First time -- '03 Springfield + Cast Boolits

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, after reading through much of this forum's threads about shooting the mil surps w/ cast, especially the article by Ed Harris stickied at the top of this forum, I took the plunge and did my first cast rifle loading and shooting today.

Short version: It was a GREAT SUCCESS!

Long version:

I had planned on working with my '03A1 Mark I w/ the "sewer pipe" bore, but got to thinking that to minimize variables and confirm that my casting and loading is on-target, I had better try a known good-quality barrel first... So, the 03A1 stayed in the safe and the '03 came along. This '03 is a Springfield Armory in the 1.4 million serial number range with a SA 11-31 barrel, that has quite good, crisp rifling. I've never slugged it, so I have no idea what size bore it has, but it looks very good with a bright light shined down it.

I have a Saeco #315 mould, which is a nominal 175gr TC tapered-body Loverin bullet, that I would say almost looks like schuetzen-meets-modern casting design. It has a reputation as a very accurate boolit, so I bought a used 4-cavity mould off a member here who inherited it, but had no intention of casting for rifles. The boolits out of my range scrap + WW + reclaimed lead shot came out at 180-some grains. I was trying to follow Ed Harris' advice, but I didn't have any LLA, so I decided to lube them with 50/50 NRA formula lube.

So, without knowing bore size or throat diameter, I got to wondering how deep these boolits needed seating which would play into how many grooves to lube and how far below the shoulder-neck joint the boolits would sit... Then, I remembered that the 315 boolit is tapered. So, out came the mics and yes, they are tapered. The front driving band was .304" but the bottom one was .312"-.314". (Hmmm...)

I decided to just use my seating/crimping die (without crimping) where it was set for factory-length ball ammo. And, I decided to leave the boolits unsized and hand-lube them. Got out the rubber gloves and hand-lubed all the lube grooves on 20 boolits. Then, got out 20 resized, primed, R-P 30-06 cases. First thing I notice is that these necks are perfect for jacketed bullets. :shock: So, out comes the Lyman M-die set, and thankfully, yes, there is a .313" (marked .32-cal) expander in the multi-expander/powder-through-die set. So, all the cases get expanded. But wait, do I expand the whole neck or not? (Don't want the boolits to fall through into the powder charge, since these are going to be cat-sneeze loads, no powder to hold the bullets from getting set-back...) So, I decided to expand the front half of the necks, so the cast boolits would start by hand, but get full neck-tension by the rear-half of the neck when run through the seating die.

The seating die pushed the boolits down so that the gas-check shank was hanging in the air inside the case below the shoulder-neck joint, but the full-diameter part (rearmost) of the base of the boolit was still in the back half (tight part) of the neck. BEAUTIFUL! (Grandpa always said it's better to be lucky than good!! [smilie=l: )

Now, after seating, I notice the hand-lubing operation was done with a little over-enthusiasm, so I took a paper towel and wiped off the excess, while still leaving lube in the two grooves that were sticking out of the case. (This wasn't a problem for me today, because these were test rounds going to the range in a plastic bag, and not being loaded from the magazine or carried in web-gear, etc.

Loads? All the cases were primed with WLPs, and I decided to try three loads:

10 rounds were loaded with 7.5grs of W231. This is .5grs above what Ed Harris recommends, but it happens to be what my powder measure typically is adjusted to for my 44 Mag. medium-loads, so I thought I'd try it.

Then, I upped it a grain and a half to 9.0grs for FIVE rounds (just to try).

Then, I read up on the 16.0grs of 2400 load. Only 2400 I have is two old cans of Hercules brand still sealed from the 1970s, that I want to save and keep for testing with Keith loads sometime in the future. So, what do I have that's close? AA#9. Now, this is a very fine-grained ball powder that does not bulk up. And, generally, the recommendation is no ball powder loads that don't occupy at least 75% or so of the case. This one probably occupied like 15% of the case... But, I wanted to try it, just to see, and decided I'd point the muzzle up and tap the belly of the stock a couple times with my support hand before firing each shot.

So, off to the range. (Yes, this was kind-of a rushed thing, but it was 70-degrees today, and I had the day off, so I really wanted to see if I could verify the load(s) and get some shooting in.)

Set up at 25 yards, because I had absolutely no confidence in these loads (mostly because I loaded them, but also because these fast pistol powders aren't supposed to work in these large, shouldered, "high-velocity" rifle rounds by all my training. -- Of course, you guys disagree, and you have some practical authority to back up your claims!).

Well, first five-shot group was with 7.5grs of W231. Got a nice 1" (or so) group. Four out of the five rounds had two pairs touching, and the pairs weren't far from each other. If the 5th round is taken as a "flyer" (which I did NOT call), the group would be under 1/2" easily... Trouble with it is that it was 6" low and 5-6" left of my aim point in the bottom left corner of the target paper... :shock:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=439&pictureid=2946

So, second five-shot group with same load, I aimed at the seal in the top-right corner of the target ("X" w/ "aimpoint" written below it in upper rt corner of photo), and with that Kentucky-windage, I got a nice group in the top of the bullseye! This second group had a little more vertical stringyness to it than the first one, but overall, I'm not too disappointed!! Best part is that it shoots about like a 22 l.r. and the report is like a 38 with wadcutter loads. This is a great load!!
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=439&pictureid=2945

Next up, I tried the 9.0grs of W231. It shot quite a bit higher, only about 2" low, but still 4-5 inches to the left. (I think a sight change in windage is in order...) This group showed a round dispersion, but the group was bigger, perhaps 1-5/8" to 1-3/4". (I haven't gotten the calipers out yet...) This load also cracked a little harder, but recoil was still nothing, compared to ball loads. Overall, I'm liking the flatter trajectory, but not sure about the bigger group. Of course, one group does not justify dismissing the load...
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=439&pictureid=2948

Last, I shot the 16.0grs of AA#9. I was very careful to tip the barrel up past 45-degrees and tap the belly of the stock hard two to three times for each shot with this load. This load had more report and recoil than the others (naturally), but still much nicer-shooting than full-power military ammo. Shot five rounds, and only two hit the target (still at 25 yards)!!! One round in the target showed the classic beginning signs of yaw, where the boolit hole is round, but one edge shows a smudge. The other bullet hole on target had full yaw in progress as the bullet went through at about a 30-degree angle of tumble! Looked below the target and found three more holes through the backer, one of which was full-sideways!
:bigsmyl2:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=439&pictureid=2947
Obviously, this load is not going fast enough to stabilize the boolit. I'll have to go back and re-check what Ed recommends, but I think I'm ditching the ball powder in this application and going to something bulkier that I have on-hand, which would be IMR-4227. Might also try some RL-7.

Overall, I'm really impressed with the 7.5gr load, and I'm up for some more experimenting with a heavier load of that powder. Perhaps 10.0grs would get my elevation pretty close? That's next. Don't know if I'll go much higher than that. I've read of the guys shooting 13.0grs of Red Dot, so I should be able to go that high too, but we'll see where the shooting takes us...

Oh, BTW, with that magazine cut-off, single-loading the Springfield, is a breeze!!! I really like that as these loads don't have to be crimped. It's like the Springfield was designed with the CB shooter in mind!!


:cbpour:

[madsenshooter]

16.0gr of #9 should get your bullet plenty fast enough to stabilize, that'd be 1700-1800fps, so they're tumbling for a reason other than lack of speed. Find any lead in your bore? Wow, Stoeger targets! I was just looking at the 1953 Edition of their catalog, so it caught my eye. Vintage stuff. Your alloy should have been plenty tuff enough for the load, wonder what did cause that? No gas checks? That'd be ok for the light loads, but not for this load level.

[45 2.1]

Go to a Lyman manual and pick the closest boolit weight. Look at Unique near the top of its weight range. Try it.

