OK, So I have a Garand

[cabezaverde]

I have a Garand, an 8 lbs keg of IMR 4350, lots of surplus military brass, and two molds - Lyman 311291 and RCBS 30-180 FN.

Any suggestions for what I can put together with these that will shoot reasonably well and not hurt my Garand?

[AnthonyB]

My Garand functions well with 38.0 grains IMR4831 and the RCBS 30-180SP. I have also used the 30-180FN, but had one failure to feed with it in initial testing. Don't know if that was nose shape or load level; more testing to follow.
I started testing at 38 grains last range session and was not expecting 38 grains to function. Next test will start and 38 and go down to see how far I can go. I'd bet similar amounts of 4350 would work as well.
Tony

[madsenshooter]

43.8gr of 4350 will get you around 2100fps with either bullet at around 25000psi and with around 900psi of chamber pressure, which should be fine. Reduce that charge some and work up to it.

[cabezaverde]

Will the 180 FN feed?

[Larry Gibson]

I suggest the 311291. Start at 35 gr of 4350 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work up in 1 gr increments to 42 gr to ensure reliable functioning. The dacron will help with consistent ignition of the slower burning 4350 in the reduced loading. Best accuracy is going to be in the 1750 - 1950 fps range. You should get reliable functioning in that velocity range also. I also suggest a .311 sizing of the cast bulet.

Larry Gibson

[oldhickory]

Will the 180 FN feed?

Good question, I have that mold on order and an M1 in the safe.

[MtGun44]

Powders slower than 4895 or 4064 are not recommended in the Garand action with
full power or nearly full power loads due to excessive port pressure. This will damage
the op rod over time and op rods are getting VERY expensive and hard to find.

It may be OK in lower power loads, but personally, I would not use these slower powders
at all in a wonderful old collectable like a Garand. Why risk damaging this fine machine
when you can buy a can of IMR 4895 and shoot what it was designed for?

Bill

[cabezaverde]

Bill,

Most of the people who post here that seem to know their way around Garands agree that the rules are different for cast. Many posts from knowledgeable folks using slow powders with cast in Garands.

I absolutely agree (and I believe they would also) regarding jacketed.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Yes the RCBS 180 gc FN will feed through all my Garands . As accurate as any boolit I have tried out to 200 yds. My Garands are old WW2 & one H&R that are standard Army issue.
I shoot that same boolit in varias 06 and 308´s and am well pleased.
Just do not undersize it. I run most at .310 unless a worn throat needs a fatter one.

[akajun]

Powders slower than 4895 or 4064 are not recommended in the Garand action with
full power or nearly full power loads due to excessive port pressure. This will damage
the op rod over time and op rods are getting VERY expensive and hard to find.

It may be OK in lower power loads, but personally, I would not use these slower powders
at all in a wonderful old collectable like a Garand. Why risk damaging this fine machine
when you can buy a can of IMR 4895 and shoot what it was designed for?

Bill

DO not use 4350 in a garand. It is a sure fire way to bend your op rod. It is not the amount of pressure per say, it is the pressure curve with slower powders that bends that long skinny op rod. Use a different powder, either sr 4759, 4895, 4064 varget, etc.

[cabezaverde]

DO not use 4350 in a garand. It is a sure fire way to bend your op rod. It is not the amount of pressure per say, it is the pressure curve with slower powders that bends that long skinny op rod. Use a different powder, either sr 4759, 4895, 4064 varget, etc.

Not applicable with cast.

[jmh54738]

The idea behind using slower powders in the Garand with cast bullets is to take advantage of the "pressure curve". Although the velocity of cast bullets is much slower than mil-spec ammo, the same port pressure is required to cycle the action, be it cast or j'bullet. To achieve both a low velocity and adequate port pressure, a slow powder is necessary. The op rod will not be damaged by this procedure. I have forgotten the port pressure required to cycle the action, somewhere around 9000-12000 psi. All are agreed not to use slow powder in full power loads as the port pressure will be too high and may bend the op rod.

