itll be my first time loading .223, reloading for an ar, using my new to me lyman lubrisizer, etc...

i really hate doing small batches tho. i have 2200 peices of .223 brass that need sized and trimmed and flared, and primed. all on a single stage. lol

Greg
01-27-2011, 12:57 PM
JonB-

a message is headed your way...

Three-Fifty-Seven
01-30-2011, 11:22 PM
If anybody needs a target . . . I use this for rimfire . . . I don't have a 22 cf . . . yet!

http://www.southpondcottages.com/metaleer/10Joe-.pdf

JonB_in_Glencoe
01-31-2011, 09:04 AM
Shawn,
I like this target, very similar to the Gopher campfire target I use, EXCEPT tighter scoring in the center.
I'll add this to my files.
thanks,
Jon

10 Spot Terminator
02-05-2011, 04:27 PM
.22 cal. shoot off huh ?

Looks like I better get busy castin an sizin and workin up some loads with the
mould I just got an see if my Tikka .223 will be worthy of the call . Love a good
friendly competition . Should be a bevy of good load data come out of this if
nuthin esle and a good time !

TCFAN
02-07-2011, 10:49 PM
Ok my targets are in the mail such as they are.................Terry

Bullshop
02-18-2011, 11:10 PM
Its been a little while since I was here last so I want to mention that we have a couple weeks left to get our targets shot and sent in.
The end date for shooting is 3/1/11. I will allow until the 10Th for targets to arrive then I will score them and post the results.
This week I received targets from two members and to say I am impressed with their performance would be a gross understatement.
Please remember to include as much detail about the load as possible. I would like this to be educational for all watching.
I am ashamed to say I have not yet completed my shooting for this. I do have an impressive list of excuses for it including but not limited to, #1 sold my match gun, #2 scope failure sent back for repair, #3 new/old rifle problem getting tools and components.
Have just in the last couple days overcome obstacle #3 and now have the 22 R2 Lovell up and running. It is proving to be a challenge with a 1/16" twist, .223" groove diameter, and about a two caliber tapered lead to full depth rifling.
I shot it today and think I have a handle on it but it took some rather unconventional loading technique. I am shooting the Ranch Dog boolit unsized at about .226" w/o gas check in unsized cases and seating only the check shank as a heeled design. This loooong length gets me some engagement at the front end and seems to line things up pretty good. A case very nearly full of Trail Boss lighted by the mildest primer I have found the Rem 1 1/2 has things doing pretty good.
I dont expect to equal the targets I have received so far in the mail but by far this old Winchester from the 30's is providing the most enjoyment I have had since I started this match. Its hard to pin down why it punches my pleasure button but its something to do with bringing past and present together.
It has been fun!

JonB_in_Glencoe
02-19-2011, 12:43 PM
Well I got called back to work yesterday, I probably
won't get any shooting in before the end of the month.

I wasn't able to beat my first time out referenced in post 134.
So, I am sending one of those targets out today.
Jon

PatMarlin
02-21-2011, 10:59 PM
Darn- wish I had time to get in on this. Maybe-

troy_mclure
02-22-2011, 12:58 PM
ive got some boolits cast up, but my lubrisizer broke down, dont think ill make it.

PatMarlin
02-22-2011, 01:15 PM
Bet someone here would be happy to size em' up for you Troy. What broke?

scrapcan
02-22-2011, 02:23 PM
I am still trying to get to the range. I will try to be part of this if possible.

PatMarlin
02-22-2011, 03:30 PM
We got a lot of snow for water drop.

troy_mclure
02-22-2011, 08:18 PM
Bet someone here would be happy to size em' up for you Troy. What broke?

the piston in my lyman 45 broke. ive ordered a new one, should be here in a week.

Bullshop
02-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Since I have started to receive some targets and so I wont be overwhelmed by having to post them all at once I am going to start posting some of the entries.
If your entry is posted and you want to send more before the end go right ahead and send them. I will try to have everything posted by March 15 unless someone begs me to hold out a day or two longer because there targets are in the mail.
Please done be discouraged if your targets are not as good as what is posted. Remember we are going to share a lot of good load data with this and the donated prizes will be by drawing from a list of all entrants. You can win even if you loose.
FYI all the entries received so far have beat me. So here we go. Groups are C to C.

rhbrink
222 Rem mag--Sako L461 Vixen--1/14" twist
Lyman 225415 @ .225" Linotype --LBT blue lube
10.5gn 2400 -- Federal SR primer -- Simons 2.5X10
Three shot group -- .502", .290", .539"
Close to center -- .214", .159", .060"
Score average .294"
Comments -- wanna sell the Sako? WOW!!!

stubshaft
Encore 15" 223
Bator @ .225" 49.6gn --case Rem --10.2gn 2400 --WW SP primer
alloy 70/30 --Felix lube
Three shot group
.368", .567", .567"
close to center
.519", .194", .369"
Score average,-- .431"
Comments - also very well done!

stubshaft entry #2
22K hornet encore 24" MGM SS barrel 12X Leupold
RP case, Magtech SP primer, 11.6gn 680 BR, Lyman 225415 in 50/50 pure/lino quenched at 53.8gn, felix lube
3 shot group, .313", .583", .413"
center .262", .530", 550"
score average .442"
comments - that is one smokin hornet!