[excess650]

I shot some of those through my Husqvarna 30-06. My mold drops the bullet with bottom band at .312" so sized and lubed in a .311" die, with lube in bottom 2 grooves only. I loaded AA5744 starting at 22gr and went to 24gr in RP cases with F210 primers. The 24gr load looked best that day going .43" CTC at 58 yards.

Try seating the bullet about halfway down the neck and try to chamber it. My preference is for light resistance, but to let the bolt seat the bullet the last 1/32"-1/16". If this leaves a bullet in the bore during extraction, seat a little deeper until it doesn't.

As velocity increases with powder charge, look for flash leading towards the muzzle as this will indicate that you've run out of lube. Lubing another groove will usually take care of this without risk of lube purge flyers.

I've not tried Red Dot, Unique, or 2400, but may at some point. My '06s generally get heavier loads, and I shoot lower velocity loads from my 30-30. This is a great bullet for the 30-30 as well.

[MakeMineA10mm]

16.0gr of #9 should get your bullet plenty fast enough to stabilize, that'd be 1700-1800fps, so they're tumbling for a reason other than lack of speed. Find any lead in your bore? Wow, Stoeger targets! I was just looking at the 1953 Edition of their catalog, so it caught my eye. Vintage stuff. Your alloy should have been plenty tuff enough for the load, wonder what did cause that? No gas checks? That'd be ok for the light loads, but not for this load level.
Well, I said I was in a hurry, and we all know the old axiom that "haste makes waste"... I didn't gas check those AA#9 loads. I thought I'd read that the 16.0grs of 2400 load was light enough to not require GCs but obviously that's the problem. Only fired five rounds, so probably not much leading, but a good cleaning is going to be in order.

About those targets -- My dad taught me everything I know about CRB. He snagged these targets out of the trash at a range he was at around 50 years ago, because they'd been used for 22 small bore match, and he felt he could re-use them, since he mainly shot 45s, and there'd be no confusion with the bullet holes... You can see in my first group, the fella that shot the 22 match in the 1950s/early-60s, signed the target before he turned it in. My group hit right over his name and score!


Go to a Lyman manual and pick the closest boolit weight. Look at Unique near the top of its weight range. Try it.
Thanks Bob. I'll give that a try too.


I shot some of those through my Husqvarna 30-06. My mold drops the bullet with bottom band at .312" so sized and lubed in a .311" die, with lube in bottom 2 grooves only. I loaded AA5744 starting at 22gr and went to 24gr in RP cases with F210 primers. The 24gr load looked best that day going .43" CTC at 58 yards.

Try seating the bullet about halfway down the neck and try to chamber it. My preference is for light resistance, but to let the bolt seat the bullet the last 1/32"-1/16". If this leaves a bullet in the bore during extraction, seat a little deeper until it doesn't.

As velocity increases with powder charge, look for flash leading towards the muzzle as this will indicate that you've run out of lube. Lubing another groove will usually take care of this without risk of lube purge flyers.

I've not tried Red Dot, Unique, or 2400, but may at some point. My '06s generally get heavier loads, and I shoot lower velocity loads from my 30-30. This is a great bullet for the 30-30 as well.

Great info. One of the things I failed to do (again, being in a hurry) was getting the seating depth just right. I had considered seating a bullet backwards, but since these are tapered, I figured that would give me a false (too short) seating depth, since the bigger band would push in farther than where the tapered bands would be. I'll have to do some experimenting on getting it just right for each rifle.

Now what is "lube purge flyers"??? I've not heard that term before, and you've peaked my interest. I lubed all the grooves, so maybe my groups suffered from too much lube? Could it explain those "flyers" in my two groups that didn't settle into the remaining four shots?

I've got plans on trying this boolit in the 30-30 too, so I'm glad you've had good success with it.

What other boolits do you like in the 30-06? I've been considering the 311467 & 311291.

:lovebooli

[madsenshooter]

At least you got some to hit the paper! With my first few efforts, maybe 1/5 would. My first outing with a muzzleloader the other day was about like your 16gr load including sideways bullets. I thought a minnie ball would be a lot less hassle that sabots, but something wasn't working right.

[Char-Gar]

YOu had really good results or the first time out, or the one hundredth time out for that matter!

[excess650]

Lube purge flyers happen when too much lube is used. It doesn't always happen, and not with all lubes. My general rule of thumb is to use as little lube as necessary.

Favorite '06 bullets? I use the Saeco #301 mostly, but have the 311284, 311644, 311679, and want to try the 311299. These are all "heavy for caliber" bullets. I'm thinking you might have a better chance of success with the 311284 than the others due to its long bearing surface. If your bore and groove diameters are pretty tight, the Saeco and 311644 may work pretty well. If your bore and groove are on the large side, the 314299 might work better.

I also shoot 7.5x55 which my PP cases have the same capacity as RP 30-06 cases to the bottom of the neck. A friend has several '03s and we swap load data between the '06 and 7.5x55 and find they generally work pretty well.

[MakeMineA10mm]

At least you got some to hit the paper! With my first few efforts, maybe 1/5 would. My first outing with a muzzleloader the other day was about like your 16gr load including sideways bullets. I thought a minnie ball would be a lot less hassle that sabots, but something wasn't working right.
Yeah, but I was only shooting at 25 yards... The wind was blowing; I only had 20 test rounds; and I just wanted to see if what I had been reading was valid enough to do a reloading project over the Winter to have a supply of ammo for the Spring. Also, I can't take too much of the credit. The fellows at Springfield Armory back in those days really knew how to make a barrel, rifle, and trigger. That '03 has the sweetest trigger! For a heavy, military-duty trigger, it breaks like glass and is just the right weight for me - heavier than a sporter or target trigger, but ultra smooth and crisp.



YOu had really good results or the first time out, or the one hundredth time out for that matter!
Even for just 25 yards? When I get the sights adjusted and move back to 100 yards in the Spring, we'll see if I'm any good! ;-)


Lube purge flyers happen when too much lube is used. It doesn't always happen, and not with all lubes. My general rule of thumb is to use as little lube as necessary.
I've heard of using as little lube as is necessary, but never heard the "why" before. Can you explain how the "lube purge" causes the flyers? I'd like to understand the mechanism of the problem, even though I'll be following the advice anyway..


Favorite '06 bullets? I use the Saeco #301 mostly, but have the 311284, 311644, 311679, and want to try the 311299. These are all "heavy for caliber" bullets. I'm thinking you might have a better chance of success with the 311284 than the others due to its long bearing surface. If your bore and groove diameters are pretty tight, the Saeco and 311644 may work pretty well. If your bore and groove are on the large side, the 314299 might work better.

I also shoot 7.5x55 which my PP cases have the same capacity as RP 30-06 cases to the bottom of the neck. A friend has several '03s and we swap load data between the '06 and 7.5x55 and find they generally work pretty well.

My dad bought an old Swiss Model 11 back in the 60s, and although it's a strong action, it's right on the border between when the weak actions end and the strong actions begin. Considering it's age, I'm inclined to think of it as a very good candidate for cast boolit cat-sneeze loads also.

I'm not a huge fan of the heavy boolits. I know a lot of guys sing their praises, but I like softer recoil. I've also noticed, other than 311466, almost nobody praises any 150gr or lighter boolits, so that's what got me thinking on the 175gr weight range. It seems to be the medium-weight that's easy to get to work well, and give the least recoil, but still have easy success.

The heaviest boolit that really intrigues me (and INTRIGUES me, it does) is the 311340 Lyman (~188grs). I really like that rebated lube groove ahead of the gas-check shank, and by appearance, it looks like it's just the right length to fit the neck and throat while seating enough of a pointed round-nose shaped boolit out of the case to actually feed well from the magazine. Might also be interesting in something like the Garand... But, I've never seen one, so I can't measure and tell if it really works out as well as I'm imagining... I bet, since it's not much of a bore-riding nose that accuracy would only be mediocre with it, though?