[madsenshooter]

DO not use 4350 in a garand. It is a sure fire way to bend your op rod. It is not the amount of pressure per say, it is the pressure curve with slower powders that bends that long skinny op rod. Use a different powder, either sr 4759, 4895, 4064 varget, etc.

"It is not the amount of pressure per say". It is the amount of pressure, precisely, it is the amount of pressure at the gas port that makes the difference. It shouldn't be whole lot more than 10,000psi. Here's a link to a spreadsheet done by parashooter on jouster. http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12608-cast-bullets-in-a-M1-Garand He shows what powders one can use to safely get to 2000fps with the 311284 bullet, and operate the action. Others that we're aware of may be useful, he's taking min operating pressure to be 8000+psi. I know there's one guy here has a garand that will cycle with 17gr of 2400, so there is some variation between specimens.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, 4350 and 4831 are entirely safe to use in the M1 garand at cast bullet pressures. As mentioned it is the gas port pressure that is the concern. The slower powders allow a sufficient gas port pressure to operate the action in nominal cast bullet loads using 170 - 220 gr cast bullets in the 1700 - 2000 fps range.

Those who mention not to use these powders are correct if top end '06 load with j bullets are used.

Larry Gibson

[sqlbullet]

I guess I am going to have to scold both of my garands. They eat H4831 all the time behind 200 grain cast bullets, but don't bend their op-rods.

cabezaverde, Madsenshooter had given you a good steer with those loads. Also, look here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91478) for some of the loads I have tried with my Garands.

[MtGun44]

Not having enough time or money to make all the mistakes on my own, I try hard
to listen to those that have made various "OH %$#@!"'s.

So that I understand this issue - if one were to use IMR4895 at cast power levels,
then the port pressure would be too low to operate the action? So, the slow powders that
are verboten at full power can produce the desired velocity and enough port pressure
at low power loads, yet be gentle on the action?

Trying to learn from those that have done it.

Bill

[sqlbullet]

I wouldn't stoke my garand with a 200 grain cast bullet and a full power load of 4831. I am sure I would still have port pressure issues.

But, at the velocities I want to push a 200 gr cast bullet (1800-2000 fps) 4831 still provides pressure at the port to run the action.

Varget provided me good port pressure with a 32 grain load, but RE-15 did not until I got up to 36 grains.

I would expect 4895 to function the action well at around 30-34 grains.

[madsenshooter]

Not having enough time or money to make all the mistakes on my own, I try hard
to listen to those that have made various "OH %$#@!"'s.

So that I understand this issue - if one were to use IMR4895 at cast power levels,
then the port pressure would be too low to operate the action? So, the slow powders that
are verboten at full power can produce the desired velocity and enough port pressure
at low power loads, yet be gentle on the action?

Trying to learn from those that have done it.

Bill

You about got it Bill, though you can get 4895 to cycle the action with some cast loads, depending on the individual rifle. That chart of Parashooters has come in handy for me trying to work up loads with the 311284 for a Garand and bolt action, and I'd prefer to come up with something that works in both.

[Larry Gibson]

4895 usually works fine with 180 - 220 gr cast bullets in M1s, especially if the dacron filler is used. Takes 28 - 32 gr depending on bullet weight. Velocities are usually up in the 1850 - 2000 fps range for reliable functioning. With 200 - 220 gr cast bullets, 311299/314299 in particular, it was my powder of choice for the M1 when my supply of old 4831 ran short.

Larry Gibson

[cabezaverde]

Larry - What alloy are you using?

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think why guys are having so much success with the slower powders and cast is because they are loading to lower velocities and therefore lower overall pressure. This results in the residual level of pressure when the bullet passes the gas port (a.k.a. "Port Pressure") is still about the same as using a faster powder (like 4895) at higher overall pressures for max loads with condom bullets. At least, that's the way it seems to work in my head, not having tried it myself.