TCFAN
Rem Mod 788 cal 222 -- LYMAN 225415 HP -- lubed in an RCBS .228" die with Lars 2500+
sized in a Lee push through @ .225" with Hornady check weigh to + or - .1gn
New Rem brass --21.7gn Win 748 thrown with RCBS charge master -- velocity apx. 2550 fps -- WW SP primers
three shot group
1.059", 1.097", .913"
Center
.427", .104", .105"
score average
.618"
Comments - well done also

Bullshop
1885 Win 2R Lovell 15X Unertal
Jamison brass fireformed unsized -- Ranch Dog boolit in 6ww/1mono quenched sized/lubed in a .228" die with Gator check weight sorted --speed green lube --- CCI # 400 primer --- 14.7gn Norma #200 powder weighed
3 shot -- 1.166" , .737" , .395"
center -- .586" , .583" , .495"
average score -- .660"
Comments - not too good not too bad
new to me rifle and I think in time I will learn and improve.

JonB in Glencoe
22 Hornet--Ruger #3
53gr Lee Bator GC @ .225" WW/3% Tin --Dip lubed with Domminator
6.3gr Lil-gun -- Winchester sr primer -- OAL 1.610" - Bullet Aprox .015" Off lands.
Three shot group -- 1.156", .581", 1.367"
Close to center -- .220", .306", .558"
Score average .698"

BS Jr.
Stevens 200 with an A&B barrel in 221 fireball 1/14" twist, 10x Falcon optics
RP case, cci 400 primer, 16gn Scott 4197 powder, Lyman target boolit 6ww/1mono quenched, (new) BS no tak lube @ .225", gator check
3 shot -1.246", .911", .628"
center - .285", .831", .618"
score average - .753"
comments - well done grasshopper

rugerfan
DPMS ar15 223
16" barrel,- 1/9" twist
NC star 3x9 scope, 11gn 2400 ( does not cycle action)
Lyman 225462 57gn drops .227", lubed in .228", linotype, Jakes Scarlet Ceresin lube, Hornady GC, LC brass
3 shot - 1.671", 1.121", 1.539"
center - .824", 1.002", 1.653"
score average - 1.301"
comments - a good honest effort well done

Greg
Win 70 heavy BBL 223 Rem, Bushnell 6x24
boolit,NEI 22-54-GC (60gn) alloy-62-6-2 AC @ .225" Gator check
nose diameter .220" BHN-12 - Lube Apache Blue,
Powder- 23.2gn IMR-4007 -2250 fps-brass Nato, 45*F
three shot group- 1.628", 1.390", 1.624"
center- 1.008", 1.410", 1.267"
score average - 1.388"
Comments - Respectable performance, might make a darn good turkey load to about 300 yards.

So far, AMAZING!!! When I was a kid the jacketed bullet bench rest shooters were shooting these type of groups. Now with all the help found at this site it is done with boolits and run of the mill sporters. AMAZING!

Bullshop
02-24-2011, 03:12 PM
The end draws near for this match so today I am going to get in some practice for it.
Ready, here goes,
It was too cold
It was too windy
My eyes were watering
My scope broke, no really
I wasn't feeling good
I had the hiccups
We had an earth quake, or Tina made beans again
How am I doing ? This practicing isn't as bad as I thought it would be.

PatMarlin
02-24-2011, 03:34 PM
It's snowing outside ...:groner:

scrapcan
02-24-2011, 03:39 PM
You forgot a good excuse,

I had to go to work on the nice days and the ones I had off were, well all of the above.

stubshaft
02-24-2011, 04:52 PM
I tried to get the K-hornet to shoot decent groups yesterday and it just wouldn't cooperate. It looks like a batch of defective primers, so I bought some new Magtech Small Pistol primers and hopefully get a chance to try again tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll threaten it with selling it to someone who shoots ONLY Moly bullets!

JonB_in_Glencoe
02-24-2011, 08:20 PM
Stubshaft,
you better not use any of bullshops excuses...I mean it !
4 days ago, I was shoveling 20" of new snow :(
Jon

stubshaft
02-24-2011, 09:14 PM
Jon,
Yesterday while at the range it was raining so hard they had island wide Flash Flood warnings posted.

The "VOG" (smoke from the volcanic eruption) was so thick that the target was only half visible so the groups were twice as large!:violin:

GabbyM
02-25-2011, 01:16 AM
Spent all day mounting optics on my 22's.
I’ll get this shot in our 35* temps.

Is there an iron sight division like was chatted about on the first page?

With the scores posted I’m not holding out for a victory with heavy rifle optics. With my 12 twist 223.

Bullshop
02-25-2011, 03:52 PM
I got Jr. to help me with a pic of the rifle I used for the match. This is an 1885 Win in 2R Lovell
BTW I just posted my score

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=3466

Ranch Dog
02-26-2011, 12:44 AM
I'm trying to get my rear in gear to shoot the match. That Zipper calls me a name every time I walk through the reloading room! There has been quite a bit going on but I'm working towards it.

stubshaft
02-26-2011, 02:05 AM
Real pretty rifle Bullshop.

Drove 36 miles to the range today to find out it was closed.

Bullshop
02-26-2011, 02:41 AM
Michael you can tell that Zipper if its too unhappy there and ever runs away from home it will find safe haven here.
stubshaft
You will have to do like I used to do at the log camps. Set up on the beach at low tide. I used to shoot across an inlet but could only walk across at low tide.

stubshaft
02-26-2011, 03:42 AM
LOL - The idjits in this state want to ban toy guns for children until they turn 18. Imagine me taking a gun to the beach.