Seems like there's two schools of thought, generally, to getting good success: Loverin with lots of lube grooves and groove-dia. bearing length, or bore-riders (which are generally heavy-for-caliber like you like) that have groove diameter bodies with just a couple lube grooves in the neck/throat, and bore diameter (or .001" smaller) noses that provide guidance through the barrel. Either way, it seems barrel contact over a decent-length is critical to accuracy. It seems from this "lube-purge" problem combined with feeding from a magazine (if I ever get to that) gives a lot of sway toward your argument of a heavy-for-caliber bore-riding-nose design. Fodder for more reading and thinking, but right now, I'm going downstairs to actually measure the bores and throats on these two Springfields.

[excess650]

My 7.5x55s are in K31s, the last of the Swiss straight-pull actions, and the strongest. IIRC, some of the earlier rifles were converted to .308 when imported, so must have been stronger than you might think. Likewise the K31s were in use from 1932-1958, so later, better metallurgy than lots of Springfields! That said, with any OLD rifles, it would be wise to keep pressures to a moderate level.

If you're just shooting out to 50 yards, the catsneeze loads are just fine. I've used my rifles on the silhouette range and beyond, so worked on higher velocity loads that remained accurate to 500m and beyond. The 29gr AA5744/200gr load in the '06 has pretty stout recoil, but the 29-30gr H322/200gr is noticeably softer. The 175gr Saeco #315 with 22gr AA5744 is even softer recoiling, but not potent enough to reliably knock down 47# steel rams at 500m.

Your Springfield(s) likely have longish, tapered throats by design or through wear. I'm of the opinion that you'll need a bullet large enough in diameter to fill that throat, and long enough to be supported by the case neck(for feeding from the magazine) and minimize jump to the rifling. I prefer to have my bullets at least kiss the lands when chambered. The Loverin designs may be your best bet here, but the Lee c309-150f might be worth looking into. Likewise, the 170gr Lee or Lyman 311041 designs are short for their weight. Pointy, spitzer looking bullets can work, but it will be easier to achieve consistent accuracy with a well supported design. If your throats are on the fat side, try the Ranch Dog 311-165.

Feeding from the magazine can present its own problems. My K31s like the 311041, but won't feed 'em from the magazine(too short). My Turk 8mm likes the 8mm Maximum (250gr FN) and a similar 225gr FN, but will only feed singly from the magazine despite an OAL long enough that should work. My 195gr NOE Loverin style bullet feeds fine due to its smaller diameter meplat.

[Bob S]

For my Springfield, I had settled on 16 grains of 2400 with the Ideal 311291 by 1965. It would easily stay in the V-ring of the Able target at 200 yards. Along about '67 or '68, the targets got more challenging (changed to decimal targets); I found that the load would stay in the ten ring of the reduced target for 200 yards. Sometime in the mid-70's I reduced the charge to 15grains, mainly because I was getting too lazy to fiddle with the small poise on the scale to get the extra grain weight setting. I found that my 100 yard groups and scores actually improved a bit, and I was shooting mostly 100 yard reduced range matches then. When I tried the 15 grain load at 200 yards, there was noticable vertical stringing and I would lose a few points to elevation. Looking at targets real close, the holes showed some evidence that the bullets were just starting to tip, so in my rifle, with that mould and charge, I was at the limit of stability. I still shoot 15 grains for very short range (100 yards), but bump it up to 16 grains for 200 yards. For use in "as-issued" matches with the 03A3 and its coarse elevation settings, I regulate the elevation by varying the powder charge, so the groups are centered at 200 yards with the rear sight set at one of the 50-yard increments on the rear sight. I have gone as high as 18 grains without losing accuracy, but I would probably change to ReLoder 7 if I needed more velocity than that. 311291 with 2400 powder is a 200 yard load: for longer range IMHO you need a heavier bullet and slower powder to get sufficient velocity to remain stable. My 300 yard load was/is 311284 (215 grains) and 40-42 grains of WW II surplus 4831.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Guys, thank you so much for both your posts. There's a lot to chew on here, and I'll be re-reading it. Good info on a slightly frustrating evening...

I think the taper on this Saeco 315 actually makes it harder to establish a good seating depth on. There's little full-diameter (.311" +) shank to hold the neck, so as the bullet gets pushed into the neck, and the narrower, tapered middle bands get to the mouth of the case, there's nothing supporting it, and it just falls into the case... Did that game twice...
[smilie=b:

The only other 30-caliber mould I have on-hand is the 311410, which I can use to slug the bore, but not for checking the throats to establish a useable seating depth for the Saeco 315...

So, got to thinking and decided that the 5 culls with rounded-bases on the gas-check shank and about 1.2grs underweight would be sacrificed. I resized the case and just barely bell-mouthed it. (It was actually not belled enough and shaved some lead, but these bullets are going back in the pot anyway.) So, without using the seating die, I just set the gas check shank in the case mouth, pointed the muzzle up and seated the "round". Lo-and-behold, the throat didn't seat the bullet, but the boolit did get jammed into the throat by the too-small case neck, so I had to use a rod to get it out. Decided to seat the bullet in the seating die just so the bottom drive-band (plus the lube groove above it and the gas check shank) was in the neck, and see if it would get driven back any. Back to chamber, and voila - the bullet stayed in the case this time, and there was firm resistence to closing the bolt, but the boolit did not seat deeper.

Silly me, I didn't look carefully at the bullet from the first try (when it got stuck in the throat) but I looked this time, befuddled why it wouldn't seat deeper, and I could see the marks from the four lands of the rifling around the boolit. Interestingly, all the driving bands outside the case were marked. Because of this being a tapered bullet, and because the bullet did not extract from the case this time, I believe that this happened when I seated it the first time (outside the case) and the case shoved the boolit up until it got stuck in the throat, because this time, with good neck tension, the boolit stayed in the case and cycled through the action just fine. Now, this is seated REALLY long - the nose of the bullet had to use that little semi-circular clearance cut in the front receiver ring at the front end of the right receiver rail. It's actually too long, because all the lube grooves are exposed...

At this point, I wish I had a Loverin with full-diameter bands front-to-rear so I could get an accurate read on my throat depth... I guess the other possibility is a chamber cast.

Regardless, I checked this dummy round in both the '03s and it did not stick the boolit in the throat on either rifle. This leaves me with seating the boollit just barely in the neck. I'll probably go as much as 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the neck. This will not put this tapered Saeco 315 bullet touching the lands in the throat, but with how well it shot seated twice as deep earlier this week, I think it will be some kind of improvement...

By the way, I got some exact dates and serials on my Springfields.

The '03 I shot Monday is 1,4XX,XXX and has the 11-31 four-groove barrel. It has the standard-style stock, and is a Springfield Armory, of course.

The '03 that was my "first" bolt-action rifle (dad let me fondle it, clean it, and keep it in my closet in my youth, but I never shot it, till I was in my early 20s), is serial number 1,057,0XX (Springfield Armory) and is a marked "Mark I". I call it an '03A1 because it has the Type C stock with no finger grooves, but the "A1" is not engraved on the receiver. (It's been a long time, but I believe I read none of them were engraved "A1" on the receiver, and it was basically a stock thing?) It's barrel was not taken care of by someone in the past. Probably after it left military service, it was shot with surplus ammo with the corrosive primers and not cleaned. Still, the barrel is marked "S-A" & "9-18", so I'm not changing it. The Mark I designation (done in late WWI) and serial number range means it's almost certainly the original barrel.

