help find ML kit for 11 YO

[Bullshop]

I need to ask for help in an area I am ignorant in, in choosing a ML kit for my 11 year old son.
He has very bad asthma and we hope to help calm him when he is having problems it may be good for him to have something other to focus on.
He loves working with tools and building so I am thinking maybe a ML kit would be a good idea for him. I would not be looking for a high $ top of the line dealy here just something for a boy to occupy his time/mind.
I dont really know where to look for what I want. There are many places on line but what I am seeing are $500.00 and $600.00 kits.
Where might I look for something more appropriate for my situation?
Any help will be appreciated, Thank you!

[Nobade]

Check out these guys:
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/SittingFox.html

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Bullshop-

Check out Cabelas on-line in the Bargain Cave section. They have Hawkin kits on sale. I saw one last week at the store in Gonzales La. I looked like it was alot better quality than the kit I bought 15 years ago.

I don't know if a Hawkins is your style or not but I thought I would mention it.

Here's the link: http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/browse/bargain-cave-hunting-black-powder/_/N-1102658/Ns-CATEGORY_SEQ_105651180

Regards,
Everett

[FL-Flinter]

I was 11 when I bought my first kit, a CVA Kentucky and had it not been for the fact that I am not one to give in to defeat, that *** would likely have turned me against ML'ing forever. Not having the internet or other resources, I screwed with that thing for months trying to figure out how it was supposed to work then fixing it so it did work. For as much time and effort as I had into that one, knowing what I do now, I could have made my own lock from scratch. But, that's the beast that got me hooked.

First things first, because of the asthma, before you do anything else, invest in a professional grade respirator for the kid. We're not talking a lot of money these days, a good one with replacable dust filters over the screw-on cartridges is fifty bucks tops, most are around thirty. Go with a silicone mask (mouth & nose cover) as opposed to plastic/rubber because they seal better and are far more comfortable ... obtaining a proper seal is the most important thing, be sure to check it properly now and as he grows. Personally, I'm partial to MSA brand producing the most comfortable styles for all-day wear and ones with the belt-mounted filter cartridge are the least intrusive when working. Before you get anything, check with his doctor and if his regular doc isn't well-versed in respirators, find one who is because in some cases, use of a properly made respirator can actually be beneficial.

As for the kit, you have to make the determination of just how much effort your son is willing to put forth into the project. If he's looking for something that is fast & easy, I'd suggest a Lyman as they're basically snap-together rarely requiring any thought or effort. If he's an advanced & enterprising young man, I'd suggest going with a professional parts kit right from the start. It will be far more challenging as it will require a lot of hands-on fitting, inletting, fabrication and so forth - I've seen these kits challenge a large number of well-aged adults yet they're just the thing for a younger person who is willing to put the time and work into learning. (Pro kits are not for everyone, I get quite a few in my shop at various stages of completetion as well as some who take a look at the parts and bring it to me rather than screw it up. No shame in a man knowing his limits but when it comes to a kid, I say go for it!) The worst thing you can do is give him something that isn't going to challenge him well beyond his present limits, if he's gifted he's going to put the Lyman kit together in a few days and become quickly bored with it.

My suggestion is to invest as much as you can in his future. Everyone makes mistakes and most people learn more from the mistakes than anything else (politicians excluded). Every time something goes wrong, teach him how to figure out what when wrong and why it went wrong and then challenge him to figure out a way to fix it or avoid the problem the next time. Drill a thimble pin hole in the wrong place or have one wallow-out, the learning experience is amplified tremendously. I strongly suggest including him in the selection process unless this is going to be a surprise gift, then it's going to be your call ... but as I said, you need to evaluate just how much challenge he needs without overwhelming him. Perhaps he's advanced enough for an underhammer kit but not quite ready for a longrifle or ready for a longrifle but not ready for a full-dressed Jaeger. Some years ago I taught fabrication art classes at a studio in PA. Single mom & 13 y/o daughter signed up for a pottery class with another instructor, the daughter was bored to tears and talked mom into transferring to my class. Against mom's advice, the daughter had it in her mind to take on her own project that was quite complex for someone with experience let alone a kid who knew nothing about tools or shop work. Sure, daughter got frustrated for making mistakes and ruining materials but she never made the same mistake twice. She went through about six times as much materials as a the project required but when she was done, I'd have been proud to put my name on it. BTW, she didn't finish it in the time allotted for my class, she worked on it for several months after the classes ended. Point is, mom was holding daughter back by offering every excuse in the book; it's going to cost too much; it's too difficult; it's too dangerous; wait till you're older... all mom needed to do was let the daughter accept the challenge. Of course this was an extreme case but I say give your son enough of a challenge to keep his interest but also be willing to accept the fact that he may send stuff to the cull pile along the way but it's part of the learning process.

[docone31]

Mark, sound and valid advice.
I made that mistake with my own son also.
At that age, they get all excited, then when sanding takes longer than they think, they get frustrated.
I remember my first boat. My father used to make me sand the bottom for the bottom paint. I hated that. I did not really see why I could just toss the boat in and motor off. I finally resorted to wiping the bottom with bronze wool, and sanding the bronze carriage bolt heads.
He oked it, then painted it.
I always wondered if he knew.
At 13, they drift off. At 14 you cannot stop them.
Those are developmental years.