JonB_in_Glencoe
02-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Jon,
Yesterday while at the range it was raining so hard they had island wide Flash Flood warnings posted.

The "VOG" (smoke from the volcanic eruption) was so thick that the target was only half visible so the groups were twice as large!:violin:

:bigsmyl2:
thanks stub...makes me feel better
:bigsmyl2:

Bullshop Junior
02-26-2011, 04:49 PM
More results!

JonB in Glencoe
22 Hornet--Ruger #3
53gr Lee Bator GC @ .225" WW/3% Tin --Dip lubed with Domminator
6.3gr Lil-gun -- Winchester sr primer -- OAL 1.610" - Bullet Aprox .015" Off lands.
Three shot group -- 1.156", .581", 1.367"
Close to center -- .220", .306", .558"
Score average .698"

Three-Fifty-Seven
02-26-2011, 09:17 PM
More results!

JonB in Glencoe
22 Hornet--Ruger #3
53gr Lee Bator GC @ .225" WW/3% Tin --Dip lubed with Domminator
6.3gr Lil-gun -- Winchester sr primer -- OAL 1.610" - Bullet Aprox .015" Off lands.
Three shot group -- 1.156", .581", 1.367"
Close to center -- .220", .306", .558"
Score average .6.98"

Got an "extra" (.)

Wish I had a 22 centerfire . . .

Bullshop Junior
02-26-2011, 11:07 PM
Got an "extra" (.)

Wish I had a 22 centerfire . . .
Oh, Thanks. I took it out.

stubshaft
02-27-2011, 08:32 PM
Today was my last chance for romance with the K-Hornet. Looked like the 225415 was starting to get in the zone and even the wind died down to about 5 mph. Fired about 10 shots to condition the bore and check the zero and notice some unusual fliers. I say unusual because I weigh each boolit to .1 gr. and use a 4X magnifyer to inspect the boolts. A closer inspection of the cases revealed what the problem was. They were plumb worn out. Got a couple of decent groups and will send in one target tomorrow but the shots on center were not even close.

Oh well, had alot of fun and frustration. At least I will be entered in the drawing!

Bullshop Junior
02-28-2011, 03:43 PM
I gave up on my 22/250.....Not worth wasting the powder.

PatMarlin
02-28-2011, 04:21 PM
Today was my last chance for romance with the K-Hornet. Looked like the 225415 was starting to get in the zone and even the wind died down to about 5 mph. Fired about 10 shots to condition the bore and check the zero and notice some unusual fliers. I say unusual because I weigh each boolit to .1 gr. and use a 4X magnifyer to inspect the boolts. A closer inspection of the cases revealed what the problem was. They were plumb worn out. Got a couple of decent groups and will send in one target tomorrow but the shots on center were not even close.

Oh well, had alot of fun and frustration. At least I will be entered in the drawing!

The sign of a true cast shooter if I ever saw one ...LOL.

scrapcan
02-28-2011, 05:01 PM
Nice shooting by the above shooters!

Looks like I am not even going to send targets from my attempts with 22-250. I had about the same luck as Bullshop Jr. I was sure You guys would be able to give some data that would help me out, I shall press on. Just not under the guise of postal competion.

I wouldn't even feel right about entering a random drawing with my results. I tried 225438, 225415, 225450, and the Bator. Used 4 different powders. Just not quite there yet. I did have one group under 2 inches, sideways hits and all.

Until next time!

Bullshop Junior
02-28-2011, 07:47 PM
I got my 22/250 down to about a inch on a few targets, but it was not consistent. It was shooting a average of about 4". With jacketed, this rifle will shoot WAY better then that.....

CWME
02-28-2011, 09:17 PM
Got out to the range the past weekend but never made it past the 50 yard line. 2" groups there indicated I was not going to have much luck at the 100 yard line.

Maybe I will get it together for the next one.

scrapcan
03-01-2011, 12:16 PM
BS Junior,

That is about where I was at. Some were much larger than 4 inches. I had lots of stability issues. I think I have not yet found the right powder and may have had primer/powder combination issues.

Fun time will continue on my side, so hope to hear more of your adventures with the 22-250 also.

Greg
03-01-2011, 01:05 PM
BullShop

I have two other loads that I want to get shot for this Match

I went to the range yesterday evening and the creek was over the bridge, way too cold and deep to wade.

I’ll make it to another local range this afternoon, might have to wade mud to the backboard, but no swimming needed.

Greg
03-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Bullshop Junior & ManleyJt


please post what you found that didn’t work so good

a failure is only so, if you fail to learn from it

I picked up a 22-250 but have not started a campaign with it…yet

Bullshop
03-01-2011, 02:01 PM
Greg
I agree with that and wanted to say the same thing. Even poor results contain good information to learn from. That is enough of a contribution to justify sending in your targets with load info and being entered in the prize drawings.

rhbrink
03-01-2011, 02:01 PM
Bullshop Junior & ManleyJt


please post what you found that didn’t work so good

a failure is only so, if you fail to learn from it

I picked up a 22-250 but have not started a campaign with it…yet

Yep like what kind of rifle is it? Twist. length of boolit, how fast are you trying to push it? Powder? Primer? There would be several people that would help you shoot better if they just knew where to start!