After a good cleaning of both barrels, I plan on loading up some more of the 16.5gr AA#9 loads (this time with gas checks - DOH! :oops: ) as well as trying a heavier load of W231. Looking in the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbook, I see Red Dot, Green Dot, PB, and 700-X all getting recommended loads between 10grs and 14grs, so my 7.5grs and 9.0grs were both really light loads. Now that I'm sort-of getting the hang of this, I think I'll try 11.0grs and 12.5grs, in addition to re-shooting the 9.0grs.

Lastly, I have some 4227 and RL-7, so I might try both of those. I especially am curious about the 4227, because that bulks well, and is a good burning rate for what I'm trying to do.

I'm hoping to end up with an ultra-light 25-50yd load and a 100 & 200 yard load. I think the right load of W231 will do the first, and hoping that 4227 will do the second.

That NOE 311407 is on my list of needs too... :bigsmyl2:

[MakeMineA10mm]

Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but I should've dropped a Saeco 315 into the throat, with no case, and while keeping it muzzle down, slowly pushed my cleaning rod in, until I feel it contact the bullet nose, and wrap tape around the rod at the muzzle at that point. Then, with the bullet removed, run the rod to the face of the closed bolt, and wrap another piece of tape. Distance between the front edges of the two wraps of tape is the correct OAL. Why didn't I think of that while I was downstairs and had all the supplies out?? :veryconfu

[MakeMineA10mm]

OH, and I may have found another reason for some of those "flyers" in the targets above.

The other day I cast up 123 of those Saeco 315s. I visually inspected them, but didn't weight-sort them. Again, because I was in a hurry the other day, I just grabbed 20 bullets and loaded them. No weight-sorting then either.

Well, tonight I got a chance to check the remaining 103 bullets.

Found 7 of them to be culls with rounded corners at the bottom of the gas check shank and weights about 1.2-1.6grs light.

Four weighed slightly heavier than the normal groups (186.1grs to 186.4grs). I'll probably load these with the IMR-4227 load and shoot a 4-shot group with them to test it.

Seventy weighed between 186.4 and 186.8grs and have been segregated as my "keepers" for 100 and 200 yard shooting.

Twenty-two were slightly light. Most of these had rounded drive bands, some frosting, or minor lack of fill-out. They weighed 185.6 to 186.2grs. These are set aside for shooting at 25 or 50 yards with my light loads. (Just the right number here to run one group each on all four weights of W231 charges I want to test.)

[excess650]

It sounds like you're on your way to developing some accurate loads. With 4227 I would suggest starting at 20gr and working up in 1gr increments. With Reloader 7 start around 24gr and work up similarly. I don't use filler but elevate the muzzle between shots to position the powder.

With the beeswax-alox lube you'll likely want to lube 3 grooves, but look for the flash leading towards the muzzle as velocity increases. This will be a clue as to whether or not your lube is getting it done, and assuming that you have no leading in the first half of the barrel.

I continue with the 1gr increments and shooting groups and let the groups tell me when I've exceeded the alloy, bullet design, etc. You may see the groups tighten, gradually open, and then suddenly scatter. Check the bore condition in this latter case and make sure you're not leaded. If not leaded, you're likely beyond the velocity sweet spot of that powder. Switching to a slower burning powder may allow you to go faster, but maybe not.

Repeat tests will prove whether or not you have loads capable of consistent accuracy.

IMO, avoid the LLA except for the mousefart loads. Stick with you NRA formula, try Carnuba Red, LBT Blue, etc or other proven to work consistently at higher velocity. Firmer, less tacky lubes will be easier to deal with on that tapered bullet.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks for the help. If I switch from the NRA formula, I'll probably go with Lars' White Label lube. I like the product, like the guy, and like the fact that it's been used to shoot some record groups! He has a formula that sounds perfect for my needs (in all my cast boolit shooting, except black powder), but I can't remember which one it is right off the top of my head. I think it's BAC, but I know it's the one that is a combination of two of his other formulas so that it is right in-between soft and hard, so a lightbulb against the lubri-sizer would provide just enough heat to flow.

Well, with the wife and child out of the house today, I'm hoping to get my OAL measurement taken and make up some rounds. The other thing I've got to do is get my moulds oiled for storage over the winter, unfortunately... Thanks again for all the advice!

[94Doug]

After reading this, I still think you should get some 2400, and work with the basic load of 16 grains, then branch out from there..... If you do want any samples of other designs, contact me, I can cast you up a care package.


Doug

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Doug. I think you're right. I should get even a lb. of 2400 just to have a basis to compare, right? Makes sense to me.

I already know I want the 175gr Loverin, I'm just vascilating between the round nose (467) and the flat nose (407). I also know I want the 311041.

A boolit I'm most interested in that I haven't seen a copy of in my hand is that Lyman 311340. Do you have that one?

[94Doug]

No, that I do not have. Do have the 311041, and RCBS 180FN and 200SIL, Saeco 301, many Lyman/Ideal moulds, and NOE 311407 and 311291. I had good luck with my 03a3 and the 311332. The 311413 also.

Doug

[MakeMineA10mm]

Doug,
I'll send you a PM, but that 332 bullet is very interesting to me as well. I'd love to have some samples of that. How well does the body of the 332 fit the neck of the 30-06? If the bullet is seated so the gas check's bottom is even with the neck/shoulder joint in the case, does the front drive band match up with the mouth of the case?

I found another member here who has a 340 mould, and he'll send me some samples next time he gets a chance to cast. I may have to get a custom mould cut, either copying the 340 or combining the features of the 340 and 332.
Once I get samples of each in my hand and can look at them next to a 30-06 case, I'll know a lot more which direction I want to go.

[Bob S]

The joys of 2400:

First five rounds out of a cold clean bore, after putting the scope on and rough bore-sighting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Springfield%2003s/Lee312185152400.jpg

Next five rounds after sight adjustment:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Springfield%2003s/Lee312185152400centered.jpg

N.B. Not from rest, 100 yards prone.

I have been using the 312185 Lee as essentially interchangeable with the Ideal 311291. My later (Lyman) copy of the 311291 is much fatter than my original, and sometimes requires deep seating, even in WW II barrels. The Lee has been a perfect fit in several rifles.

I don't always use Dacron with this load, it depends on how lazy I am at the time. In this case, it appears to have paid off.

This from a bone-stock Remington M1903 at 200 yards, prone. No Dacron, 311291. You can see the vertical stringing and some evidence of slight tipping. Might be worth trying the Dacron with this, to see if it will minimize the vertical stringing. I am of the opinion, though, that 15 grains is probably a 100 yard load, and 16-18 will be more reliable for 200 yards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Springfield%2003s/3277735Old311291.jpg

I should add, that these cartridges were not loaded specifically for this rifle; they were "generic" loads to fit most of my M1903 or 03A3's, and probably loaded prior to 1980. The rifle was right out of the CMP box, with just some cleaning.

If you like pointy bullets, I will second the suggestion for 311332. In newer copies the bore rider is .301+ and as long as it fits your bore, will perform very well.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

What's a 311322 look like, no pics on castpics? I see 311332, which is a pointy bullet. If that's where your interests lie, there's a group buy running for the NOE 311365.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks for that info Bob. I've read Ed Harris' article and he claims in it that 2400 is not position sensitive, but then he also says that 16.0grs is THE load and that "they" (whoever those other people are) have done a lot of trying up and down from 16.0grs without success... Makes me wonder if 1.0gr extra powder and no dacron would shoot better? Of course, you have the Dist. Marksman Badge, so I'm not even in the same league as someone who could clean your barrel! (I've thought about working on that many times, especially with a pistol, but it's a BIG time and energy committment, and I just got bifocals, so I'm not sure it'll ever happen now.)

madsenshooter - the bullet we're talking about IS on castpics. Perhaps I typed the wrong number in an earlier post. It's 311332. The bullet I'm most interested in is the 311340, which is a 187-188gr bullet with a half-pointy/half-bore-rider nose, a debris-scraper groove (like a lube groove in-between the front drive band and the nose), a gas check base with a rebated lube groove immediately above the gas check, and a couple lube grooves on the body.