[KCSO]

All good advise so far, but from my personal expirience it won't matter much, all the kits I see here look like they were made by and 11 year old!

Sorry had to rant been fixin' boo boo's all morning. CVA kits will be the easiest Track of the Wolf or Pecatonica will be the hardest and the best rifle. Others in between.

[wellfedirishman]

Bullshop, someone over on the GBO forum (under Muzzleloader classifieds section) was selling a nice CVA Youth Muzzleloader (factory built) for $130 shipped approx. I know you wanted a kit, but that price is pretty good.

If I had a kid I would have jumped on it. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) my dogs and cats have not learned how to muzzleload yet...

[waksupi]

Stick with known, brand names. If you find something you have never heard of, there is probably a reason.

[docone31]

A thought,
For the first time, you might also consider like a Cabelas Hawken, and refinish it.
Inlet the inlets better than factory, Brown the barrel, mount an underrib, solder on the ferruls, make the ramrod.
Stuff like that.
The Hawken shop makes an iron furniture kit also.
I did one, and I was proud.
It all came together well and already worked when I started.
Just a thought

[Bullshop]

Many thanks to everyone!!!! Such good advice!
What I want is for him to be challenged. I think I would put him in the advanced class.
Abraham is the one with asthma and his brother Nathan two years older have without any help what so ever rebuilt some junker snow machines and motor cycle engines. They have been working on the head of one engine that had a broken cam and looks like they are winning that battle. These are machines that were basically give away broken junk.
So without trying to be boastful you can see they are hands on guys that are gifted mechanically. Last month they were fabricating a motor mount bracket to mount a weed eater engine they got at a yard sale to a bicycle they also got at a yard sale.
All that is needed is for them to be interested enough to put thier minds to it.
I think maybe the pro kit is in order.

Waksupi
I must admit my ignorance again and ask you to drop some names.

Many thanks to all again!

[waksupi]

Dan, I mean like CVA, Thompson Center, Lyman on the low end, Track of the Wolf, Chambers, etc. for high end.

[Bullshop]

how about *Traditions Performance Firearms*? i got this link from them... will look at Cabelas too, when i get time later on.... thanks again ... BS MOM

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/index.php?cPath=4_59&osCsid=af3ebe8bdafd1d6c899e0be38acae9e4

[mooman76]

Check out the auction sites. They sometime get a kit that someone never took the time to put together and sells it fairly cheap. I got one a few years ago for $55. The kits seem to be fading away except for the higher doller ones but they are still to be had. Traditions is pretty good now adays as far as the lower end goes. CVA quite making kits and traditional MLs if you check out their web site but that seems to be recent and there are still some around you can pick up. I've built a few CVAs and they arent bad for a starter kit, for a beginner.

[FL-Flinter]

I strongly sugges avoiding the cheap ****, at bare minimum Lyman, forget Traditions & CVA. Yep, that's going to rub some the wrong way but the reality of it is they suck. Sure, they can be tweaked & tuned to a point but as for overall quality, they flat-out suck as compared to the higher quality parts. Jumping in cold as in not knowing how a high-quality tuned lock functions and trying to rebuild a cheap piece of cr@p lock so it is at least half decent isn't something that will create a good experience.

[waksupi]

I strongly sugges avoiding the cheap ****, at bare minimum Lyman, forget Traditions & CVA. Yep, that's going to rub some the wrong way but the reality of it is they suck. Sure, they can be tweaked & tuned to a point but as for overall quality, they flat-out suck as compared to the higher quality parts. Jumping in cold as in not knowing how a high-quality tuned lock functions and trying to rebuild a cheap piece of cr@p lock so it is at least half decent isn't something that will create a good experience.


Yep. If you buy ****, that is what you end up with. Pinching pennies with muzzle loaders has driven more people away from them, than anything else.

[Dean D.]

Dan, is this kit something the boy will be shooting a lot when he finishes it? The reason I ask is because most of the "Hawken" type rifles are VERY barrel heavy. A kit with a swamped barrel would be much more pleasant for the kid to shoot but would cost more. Something to think about if the finished product is something he will want to keep and use.

FWIW my Lyman Great Plains Rifle .54 flintlock with a 32" straight barrel is much more barrel heavy than my Track of the Wolf kit Lancaster .54 flintlock with a 44" swamped barrel. The Lyman is ok but not even in the same class as my Lancaster.

Sure surprised me.

[Captain*Kirk]

I bought my boy a CVA St. Louis Hawken kit about 6 years ago....scored it two days before Christmas. Don't recall the cost but I'm thinking somewhere in the two hundreds?
The nice thing about this one was it came with blued/casehardened hardware, so all that was necessary was woodwork, fitting, and assembly.
It turned out way better than I had envisioned, as it was supposed to be a father/son project...but he took the ball and ran with it over Christmas vacation while I was working and he was....gunsmithing, I guess!
It turned out rather nice, shoots very well, and he still takes pride as an adult now that "he built it".
Not to ruffle any feathers, but I wouldn't invest a whole lot on a FIRST gun. He can always pass it on to his brother if he gets "the bug" and move on to a Track Of The Wolf (TOW) kit or other higher quality gun. If he totally messes it up, you won't be out a small fortune, either.
I would also suggest getting him some good "reading material" on various gunsmithing techniques and style, to give him some inspiration before he starts.