I thought that after this is all over said and done that maybe start a new thread with some of the things that I was doing and not doing along with some observations and questions. That way everyone interested could post whatever they thought on the subject.

Richard

Bullshop Junior
03-01-2011, 03:25 PM
I have a Stevens 200 action with a Savage model 11 barrel on it. I think it has a 1/14" twist.

I tried a few powers in it, and just was not able to get it to work very well. With jacketed, this gun won't shoot it's best until it is right at the ragged edge on the top end. I think the problem was, I was not getting the pressure up enough for the gun to like it, because the boolits where starting to fail. The best results I got where with a case full of Trailboss, but it was not consistent.

Pretty much, my opinion with the 22/250 now is that I got it for screaming jacketed bullets at over 4000 FPS, and it is just not a good choice for cast. I think is I spent enough time with it, I could get to shoot good, but I didn't get it for that.

scrapcan
03-01-2011, 07:23 PM
I will get the info up on loadings when I get a chance. Rifle is a Santa Barbara Commercial 98 action, I will have to look up the barrel brand. It is 1:14 twist, I believe it is 26 inches in length. It also likes to run on the top end. It shoots factory rem 55 gr ammo under an inch any day at 100yds. The barrel is clean there is no copper or carbon fouling.

All bullets tried were sized 225. Alloy is 9lbs ww to 1lb lino. Only inspected for obvious rejects and major weight issues. I am sure more vigorous inspection and sorting will help, but bores a bit larger are much more fun to cast for.

I tried BAC, 2500+, Carnuba Red, and LBT Blue Soft for lubes.

All loaded in Win brass. No fillers.

Primers used were old lots of speer large rifle military primers ( have been stored well) and winchester LR ( new lot from just after the primer scare). I may be having a primer issue as I have a 7mmo6 that has been doing some weird stuff. I have some federal BR primers to try in both rifles.

I was trying for 2200 to 2400 fps. Not sure that was the best choice.

More to come.

kbstenberg
03-01-2011, 07:43 PM
I have a question about all the 22 cal cast bullets. Is there really enough lube in the Lube groves to keep the bullets from leading?
I usually use FWFL in 30cal, 7mm. So I probably will use it also in the 22.
Kevin

rhbrink
03-01-2011, 08:22 PM
I have a question about all the 22 cal cast bullets. Is there really enough lube in the Lube groves to keep the bullets from leading?
I usually use FWFL in 30cal, 7mm. So I probably will use it also in the 22.
Kevin

I was thinking that maybe I have too much lube on mine. I suppose that it would depend on the condition of your individual barrel. Seemed to me toward the end of my shooting session, 50 rounds with no cleaning, I was starting to get a lot of fliers. Could be too much lube? Maybe need to clean every 15 to 20 rounds? Maybe the barrel is just too slick? The rifle that I was shooting has been shot a lot just guessing 5000 to 8000 rounds? I lost track about 20 years ago. At no time did I find any hint of lead in the bore but I wasn't trying to push it very fast, just fast enough to be accurate. This old rifle, I bought it in 1972 just amazes me on how well it will shoot jacket ammo as long as I don't go over a 55 grain Spitzer. Anything from 40 grain up to 55 grain with any reasonable powder charge just shoots extremely well.

I see that above some people are having trouble with the 22-250. I had one before this Sako and shot cast in it seemed to shoot pretty well at the time. I was using the Lyman 225462 with Unique and sometimes 2400, don't remember the powder charges or brand of lube (probably Lyman). I didn't try to push it fast either mostly small game stuff and plinking. Fun and cheap! That was a Remington 700 with a 14 inch twist.

There is a lot to learn here for everybody just hope that this thread keeps going and other people will jump in and write about their experiences.

Richard

Bullshop
03-01-2011, 10:03 PM
Richard
I have found that at times the barrel will need cleaning at shorter intervals not due to too much lube but due to the powder being used being burned at a lower pressure than is optimal for a clean burn. Some powders especially some ball powders will leave plenty of hard fouling that seem difficult to see when looking through the barrel. A visual inspection through the barrel even with good light may look smooth and shiny but still have the driving side of the lands badly fouled.
Kevin
Plenty of lube there. Some of us even leave some of the grooves unfilled.

Bullshop
03-01-2011, 10:30 PM
I will give a grace period until the 15th for all targets to arrive.
After that I will put all the names of all that entered into a hat and draw for the prizes.
I will give choice of prizes in the order the names are drawn, first drawn gets first choice and so on until prizes are gone. It seems not right to put my name in so I will leave it out. So at this point I think we have more prizes than entries.

PatMarlin
03-01-2011, 10:37 PM
How much is the cold temp having an effect on the brand/mix of lube?