The boolit mould that Doug has that he's generously offered to send a few of is the 311332, which is a slightly lighter and slightly shorter design than the 340. Nose is nearly identical to the 340, and it does not have the rebated lube groove just above the gas check, and it only has one lube groove in the body. I'm interested in it, because I want to see how much of the neck it fills up without seating the gas check down below the neck. My GUESS (PURE GUESS at this point - I have no samples of either bullet) is that the 332 is meant for the 308-length neck, while the 340 is meant for a 30-06-length neck. Another member here has generously offered to send me a few 340 boolits for comparison.

One of the several features I like about the 332 and 340 boolits is that their pointy noses still have a full-bore-riding section behind them. It's not as ideal as a nearly-full-length bore-riding nose like so many of these designs, but it will almost certainly feed better from a magazine. I'm not sure how important this is, as one of the reasons I picked the '03 Springfield to start off on this adventure is that handy magazine cut-off so I could single-load, and this is how I've been shooting so far. Of course, with that Mauser-style extractor, it would be nice to load from the magazine... I made up a dummy round today, while checking the throats in my Springfields, and because it was a bullet that was going back in the lead pot, I tried cycling it through the magazine. Lo-and-behold that Saeco 315 feeds pretty nice through the '03 magazine. Out of three tries, one time it did slightly hang-up and when I put some extra force behind the bolt handle, I did wind up with a little divit on the meplat/ogive junction.

By the way, that brings up what I did today with my two '03s. Quite interesting, actually... I used the cleaning-rod method to determine a proper seating depth/OAL for my Saeco 315 boolit loads.

Now, my 1918 rifle, the '03 Mark I (serial 1,057,0XX), with the "sewer-pipe barrel" was checked. Now, maybe it's because my eyes aren't as good as they were when I was 18 looking down the bore, or maybe it's because I've become less jaundiced about what a "perfect" bore looks like, but it doesn't look as bad as I remembered... (I think my eyes are getting bad [smilie=l: ) Ran the rod test and found that my proper loaded cartridge OAL was 3.265". This is with the bullet just touching the leade, not pushed in to make rifling marks.

My 1931 rifle, the '03 (serial 1,4XX,XXX), which I shot the other day and posted the targets of, gave me an OAL reading of, get this, 3.280". Now, ain't that a kick in the pants?? The newer, non-wartime-production rifle with the better bore either has a more-worn throat, or it was just cut longer/deeper...

So, I made up 20 more test rounds tonight. Ten each with 9.0grs and 11.0grs of W231. This time, I tried to barely touch the mouth of the case to the Lyman M-die, but that didn't give enough clearance for the boolits to seat, so I ran them back through with about half the length of the case neck getting expanded. I then loaded and seated boolits, and tried to seat them all to 3.270". Tried, because with my current die set-up, I can't get consistent and proper neck-sizing and tension. I either need to get the Redding neck-size die with the interchangeable bushings, or I need to get or make a different-style bell-mouth die.

My current bell-mouth set up is the Lyman powder-through-expander die set, which is intended for pistols. I'm using the 32-cal pistol funnel (expander), and it mic's .312", which is perfect for not deforming my boolits. Problem is, being a pistol die set up, I can't adjust it to give me a consistent depth. I've got only 1-1/2 turns of threads of the die body into the top of the press, and I still can't run the press handle down past 1/2-way, or I mega-expand the whole neck, and then some... So, I wind up pushing the case up into the die to a distance that's "about right" by feel. Not very consistent. What do you guys use?

[RU shooter]

If your interested in a spitzer shaped boolit for your 03 give the Lee 312-155 at try They have a tappered nose that fills the throat well. Accuracy has come easy for me in several rifles with the standard 10-14 grs of Unique or 16-18 grs of 2400 with it.

Tim

[madsenshooter]

I just cast my bullets hard enough that I don't have to worry about shaving! I use a burr that cuts a long angle on the inside of the casemouth too. I think I used an M die once, and I have the Lee "Do it all" expander if I ever need it. Only bullet shaving I ever get is when putting Hornady checks on fat gas check stems!

[excess650]

I have several different "M dies" for 30cal that vary in diameter. I also have a long, tapered expander that was made for taking 30-40K out to .375" in one pass, so use whatever seems right depending upon bullet diameter of the day. I bell the case neck enough to allow the GC to sit inside flush, but have the insides of the necks chamfered to prevent shaving.

The Saeco 315 may give you grief if you don't have enough neck tension. IMO, your throats are .015" different, but I would seat all of the bullets longer than either throat and finish the seating by closing the bolt.

That little deformity on the nose from feeding from the magazine is a non-factor.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks guys!


If your interested in a spitzer shaped boolit for your 03 give the Lee 312-155 at try They have a tappered nose that fills the throat well. Accuracy has come easy for me in several rifles with the standard 10-14 grs of Unique or 16-18 grs of 2400 with it.

Tim
Tim, that's good info. First "light" boolit I've seen praised, other than the 311466 Loverin. I'll look into it, but with the throat lengths I'm running into, I'm actually starting to concede why these guys talk about the 200gr+ boolits. They can fill the throats and seat deep enough to fill the neck. I'm looking for something that will do both without the base of the boolit sticking down into the shoulder-area of the case.


I just cast my bullets hard enough that I don't have to worry about shaving! I use a burr that cuts a long angle on the inside of the casemouth too. I think I used an M die once, and I have the Lee "Do it all" expander if I ever need it. Only bullet shaving I ever get is when putting Hornady checks on fat gas check stems!
Those are some pretty hard boolits to be harder than brass! LOL! I've been expanding (no bell-mouthing-I don't run it over the expander far enough to get to the bell-mouth step) slightly (aiming for around 1/2 of the neck or less) and then putting a slight chamfer on the mouth after it's expanded. This works to prevent shaving, and if I don't expand too far down, the boolits have good enough neck tension to not only NOT fall into the case, but even resist set-back when cycling through the magazine. My trouble is I need a deeper die, so I can set the die for the length of the cases and get a consistent expansion.


I have several different "M dies" for 30cal that vary in diameter. I also have a long, tapered expander that was made for taking 30-40K out to .375" in one pass, so use whatever seems right depending upon bullet diameter of the day. I bell the case neck enough to allow the GC to sit inside flush, but have the insides of the necks chamfered to prevent shaving.

The Saeco 315 may give you grief if you don't have enough neck tension. IMO, your throats are .015" different, but I would seat all of the bullets longer than either throat and finish the seating by closing the bolt.

That little deformity on the nose from feeding from the magazine is a non-factor.

I may look into that Lee universal expander die. May be just what I need, but maybe not, if it's meant to also work with pistols... Maybe the same problem I already have.

I guess for that neck tension, the size die I already have is good, and I just need to figure out the Expander part. I'm getting great neck tension. Of course, I'm also loading/shooting the boolits unsized, so they're running .312" or so. Hard not to get good neck tension when they're that fat. Luckily, they slide into the chamber on both rifles, so no fit issues for chambering with that large of a diameter of boolit.

I loaded up 20 more rounds, 10 each with 9.0grs and 11.0grs of W231, to see where they hit elevation-wise and how they group. I seated them all to 3.270-3.275" or so. Some were a little loose, because I had ran the expander down farther. They may slip down to 3.260" or so, but I'm going to continue single-loading, so hopefully they don't get shoved in too far...

I'm concerned this inconsistency may also lead to stringing, but we'll see. If we get a nice day (tomorrow?), I'll try these out.