[zomby woof]

My M1 functions fine with 33.5 grains H4895 311299 and dacron. However, the accuracy was poor. When I switched to 41.5 IMR4831 311299 and dacron the accuracy was very good. This is now my informal match load.

As a side not, it seems what ever I've tried with the H4895 I've had poor results. I bought a small quantity a while back and have tried it in 223, 03A3 and my M1 with jacketed bullets. I was always disappointed with my results. I used match bullets too. I'll stick with Varget.

[Ole]

Has anyone here put together a good load for a Garand with the RCBS 165 SIL bullet?

[smokemjoe]

Try 17 grs. 4759
20 grs. 5744
12 grs. 2400
20 grs. 4895
When you get that bump die from me for your swiss rifle, You can bump heavy wt. bullets like 311284, and shoot them in your Garand. I took a extra gas plug and removed the piston, run action by hand and increased accuritize.

[mustanggt]

I was under the impression that dacron wasn't needed as has been said in many places including a call I placed to Lyman about using it in 45/70 loads. I don't use any in loads for my 03A3 and have had no issues. Is this an exception because of it being used in an autoloader?

[MakeMineA10mm]

That's a great question and theory mustanggt. I believe you and Lyman are correct. It's my understanding that with bulky powders (extruded and low-density flake) dacron is not needed unless going well below 50% loading density. Ball powders should be kept above 73% load density, and depending on how fine-grained the ball powder is, dacron may or may not be a good idea. Now, this is all in relation to reliable ignition.

I'm betting the guys who use it are actually working on getting the most consistent ignition for accuracy's sake. But I'll let them address that as it's never good to put words in others' mouths for them.

[mustanggt]

10mm, I have been loading for 45/70 and 30-06 and have not used any filler ever. There isn't a whole lot of cartridges with more room in them in regards to reduced loads than a 45/70. I've never had a problem with the powder not doing it's job and showing good results albiet some better than others. I've gotten very good results with 314299 with 3031 and 2400. I've decided they are my go to powders. I saw a thread elsewhere on this site about wives tales maybe this is one too???

[MakeMineA10mm]

Maybe. I think there are applications here and there for it, but their use may get over-recommended, too.

Like you, I've never used a filler, and I've never had ignition reliability problems. (All my rounds have always gone "bang" when the hammer dropped.)

However, i have had some ignition inconsistency problems when shooting light loads of pistol powders in the 30-06. In that case, I knew the potential for the problem ahead of time and planned on compensating for this by positioning the powder before each shot (after reloading) by tipping the muzzle up and tapping the belly of the stock. This worked great for the first four groups, until I changed targets, adjusted the chrono, etc. and forgot the tip-up procedure for the next three groups... Guess what? Got verticle stringing. Remembered then, and for the last group went back to lifting and tapping, and got a nice, tight, round group. (Load was 7.5grs W231 & 185gr Saeco #315 boolit in 30-06, fired in two Springfields.)

Some would say (probably correctly) that dacron would have corrected/prevented the problem. Personally, without experience with them and with all the warnings one hears about them raising pressures, I'd rather address the problem differently, but that obviously has its own disadvantages too...

It just so happens the powders you have settled on have good reputations for being easy to ignite and not sensitive to position in the case, so, in a sense, you've addressed these concerns yet another way. This, in turn, has lead you to your conclusion.

I think I'd be more comfortable saying: "fillers have a limited time and place for their use, but that there are other ways of addressing the issues fillers are used for, and that their use/application has probably stretched to areas where their benefits vs. costs is questionable," rather than saying their usefullness is a myth.

[mustanggt]

It might be a different story if I used Unique, Red dot etc. for reduced loads. You make a good point as far as a filler being of limited use rather than uneccesary. I've not seen the need to use those real fast pistol powders. I try to research alot to find a good place to start rather than loading up rounds with 10 powders different powders and trying to reinvent the wheel. I enjoy working up loads but not to that degree. I want to spend a reasonable amount of time finding the best load for my rifle and then shooting it and enjoying it.