Bullshop
03-01-2011, 11:45 PM
Pat you surely bring up a good point. I had to shoot this match in the -20s and -30s and I can say absolutely for certain that I can shoot better and more consistant groups in summer than in winter. Even so I think we turned in respectable results.
So if you guys will spot me say .100" for the handicap I will be looking perty good, HA!
I was testing a new lube today without bees wax. It did extremely well in the cold about -10 to -15 today. I plan on making two formula of this lube. One will be soft for no heat lube sizers and the other hard and not tacky requiring heat to flow. So far this is looking very good and the reason for it is directly related to your question.
I had trouble with the new 221 barrel getting wild after about 100 shots without cleaning. Today when I cleaned it I found it was badly fouled and took a lot of cleaning. There was no lead but only what looked like powder fouling or possibly lube fouling as well. After about 50 shots today with the new lube things were still looking good but I think I was just beginning to get to the point of fouling trouble again. The flyers were not as bad but beginning to show up. If I had continued to shoot I think they would have continued to open up. Next test is to see if it cleans up easier than with the speen green lube. In all fairness though I didnt burn the same typ powder and I think that is the big issue with the fouling. Powders like WC 680 in the 221 case when fired at well below the optimum burn pressure just seem to leave the tyoe of hard fouling that degrades accuracy. Other powders in about the same burn rate like 4227 seem to not foul as badly at sub optimum pressure but instead leave partially burned powder kernals in the barrel. I am rambling, sorry.

obssd1958
03-02-2011, 01:32 AM
Bullshop, keep rambling - it's the way we learn the little tips and tricks, and things to get us thinkin', that would never get posted otherwise.


Don

rhbrink
03-02-2011, 10:14 AM
I like the rambling too Bullshop never know when a tidbit of info sneaks out, "Huum! never thought about that one" type deal. You could be right about the powder fouling, looks clean after shooting but it is a small diameter barrel and the rifling has to be getting pretty thin. Wouldn't take much fouling to change the internal dynamics of the bore and load.

As for cold weather shooting I'm amazied that you get that good of accuracy in thse kind of temperatures. I ain't shoot'n below 32*F just against my religion.

Richard

scrapcan
03-02-2011, 01:13 PM
great info thanks. I intend to keep going when I have the time (maybe sneak a few targets in under the wire).

Bullshop
03-02-2011, 07:32 PM
I just added the results of two more contestants. I am trying to keep them all in the same post so edited them into the one one page 8.

Bullshop Junior
03-02-2011, 08:14 PM
I only have 5 pages

troy_mclure
03-03-2011, 11:29 AM
bah, i ordered my new lyman 45 piston 10 days or so ago, it was just now shipped.

Bullshop
03-03-2011, 01:25 PM
Is anyone besides Jr. not getting all the pages? There are a total of 10 pages and the results are on page 8.

357 Voodoo
03-03-2011, 01:39 PM
Bullshop I have 5 pages but that's cuz I have my settings set for 40 posts per page instead of 20

So the results are on page 4 post 154

my targets are in the mail this was a very fun challenge.

scrapcan
03-08-2011, 05:19 PM
I tried again this past weekend. rifle was and is a commercial mauser 98, with a shilen or douglas barrel (I think as it came to me from a benchrester that never installed it) with 1 in 14 twist and 26 inch length. light or standard varmit contour.

using winchester and remington brass, federal 210 primer. Shot at 100 yds in snowing, but no wind conditions. Very pleasant except heavy snow flurries made it hard to see through scope at times.

lyman 225438, gator check, and lbt blue soft lube. All shot from clean barrel, jacketed loads shot after cast.

10 gr unique, large groups > 4 inches
2400 and 4227 various loadings gave about the same.

one load with 4350 and a Sierra 55gr Spiter gave .5 to .75 inch groups. Factory Remington 55 grn PSP green box ( only had 3 rounds left) went into just under .5 inch. A second jacketed loading with 4198 was horrible at 6 to 8 inches at same distance, this may have been due to barrel heating or just not a good load. I saved 10 to try at another time.

My quest will continue.

No targets to send as I am too embarrassed to send what I have.

Bullshop
03-09-2011, 09:02 PM
I received a second set of targets from stubshaft and scored them today.
He shot a .424" average with a 22 K hornet Encore.
That is one good shooting hornet!
Anyone wanting to see the particulars it is posted with all the others on page 8.

rhbrink
03-11-2011, 07:33 AM
:happy dance:Whew!!!!!

Bullshop
03-12-2011, 10:55 PM
rhbrink
Go ahead and strut you turned in an incredable score a .294", BUUTTTT! it aint over yet.
I may unveil thing 1 and thing 2 they've got VOOOOOOMMM!!!
BTW I just posted another score for member Greg.

stubshaft
03-13-2011, 12:03 AM
:groner: Great shooting!

rhbrink
03-13-2011, 05:39 AM
I hope that nobody was offended I was just trying to have a little fun, seems to be a little difficult to come across right on the puter for me anyway.

stubshaft, was that 15" barrel .223 TC a pistol? That would be some really great shooting with a handgun. Curious about the 22 Hornet MGM barrel as to what twist it has?

stubshaft
03-13-2011, 06:51 AM
Yes the 223 was in a 15" Encore factory blued barrel. The K Hornet has a 1 in 14" twist built on a Shilen Match barrel blank and is very tempermental. The 225438 is 3.0 grs. heavier and .002" longer than the 225415 and with identical powder charges it (438) shows signs of tipping? I guess that I'll have to work more with it in my 219 DW.