Girls here tonight, so I may hide in the basement and get some 4227 rounds loaded tonight too. I started on them yesterday, but found the Hornady gas checks would fall off the GC shank... I've got some superglue so they may get glued on, but for a long-term solution, the GC shank in the mould is probably going to get honed out slightly.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Oh, I meant to ask you excess --

How to my OALs with the Saeco 315 compare to the OAL(s) you use with the same boolit in your '03(s)??

.

[madsenshooter]

That Lee 312-155 bullet works very good in about any 30 caliber I've shot it out of. Only thing I don't like is the fact that they seem to make different versions of them, meaning different size noses.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Is that the one that Lee lists as for the 7.62x39 and designed by C.E. Harris?

He's a pretty smart fellar.

[leadman]

My go to load for my 1903A3 and my LF Savage 110 in 30-06 is 19grs. of SR4759, WLR, 311041 about 15 BHN sized .310".
This will shoot 3" to 4" off the bench in the 1903A3 at 200 yards on a good day and much better in the Savage on a good day.
In my rifles 4759 is better than 2400. 2400 works great in my 43 Mauser though, so whatever your rifle likes is what to use.
I use a little kit I bought from Midway to determine seating depth that uses a cleaning rod. Works the same way as OP used his cleaning rod but includes several pieces of plastic that screw into the cleaning rod and have flat tips. Flat tip is only important with a spitzer so it doesn't enter the end of the cleaning rod and throw off the readings. Also has plastic pieces that go on the clening rod with thumbscrews to mark the rod.
Using this kit has really cut down on the number of trial loads to find the most accurate.
If you want to try some 311041 boolits PM me.

[RU shooter]

Is that the one that Lee lists as for the 7.62x39 and designed by C.E. Harris?

He's a pretty smart fellar. Yep thats the one. Mine drops right at .312 and .308 at the base of the nose portion.

[cast367]

MakeMine

For 2 years ago I start with AA #9. RCBS 180grs and 200 grs LEE with Hornady gascheck. I use 22 and 20 grs . Its works well.It gives a small group at 100 meters

[Char-Gar]

MakeMine.. I would not have been so laudatory had I known those were 25 yard groups. I didn't know anybody shot center fire rifles at 25 yards. I never have.

From a decent 03A3 or 03, I would expect at least 2 MOA with good cast bullets. I am talking ten shot groups. That translates to 2" at 100, 1" at 50 and 1//2" at 25. If you are not there, keep working. 2400 is an easy powder to work with and you should find joy with a proper cast bullet between 14 and 18 grains of powder. Likewise for 4227 and 4759. There are probably other powders, but the three I mentioned are the ones with which I have deep personal experience.

Don't jack rabbit around with powders and bullets, trying this and that. Stick with onebullet of proven design and one powder of known characteristics. Work with these until you have found success and then if you want to expand your choices, do so, but only change one component t of your accuracy load at a time. Linear is the way to accuracy and satisfaction, non-linear is the way to frustration.

[madsenshooter]

Beware lest the path of least resistance draw your feet astray from the galena gilded straight way! The end of the non-linear is a return to the mediocrity of everyone's bullet. Follow the silver brick road, follow the silver brick road, follow, follow......

[MakeMineA10mm]

Yep thats the one. Mine drops right at .312 and .308 at the base of the nose portion.
Thanks RU. I'll keep this boolit in mind. If I go lighter, I'll try this one even before the Ly 311466.


MakeMine

For 2 years ago I start with AA #9. RCBS 180grs and 200 grs LEE with Hornady gascheck. I use 22 and 20 grs . Its works well.It gives a small group at 100 meters
Is this in the 30-06? I'll have to give that a try. I knew 16.0grs was on the low end. AA#9 has always impressed me as about the same as, or slower than 2400 (but always faster than W296), so I knew 16.0grs may be too light. 20.0grs might be about right. That's definitely going on the list of things to try.


MakeMine.. I would not have been so laudatory had I known those were 25 yard groups. I didn't know anybody shot center fire rifles at 25 yards. I never have.

From a decent 03A3 or 03, I would expect at least 2 MOA with good cast bullets. I am talking ten shot groups. That translates to 2" at 100, 1" at 50 and 1//2" at 25. If you are not there, keep working. 2400 is an easy powder to work with and you should find joy with a proper cast bullet between 14 and 18 grains of powder. Likewise for 4227 and 4759. There are probably other powders, but the three I mentioned are the ones with which I have deep personal experience.

Don't jack rabbit around with powders and bullets, trying this and that. Stick with onebullet of proven design and one powder of known characteristics. Work with these until you have found success and then if you want to expand your choices, do so, but only change one component t of your accuracy load at a time. Linear is the way to accuracy and satisfaction, non-linear is the way to frustration.
Chargar - That's what I thought. I mean, I wasn't that impressed. Quite frankly, I thought my efforts would start off looking like the AA#9 loads I shot without GCs (sideways bullets), with ALL my loads, which is why I started off so close! ;) I was pleasantly surprised that my 231 loads hit straight ahead and grouped nicely at that. That's what impressed me with my first effort. I do know (and hear around here at CB) quite a few people who always shoot at these shorter ranges, but I do want to move back to 100 and 200 yards. I wonder if cast boolits have the same issues with "settling down" from gyroscopic stresses at short range, or if these lower-velocity loads are not subject to such problems?

I think you're advice on working with as few variables as possible is very sound. I really want to focus on getting my loading practices right first. Then, I can experiement some more with variables. Right now, I'm sticking with W231 and short range, because it works and is measureable and comparable with results I already have. Once I get the neck-tension/expansion issue straightened out, I'll move up to the medium-speed powders and try working some at 100 yards. I think the groups I got, if the fliers were eliminated, would translate into the groups you're talking about, so a big part of my efforts needs to be figuring those out and eliminating them. Gotta look at the tightness of the rear sight, too much lube, weight and visually-sorting the boolits, and getting the neck-tension issues straight. Those might get me all the way to eliminating the fliers... We'll see.


Beware lest the path of least resistance draw your feet astray from the galena gilded straight way! The end of the non-linear is a return to the mediocrity of everyone's bullet. Follow the silver brick road, follow the silver brick road, follow, follow......

Oh, I'm not giving up. I'm going to be shooting cast at 200 yards and be able to hit a 1/4-scale man-size target. I'll post the targets next Spring at the latest! :smile: These Springfields are going to speak, if not sing! :-)

Have any of you read or tried experimenting with changing to Large Pistol primers for these lighter loads? Read in the Lyman Cast Boolit Manual last night that this can help with accuracy on the pistol powder loads.

[Char-Gar]

231, Bullseye or similar fast pistol powders are not the powders to start with. They are so fast their is very little wiggle room. You can get bullet distortion very quick with those powders. Not your best choice for learning and early success. Why start the hard way, with powders that are not the most suitable? Seems like less than wise move to me. But hey..if you dote on failure, then have at it!

[madsenshooter]

Have any of you read or tried experimenting with changing to Large Pistol primers for these lighter loads? Read in the Lyman Cast Boolit Manual last night that this can help with accuracy on the pistol powder loads.

They don't cut it in my Krags, or my Marlin 336. In the Krag's many of the pistol primers develop a little tear at the firing pin indent. They're thinner than large rifle, so if you go over a certain pressure level with them, they can't stretch all the way back to the boltface with a firing pin sticking in em. In the 336 when I got the pressure near max, they were cratering, though the radius of the edge was still round. Same load with a rifle primer, no cratering. 40 of those pistol primer loads broke the firing pin. For lower pressure loads, might be ok. I use Blue Dot a lot with 168 bullets, its burn rate is near AA #9. But in Blue Dot's case, I've found that switching from standard LR to REM 9 1/2M really reduced the group. Seafire, a fellow who also experiments with reduced Blue Dot loads has found likewise, uses Fed magnums.