Great shooting rhbrink!

rhbrink
03-13-2011, 07:53 AM
Thanks, I never have owned a K Hornet but have in the past owned two 22 Hornets, One was a Contender with a 10" barrel. I managed to get it to shoot rather well but only liked one load and that wasn't a boolit. The other was a Ruger and it didn't stay around long, never could make it shoot good enough with anything. I would like to have another Hornet but this time it will be a custom barrel probably a 14" twist.

kbstenberg
03-13-2011, 08:40 AM
Bullshop pertaining to your rambling in post 189. Keep it up. I learn MORE from you an your RAMBLINGS than from other informed sources.
I would be interested in knowing if the guyes that are shooting the Bator bullets. If they are useing the old style mold or the new style with the steped GC.
Kevin

JonB_in_Glencoe
03-13-2011, 12:33 PM
Kevin,
I was one that used the Bator in a Ruger #3 22 hornet.
the cases were once fired in said gun then Neck sized only.
I used a 257 FL size die (adjusted very high) to flare the case mouth as I don't have a
Lyman M die or the Lee Universal Flare (which I recently purchased).
But I think I like using the 257 Rob FL size die better,
I think it is more of a gradual flaring and easier to adjust.

Mine is a stepped shank 2 cav. mold bought Sept 2010 from Midsouth.
the gator GC fit loose BUT not sloppy as some have complained.
I dip Lubed and sized to .225 with some with my experimental Lube "Dominataur"
others were Tumble lubed with 45-45-10 twice sizing to .225 inbetween lubings.
they both shot about the same, I was quite happy with the results.
But I did get one real nice group set with the "Dominataur"
and that's why I sent that set in.

Today, I am trying these same loads in my Ruger 77/22 in 22 Hornet.
going to the range with my Daughter and Son-in-law.
My Daughter got a Colt Trooper MKIII 357 for her Birthday last month. :)
She is tickled.
Jon

Bullshop
03-13-2011, 01:19 PM
rhbrink
I sure dont think you offended anyone. I was laughing right along with you.
Looks like you will receive top honors as I have decided to keep thing 1 and thing 2 under my hat.

I have been known to be a 22 hornet freakonut and am always looking to try a new one.
My experiance with the Ruger has not been all that good. Of the 5 I have had I was able to get two of them to shoot decent but not great and I really had to work for it. I really like the feel of the Rugers and that rotary mag works great but I remember what Mr. Whelen said about only accurate rifles being interesting. So far I think the most accurate hornet I ever had was a TCR 83 although I had a CZ that was a fine shooter too.
I once was at a gun show and held in my own hornet hands an honest to goodness Walther but due to insufficient funding was forced to relinquish my grasp on that beautiful little rifle. What a pity!!! My quest continues.

rhbrink
03-13-2011, 04:57 PM
I once held a Model 70 pre '64 Winchester Custom Shop build in my hands chambered in the Hornet couldn't afford that one either. Still think about it now and then. So are you going to let us in on the "thing1" and "thing2" ? Inquiring minds want to know?

PatMarlin
03-13-2011, 06:23 PM
I passed on a nice Cooper in 22 hornet. Still think about that one.

$1200. Even keep a pic of it still. Don' know why. Self mutilation? ...:mrgreen:

http://www.patmarlins.com/cooperHornet.jpg

Bullshop Junior
03-13-2011, 06:54 PM
Glory bee my knees are shaking. Oops I am posting in Jr's name.

rhbrink
03-13-2011, 08:01 PM
MY oh MY that is a pretty one, but understand the feeling, 1200 bucks for a Hornet. The Winchester that I was talking about was considerable more than that and it was quite a while back, just too much for a lowly Hornet, as sweet as they are just couldn't pull the trigger.

obssd1958
03-14-2011, 12:51 AM
I had every intention of entering this contest, but ran into too many excuses to overcome [smilie=1:
Anyway, this is the fine firearm that I was going to use:

Winchester model 54 chambered in 22 Hornet. Made in 1935 according to "The Winchester Book". It has a Lyman 48 Receiver sight (first or second version - long slide) and Warne Quick Detachable Scope Rings holding a Leupold fixed 12 power scope with adjustable objective. Pop the scope off to use the peep sight, and pop the scope right back on - right to your original zero.


http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/cast%20boolits%20related/mod54_ab.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/cast%20boolits%20related/mod54_h.jpg

It is for sale, but it ain't cheap!!


Don

PatMarlin
03-14-2011, 01:04 AM
and the magic number is? ....:mrgreen:

stubshaft
03-14-2011, 01:38 AM
Bullshop pertaining to your rambling in post 189. Keep it up. I learn MORE from you an your RAMBLINGS than from other informed sources.
I would be interested in knowing if the guyes that are shooting the Bator bullets. If they are useing the old style mold or the new style with the steped GC.
Kevin


You forgot version #3 which is the old style shank with the wider nose.

Don, that is an absolutely beautiful 54.

PatMarlin
03-14-2011, 02:07 AM
What twist are these Savages in .223 Rem. I used to know but slips my mind. I think it's an FVSS model 12? long fluted stainless.

http://www.patmarlins.com/sav5.jpg

obssd1958
03-14-2011, 02:09 AM
and the magic number is? ....:mrgreen:

Well, Pat, this ain't the "swappin' and sellin'" section, but $1800 would precipitate a change of ownership!:2_high5:

and just to show it has possibilities:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m9/obssd1958/shooting/cast%20boolits%20related/mod54_targets.jpg


Don

rhbrink
03-14-2011, 06:34 AM
What twist are these Savages in .223 Rem. I used to know but slips my mind. I think it's an FVSS model 12? long fluted stainless.

http://www.patmarlins.com/sav5.jpg

Almost sure that all the recent Savage .223 rifles are 9" twist. purddy fast turn rate for a 22 boolit. But I found a used .223 Savage barrel waiting on some more parts to show up but going to try the NOE 70 grain boolit in it this year sometime.