PS, getting rid of those old Herter's primers and using some that'd been properly stored helped eliminate fliers more than everything else put together for me! Grapefruit or larger sized groups with fliers became golfball groups.

[RU shooter]

Thanks RU. I'll keep this boolit in mind. If I go lighter, I'll try this one even before the Ly 311466.
Its well worth the 20 bucks for the mould, I also have the 311466 and the 155 outshoots it in every rifle I have tried it in with similar loads and speeds. And Charger is right on about the powder choices ,I too have used W231 and bullseye at 1K fps speeds but Unique and 2400 have always done better.

Tim

[MakeMineA10mm]

231, Bullseye or similar fast pistol powders are not the powders to start with. They are so fast their is very little wiggle room. You can get bullet distortion very quick with those powders. Not your best choice for learning and early success. Why start the hard way, with powders that are not the most suitable? Seems like less than wise move to me. But hey..if you dote on failure, then have at it!
Funny you should put it that way, when the 231 loads seemed to shoot pretty good at shorter ranges with my first effort out of the box... As I said, I was just trying to see if I could hit the target. I had no elevation info, and as it was I barely kept the first group on paper, so I'm glad I started slow & close.

Part of the exercise too was duplicating some of Harris' loads, and this one is doing so for his sm. game/lt. load.


Its well worth the 20 bucks for the mould, I also have the 311466 and the 155 outshoots it in every rifle I have tried it in with similar loads and speeds. And Charger is right on about the powder choices ,I too have used W231 and bullseye at 1K fps speeds but Unique and 2400 have always done better.

Tim
Once these next 20 rds are gone & I see where they hit for elevation, I'll be moving onto 4227, because I already have a can of it. When that's gone, I plan to get some 2400.


Have any of you read or tried experimenting with changing to Large Pistol primers for these lighter loads? Read in the Lyman Cast Boolit Manual last night that this can help with accuracy on the pistol powder loads.

They don't cut it in my Krags, or my Marlin 336. In the Krag's many of the pistol primers develop a little tear at the firing pin indent. They're thinner than large rifle, so if you go over a certain pressure level with them, they can't stretch all the way back to the boltface with a firing pin sticking in em. In the 336 when I got the pressure near max, they were cratering, though the radius of the edge was still round. Same load with a rifle primer, no cratering. 40 of those pistol primer loads broke the firing pin. For lower pressure loads, might be ok. I use Blue Dot a lot with 168 bullets, its burn rate is near AA #9. But in Blue Dot's case, I've found that switching from standard LR to REM 9 1/2M really reduced the group. Seafire, a fellow who also experiments with reduced Blue Dot loads has found likewise, uses Fed magnums.

PS, getting rid of those old Herter's primers and using some that'd been properly stored helped eliminate fliers more than everything else put together for me! Grapefruit or larger sized groups with fliers became golfball groups.
Good info!! Thanks!

[cast367]

Make Mine,
Indeed it is an 30-06 load. 22grs/180 grs RCBS and 20 grs 200 LEE.
Fired with parker hale with Walther-Lothar barrel.

[MakeMineA10mm]

No, that I do not have. Do have the 311041, and RCBS 180FN and 200SIL, Saeco 301, many Lyman/Ideal moulds, and NOE 311407 and 311291. I had good luck with my 03a3 and the 311332. The 311413 also.

Doug

Holy Smokes DOUG!! I admire your notion of a "small sample" care package!!! :mrgreen:


I'm gonna have to take a pic of this and post it to describe it to the others here. Then again, if I do that, they may start bombarding you with requests, and I wouldn't want to see that happen!


THANK YOU!! :drinks:

[94Doug]

No problem.

Doug

[MakeMineA10mm]

Got some samples from that 311340 mould coming as well. I plan on making a (poor) attempt at duplicating the nice photography of some of the other guys around here, like GLL and Ben, to show a line-up of 30-cal bullets.

BTW, Doug, what are those two monstor boolits in the box for? I haven't even had time to put a mic on them to measure them, but they look like they might be for a small canon! :mrgreen:

[94Doug]

They are 735 grainers for .458's. I keep some for conversation pieces. I don't intend to shoot them out of my Lott. Just don't have the nerve. I figure most casters will appreciate those, so I usually give one or two away when I send out boolit samples.

Doug

[MakeMineA10mm]

Update!

Had a warm (45 degrees) but wet day here today, so I took the opportunity to get out to the range to test these loads.

First, I either didn't have much, or didn't have any leading from those 16.0grs of AA#9 loads, because I just swabed the bore with some kroil and a bronze bore brush about 20 strokes, and the barrel was gleaming, and the groups today were excellent.

In the rifle I reported on before, the 9.0gr load of W231 shot a 1.25" group (still at 25 yards), and the 11.0gr load shot a nice 4-shot group of a little under an inch, but the fifth bullet (actually the second shot of the group) was about an inch down and to the right. Might have been me, but not sure.

In my other '03 (the Mark I), with the "sewer pipe" barrel, things didn't start off well. Got a 5" group (still at 25 yards) with the 9.0gr W231 load, but at least the holes looked round and point forward! :mrgreen: tried the 11.0gr load, and things got considerably better. Group shrunk down to 2", but the spread was all verticle. Side to side, the group probably went under 1". This was a lot better than I had hoped for, and it leaves me the impression that it will shoot better with higher velocity loads. (Just now, while sitting typing this, I realized I didn't tip the barrel up to settle the powder for this string of shots... I think I just realized where the verticle stringing came from...)

So, for next time, I'm going to load some test rounds with 21.0grs AA#9 with the same bullet (this time with gaschecks :? ) and test those. Might try some with 13.0grs of W231 also. Once that's done, I should have a favorite "light load" picked out and will load some up for 100 yard testing.

Oh, and I found that setting the peep for just under 500 yards gave me dead center hits at 25 yards with these loads. Also, I checked the sight on the '03 that was shooting waaaay low and left, and found the windage had been cranked over for some reason... Put back at center, the groups were perfectly lined up left to right, and two elevation adjustments got me in the 10-ring on these rimfire pistol targets. Same sight settings were good on the second '03 as well.

I want to thank everyone who has been helping me so much. I feel like I'm really getting somewhere and can't wait for Spring!!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Make Mine,
Indeed it is an 30-06 load. 22grs/180 grs RCBS and 20 grs 200 LEE.
Fired with parker hale with Walther-Lothar barrel.

Thanks for the help from all the way over in Holland!! My boolits weigh out at 186-187gr, so I'm going to split the difference and try 21.0grs AA#9.


My other test loads are going to be:

One last upping of the W231 to the identical load as the Red Dot "THE LOAD" of 13.0grs. 231 is slightly slower than Red Dot, so it may not give the velocity of Red Dot, but this is as far as I will be taking W231. I'm hoping next time will be warmer and I will have a big chunk of the day to set up the chronograph and really wring-out this load. May also take another set of the 11.0gr loads, as they shot very well today.

Also plan on taking the above-mentioned AA#9 load.

Will also be assembling some 4227 loads, starting at 20.0grs as suggested previously.

And, if I have enough boolits on-hand, some RL-7, starting at 24.0grs.

All other variables will be the same. Same boolit, same primers, same cases, etc. Just going up the scale of powders.

Still haven't made it to the store to buy some 2400... That's on the list too.

[Bob S]

Update!

(still at 25 yards)

I strongly suggest that you test at a minimum of 100 yards. You can't learn much about a load at 25 yards, unless it's an absolute disaster; or unless you will never, ever shoot past 25 yards. You can be easily duped into believing that you found a good load by shooting at 25 or even 50 yards, only to find that things fall apart when you shoot at 100, 200 or further. I have a notebook full of "bad examples" like this in my earlier days, ~ 50 years ago.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Bob,
Thank you. Yes, other than the W231 loads, I'll be shooting them at 100 yards, initially. These other loads (AA#9, IMR4227, 2400, & RL-7) are all intended to be 100 & 200 yard loads.