PatMarlin
03-14-2011, 11:46 AM
Unfortunately, I only have the NOE 55 grn. Yep- it is the 1-9.

Bullshop
03-14-2011, 12:30 PM
That Savag with 1/9" twist should do real good work. I have one of the older tactical models in 223 AI with 18" barrel and 1/9" twist and it does respectable work. It will handle a wide range of boolit lengths.
I have another Savage I have re-barreled with a 1/6.5" twist. This one is in 22/250 with a Walther barrel with polygonal interior. It was to test a theory about reduced fouling in a rifle bore without lands and grooves.

rhbrink
03-14-2011, 01:14 PM
Unfortunately, I only have the NOE 55 grn. Yep- it is the 1-9.

Try it, it just might surprise you just don't try to push it too fast 1800 f/s plus or minus. Now if you want to shoot real fast you might try a rifle barrel without lands and grooves don't know about accuracy though!;)

scottiemom
03-14-2011, 06:21 PM
well darn!! I wanted to join in the fun but thought it was too late. this is what I get for just reading the post date and not reading all the thread. please do another one soon!! I will read much more carefully next time!

Bullshop
03-14-2011, 09:37 PM
I am real busy trying to catch up on orders and getting the last caribou butchered up and chores and yada yada what ever. Anyway I hope to get all scores in order tomorrow and begin the prize distribution process.

BT Sniper
03-15-2011, 02:08 AM
Let me know who to send the two seperate boxes of swaged bullets to.

Good shooting guys.

BTSniper

stubshaft
03-15-2011, 02:21 AM
I am real busy trying to catch up on orders and getting the last caribou butchered up and chores and yada yada what ever. Anyway I hope to get all scores in order tomorrow and begin the prize distribution process.

So how much Caribou is in the drawing?:2 drunk buddies:

JonB_in_Glencoe
03-15-2011, 10:44 AM
mmmm Caribou jerky :mrgreen:
But If I had my drothers,
I'd have some of what my Native cousins in Aniak call "Half-dried"
they take the Belly meat of King Salmon,
dry smoke it about half way, then freeze it.
then just boil it like lobster to prepare it...or roast at low temp (maybe 275º)
It's so rich, there is no need to dip in Butter.
it tastes like it already has been dipped.
Jon

Bullshop
03-15-2011, 08:21 PM
Can ya hear her, can ya hear the fat lady singing? Remember Neil Young in the 60's, Its - o-o-o-ver-er.
Wow this was the most fun postal match I have done. I went through half of the 3000 gas checks I got from Blammer when this started.
I am astounded at the level of accuracy contestants have achieved. Here are the scores in order of smallest to largest, smallest being the winner.
Congrats to RHBrink for the winning score of .294" followed by stubshaft with two entries at .431" and .442", then TCFAN with .618", Bullshop .660", Jon B in Glencoe .698", Bullshop Jr. .753", rugerfan 1.301" and Greg with 1.388"
I say all are winners and thank you all for participating.
Next I will throw these names into a hat and have my oldest daughter Christian age 10 draw them. I will list the prizes available and choice will be given in the order drawn.
Stay tuned!

stubshaft
03-15-2011, 09:34 PM
Congrats rhbrink!

It was definitely alot of fun but the kicker was the shot closest to center. It was like shooting a benchrest match combined with a hunter match.

Thanks alot for hosting it Bullshop.

Bullshop
03-15-2011, 11:29 PM
OK let the merriment begin. The prizes are,
#1 your choice of ranch Dog molds generously donated by Ranch Dog
#2 a box of your choice of any bullets on the list at the Bullshop site
( www.bullshop.gunloads.com )
#3 a box of any of the Ranch Dog designs listed at the Bullshop site
(note weights over 310gn run 50 to the box and under 310gn run 100 to the box)
#4 a box of swaged 44 cal HP bullets donated by boat tail sniper
#5 a box of 40 cal swaged bullets also donated by boat tail sniper
OK may we have the hat please? Here we go, drum roll please, TADA! first choice goes to, you wont believe this ! its Bullshop Jr Congrats Jr. Since he is here watching he has chosen prize #4 the 44 cal swaged bullets from BT sniper.
next in this order,
#2 stubshaft
#3 Greg
#4 RH Brink
#5 Rugerfan
Thats it thats all the prizes.
Let us know what you choose and we will try to get things lined out.
Thanks for joining the fun and hope we can do it again soon.
OH and by the way an interesting tidbit on how well this went is the average for all 9 entries is .7316" Incredible that 8 people shooting several different rifles and cartridges all shooting 22 cal cast boolits 108 shots in all and averaged .7316"
We are living the good old days of cast boolits.
Thanks to all and God bless!

BT Sniper
03-16-2011, 12:52 AM
Boat Tail Sniper I like that one. Maybe I should go by it. Actually BT is my initials but I'll get Jr. some great 44 cal bullets on the way. Good shooting guys.

BT

Bullshop
03-16-2011, 02:48 AM
stubshaft has picked the Ranch Dog mould, so the next guy in line can pick his prize.

TCFAN
03-16-2011, 09:41 AM
I would like to give a BIG THANK YOU to Bullshop for putting this match on.It gave me a reason to get out and shoot a rifle that I never shoot that much.
Also congratulation to all the winners.
I would also like to thank everyone who put up a prize for the drawing.

Hope we can do this again .........In better weather I hope ...Like in the summer..........Terry

JonB_in_Glencoe
03-16-2011, 12:12 PM
+1 TCFAN
Congrats to all.
and thanks to those that donated.
I'd never have shot a rifle at paper on 5º day in Feburary...or was it January ?
doesn't really matter in MN.

Yes let's do this again :)
Jon

Bullshop
03-16-2011, 01:06 PM
Greg
Your next in line to choose a prize. Still available are,
#1 Bullshop boolits (your choise)
#2 Bullshop boolits Ranch Dog design
#3 BT Sniper 40 cal swaged bullets
So we can get this wrapped up if we dont hear from you in a couple days we will pas third choise on to the next person.

Boat Tail Sniper, Sorry it just came out, a gun nut thing dont ya know.

BT Sniper
03-16-2011, 04:18 PM
It's cool :)

Greg
03-16-2011, 10:14 PM
Thanks to BullShop for doing so much for this match, along with everyone that donated
the prizes.

I didn’t expect to be in the winners circle so it took me a few moments to decide…


I want a box of Bullshops ~ 6.5 Caribiner Boolits

I have a 6.5 JDJ 14" Contender barrel that I’d like to frustrate myself about.
should/could make me certifiable coo-coo


again, thanks to everybody that participated in this match

Ranch Dog
03-16-2011, 10:27 PM
This evening there is a TLC225-50-RF heading to the southern most State in the Union! Congratulations shooters, well done. Been to busy to join in. A lot of mold and tractor time, busy time of the year!

stubshaft
03-16-2011, 11:40 PM
Thanks RD and everyone else who made this happen.

rhbrink
03-17-2011, 07:02 AM
Thanks to everyone that made this happen and the especially nice gifts, Bullshop, Ranchdog, BT Sniper. This was a very fun thing to do and my first postal match, hope that we get to do it again. I would like to receive the RD225-50 boolits.

Thanks again,

Richard

PatMarlin
03-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Congratulations everyone!

NOW lets do one in 30 cal. How bout' lever action category? Daniel?

I bought an old Korean War Vet, close friend and neighbor of mine a 30-30 Marlin 336 circa 1970's micro groove last year and he's never shot it yet. It would be the perfect excuse to get him out.

His daughter is back east waiting for an operation, and it's being held up for politcal BS reasons. She has a rare condition and only one Dr. in the US that can do it, but the hospital does not want to be held liable so they are holding it up. Long story. She may not make it. He needs cheering up.

Bullshop
03-17-2011, 03:39 PM
OK GOOD !!! I think I have this straight.
Greg gets a box of 6.5 boolits
RHBrink gets a box of 22 cal RD bullets
Give ne a little time to get to that and Lord willing we will get it done.
I think that leaves the last prize of swaged 40 cal bullets to rugerfan.
Rugerfan if you want those and you dont mind PM BTsniper as he is waiting on a call for those.
Thats it done deal.
I will be doing our seasonal shut down starting April and thats just around the corner.
You will have all summer to poke fun at the Bullshop but Lord willing come fall like the terminator says, I'll be back!

Bullshop
03-17-2011, 03:51 PM
Just saw your post Pat. Take him shooting!!!!
I just picked up a very nice old trapdoor so and packing it and some supplies enough for a few days in my drag sled and headed for the hills. If he shows up before I leave out he can come with. Should be fun snow camping and the weather is supposed to hold at zero for a low for a few days. Bears should be coming out and maybe respond to a predator call. If a wolf comes in I will save a couple moose calves.

RugerFan
03-19-2011, 09:44 PM
I think that leaves the last prize of swaged 40 cal bullets to rugerfan.
Rugerfan if you want those and you dont mind PM BTsniper as he is waiting on a call for those.


Sure thing. Thanks for putting this on Dan!

BT Sniper
03-21-2011, 11:38 PM
Bullet prizes are going out in morning mail.

Good shooting guys.

BTSniper

rhbrink
03-24-2011, 02:26 PM
I just received my boolits in the mail this afternoon thanks Bullshop they look great probably get some loaded up and shoot them next week. Those Ranch Dogs look like they would make a fine small game and varmint boolit.

Richard

Bullshop
03-24-2011, 02:54 PM
I whaked a coyote with one of the RD 22's from a hornet. Hit center in the shoulder and he didnt argue a bit.

man.electric
03-25-2011, 03:24 PM
I am real busy trying to catch up on orders and getting the last caribou butchered up and chores and yada yada what ever. Anyway I hope to get all scores in order tomorrow and begin the prize distribution process.

Is it possible for out of state guys to come up to the great northland and hunt caribou? I have always wanted to go after one.

Bullshop
03-25-2011, 04:15 PM
A non-resident can hunt caribou without a guide in some areas. You are required to buy a non-res license and harvest ticket.
For bear and sheep you are required to hire a licensed giude.
A resident can take 5 caribou per day north of the Yukon.

man.electric
03-25-2011, 04:26 PM
Interesting. I really need to look into heading up to Yukon one of these days. My sister worked in a biological research station off of the Toolik River north west of Prudhoe Bay for a couple of years and I have always wanted to head up there and see the sights. I might have to look into getting a guide and doing it right.

GabbyM
03-26-2011, 04:00 AM
Here in Illinois Blago doubled the already ridiculous fees.

I know of no one around here that buys a Blogo license from Chicago anymore.

Illinois is pretty much in a state of anarchy.