Out of curiosity, I know you've stated above the 16.0gr 2400 load is good, and you've upped it slightly for better results at the longer ranges of 200 yards, but do you have any suggestions or experience with these other powders? I'm mainly curious if you (or anyone) know of a sweet-spot in the suggested range that will be a good 200 yard load? (I'm assuming, just as Harris found 16.0grs as the sweet spot, that because all of our Springfields and Garands are rifled and barreled the same, it should be applicable across the board, shouldn't it??)

[Bob S]

For the record, my 100-yard go-to load for any '03 series rifle since about 1965 is 15 grains of 2400 with Ideal 311291. Why 15 and not 16? Laziness ... I didn't have to fiddle with the small poise on the scale. :-) At 100 yards it was /is a hammer, no need to fuss over it anymore. My very first cast bullet load for the Springfield was 10 gains of Unique, same bullet. It punched the ten-ring out of the 50 ft pistol target that I set up on my make-shift 50 yard range behind the barn. At 100 yards, the vertical stringing was unacceptable.

The 15 grain load really isn't adequate past 100 yards. The following target definitely isn't a bragging target, but it is instructive. It was fired with a newly-purchased Remington '03 Greek return from CMP.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Springfield%2003s/3277735Old311291.jpg

You can see the vertical stinging and if you look close, there is evidence that the bullets are just starting to tip. They are all in the ten-ring, but that's an SR target and the ten-ring is huge. That load is at the outer limit of stability. Sixteen grains improves the situation somewhat.

I have tried up to 19 grains of 2400 in half-grain steps in 03A3's just to get the rifles to zero at 200 yards on the SR target with the rear sight in one of its 50-yard incremental settings, for "as-issued" matches. A slower powder and a heavier bullet is really better for 200 yards and out. My old stand-by was WW II surplus 4831 when I could get it for a buck a ppound. Several folks here are having good results with IMR 4895, and in the limited use I have made of it, it has worked just fine. YMMV ... :wink:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Bob!

I was digging through the Handloader DVD collection for 30-06 (specifically Garand loads), but ran across something VERY interesting. There was an article in the late 80s or early 90s about the 1925 International Match Load, "the most accurate batch of 30-06 ammo ever(!)" That's eye-catching...

So, I read the article, and here's a brief summation and below will be a follow-up question:


In a nutshell, the 1925 International Match load was intended for 300m shooting in international competition. It was loaded for the early M-1903 Natl. Match rifles, and it was the first appearance of the 172-174gr M-1 Ball bullet with 9-degree boattail in a production lot of ammunition. (There'd been experimental lots for testing made before that, and they continued to tweak the design until it was adopted in 1926.) The load was as follows:

Match Cases (miliitary arsenal, I believe Frankford, IIRC)
FA-70 primers (chlorate, but highly regarded for accuracy)
37.6grs of Hi-Vel #2 powder (of a certain lot and batch #, even!)
The 173gr 9-degree boattail bullet
OAL of 3.390"-3.400" (yes, longer than military-grade ammo)

This load gave under 3" groups at 300 meters from the testing done by the arsenal.

The author replicated this load fairly well. He had to substitute some items, naturally, since the originals are not available, or very hard to find. He used the following:

Specially prepared Mil-Surp cases (flashholes & primer pockets uniformed and weight-sorted) as well as Commercial cases which were likewise weight-sorted.

Federal 210M primers

168gr Sierra MatchKings (these bullets have the exact same profile as the old 173gr military M-1/M-72 bullets)

He replaced the Hi-Vel #2 with Brigadier 3032. He correctly noted that IMR-3031 was the powder that replaced Hi-Vel #2 back in the 1930s, but he also noted that it was slightly slower than the original Hi-Vel #2, whereas Brigadier 3032 was quoted to be "a grain or two faster than IMR-3031." Therefore, he surmised Brig. 3032 would be a very similar powder to the Hi-Vel #2. He used the exact same load, and got within 20-30fps, as I recall.

He used an OAL developed by a comparator for the throat in his rifle. The OAL did end up quite close to 3.390". He tested this load in his commercial hunting rifle (Rem. 700) and got around 4" groups at 300 yards, pointing out that his hunting rifle was not a match rifle, so he was overall very pleased...

Now, here's the interesting tidbit: The velocity of this load is 2250fps & that leads me to my question:

Considering the velocity and bullet weight, why could not we try this exact load combination with, say, a 175gr cast boolit?? ;-)

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, finally had a nice day of weather when I was off work during daylight hours, and I made it to the range. I had loaded up 19 rounds each of:

16.0grs Hercules 2400 (circa 1974 or so)
20.0grs IMR-4227
13.0grs W231

Also, had 5 rounds of new-manufacture Alliant 2400 loaded at 16.0grs, in order to compare to the older lot and brand of the same powder.

I have targets to take pics of and more data to add, but overall, I'm pleased, but not happy. I'd still like more accuracy. At this point, though, I'm starting to question whether it's my eyesight. I haven't measured the groups yet, but both the 2400 and 4227 gave around 6" groups at 100 yards. Partially, my targets lacked a distinct aiming point, and partially, my eyes are not interacting well with the M1905 rear sight leaf. I'm probably going to take along my Remington 700 in 30-06 next time, since it has a scope! :roll: I need to do this just to verify whether it's the loads or me...

Anyway, I hope to have a couple pics to give you soon. One will be the 4227 load out of the '31 Springfield and the other will be the 2400 load out of the 1918 Mark I. Both groups are very similar in size. The targets I was using were 1/4-scale man-size/shape targets which are red on a white background. I have some scaled-down 300m Olympic target simulations, and will be using those black and white bullseyes the next time I go out.

All shooting was at 100 yards this time.

The 13.0gr W231 load sucked! It won't be tried again. It's certainly worthless past 25 yards. At 100, I couldn't keep it on the backing paper, and at 50 I was getting only 3 out of five shots on a 10"x10" target paper (none in the bull, naturally)... After those 8 rounds went down the barrel, the other 12 were brought home. I might pull them and save the components; they're so bad!! [smilie=1:

[Bob S]

I'm guessing you have a No. 6 aperture (.060 diameter), as this is by far the most common. For seniors (and even some not-so-seniors), it doesn't let in enough light to get a clear front sight and still allow you to see your target (and make certain that it is YOUR target). If that's the case, try reaming the aperture out to .080 to .100, and focus only on the front sight. The target can be blurry. As long as you can get a clear front sight, you can shoot decent groups and scores. (as told to me by Gary Anderson ~ 30 years ago)

You also need to make certain that your rear sight isn't moving once you set it. For windage, always end a windage change by moving the sight to the right. For example, if you need to come 1/2 point left, go a full point left, and then come back right 1/2. This takes the backlash out of the windage screw. Also check that the aperture slide cannot move once you lock down the slide screw. A lot of post war releases and civilian parts guns are poorly fitted.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bert2368]

I mounted a scope on my '03 to determine if the problem was my vision, my hand loads or the gun. Ugly, awkward even with a strap on cheek pad and it doesn't allow stripper clip loading or bolt removal. It's coming off soon. But it did allow me to see what the gun and ammo can really do. And how bad my eyes are getting...

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-62.jpg

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss31/Bert2368/photo-45.jpg

[Char-Gar]

I went back an reread this threat and had an additional thought about AA9. While AA9 is very close to 2400 for magnum handgun loads it has a pressure curve much different than 2400. I would not consider it to substitute for 2400 in cast bullet rifle applications.

A load of 16/2400 won't result is bullet instability like the 16/AA9 did.