Cast-friendly 9mm semi-auto pistol

[biscot]

Hi,
I'm in the market for a new 9mm pistol, and one criterion is that it will easily shoot cast boolits without leading problems or needing to shoot over-large boolits. Are there any that are known to be cast-friendly?
I'm looking for a full size pistol, possibly a 1911, maybe a CZ or Beretta. I plan to shoot IDPA, but just for fun.
FWIW, I prefer steel guns rather than the newer polymer jobs.
Any suggestions, or is it just a pig in the poke?
I've been struggling to get my Hi Power to shoot cast without leading, and haven't given up yet, but I've been in the market for a second gun, anyway.

Thanks for any advice.

Bill

[ReloaderFred]

I've got several Witnesses that only see lead bullets in 9x19. Very reliable and more accurate than they have a right to be. The Witnesses get some bad raps, but I've got them in lots of calibers and like them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[biscot]

I'm not familiar with the Witness - I'll check it out, thanks.

[armed_partisan]

Have you slugged your bore? You're bullets may be undersized! Blowby=Leading! I worked for a gun company that made their own barrels. I was appalled to find out that the rifling button we used to rifle the barrels was .3585"! I said that's no good! They said that was the industry standard, and that's what they went by. I thought this cannot be, so I slugged ever 9mm barrel I owned, and you know what? FN High Power, Beretta 92G, Kel-Tec PF9, Glock 17L; they're all .3585 or larger. I only have one 9mm gun that's .356", and that's my Sig 232 in .380.

[biscot]

I've slugged the bore and I know it's big. I've been trying .358 boolits and they still lead. I'm going to try .359, but I'm not sure I can load them and get them to chamber, without swaging them down in the case, or bulging the case too much to chamber.
I have a .359 sizing die coming from Lathesmith this week.
I suppose I might need a different lube - I'm using the Magma blue lube in my Star, and I've tried W231 powder and Blue Dot, three different Lee boolits, some water-dropped BHN 20, and some air-cooled BHN 12. Still haven't found the magic combination.

[armed_partisan]

I've had the same problem with tapered crimped cast bullets. You can get them to chamber, but the only way to get them out is to shoot the damn things! I wonder if anyone has come up with a 9mm bullet mold with a gas check....

[BoolitBill]

Armed partisan, check out this link:
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0004482062

[ReloaderFred]

I have a 9mm mold for a gas checked bullet, but I don't remember what brand it is. I don't normally use it, since leading hasn't been a problem in my guns.

Fred

[beagle]

Hang in there with the High Power. I'm sizing .3585 in the two that I have and they both shoot them well with very little leading.

I'm using modified military M9 magazines in mine and with the abundance of 9mm brass, they make a nice walking around gun here in the country with plenty of magazine capacity./beagle

[Combat Diver]

I shoot lead out of my CZ75 and Smith 6904 without issues. Going to keep my G19 lead free however (at least til I get a different barrel).

CD

[biscot]

Beagle, do you have any tricks for loading the over-size boolits for your Hi Powers?
Any particular boolit shape that works well, lube, powder, etc? I'm looking for ideas to try.
Thanks.

Bill

[biscot]

Combat Diver,
The CZ75 is a gun I've been interested in - haven't ever seen one around here.
What size boolits do you shoot with it?
What are the issues with the Glock that you don't shoot cast?
Thanks.

Bill

[bobthenailer]

i have a kara pm9 a witness 9mm , a springfield 1911 in 9mm with a extra kart 38 super barrel and a race gun in 38 super with a nowlin barrel . they will shoot cast bullets fairly accurate after spending some time testing but ive never been able to get the cast to shoot as well as jacketed in the testing ive done , but its ok as cast is just about all i use and i have 4 bullet moulds in the 125 to 145 weight range and ive found 0.357 dia bullets shoots best and med fast burning powders WSF-WAP-HS6- ect work best for accuracy at least in my pistols.
where most other handgun calibers shoots about any reasonable load and is a lot less finickey with cast than the 9mm/38 super

[Combat Diver]

biscot,

I used to buy a lot of Magnus 125 gr LRN in the past and now use a Lee TL356-124-TC mold. I've owned 4ea 75/85 over the last 20+ yrs (all pre B models) and have many rounds down range with them. On the Glock, they use a different type of rifiling thats not so great with lead boolits. Glocks have been known to KaBoom mainly in .40 S&W. I'm just being cautious and will order a Lone Wolf or TK barrel sometime. Looking forward to maybe do some cast/reloading/shooting/hunting over my Christmas leave.

[biscot]

Thanks for the info, Combat Diver.
I hope you have a nice enjoyable Christmas leave back home.

[S.R.Custom]

...I slugged ever 9mm barrel I owned, and you know what? FN High Power, Beretta 92G, Kel-Tec PF9, Glock 17L; they're all .3585 or larger. I only have one 9mm gun that's .356", and that's my Sig 232 in .380.

'Struth. However... I've owned several of the old S&W model 39s over the years, and they all measured .355" across the grooves. And I had a S&W 3913 in here a couple of weeks ago that measured .353" (!!!). Very nice cast shooters all.

[Larry Gibson]

Biscot

I've had a CZ75 for about 15 years now and find it an excellent 9mm both with J bullets and with cast bullets. I've smaller hands and the grip fits me perfectly, especially for the 1st shot DA. I like the safety option for carry also (DA or cocked and locked) I've also used numerous other 9mms over the years and like the CZ the best. Mine is the plain jane military model. The barrel has very good rifling and just eats up every type of cast bullet I put in it. I've shot quite a few different brands of commercial cast and my own 256402s, 358242s, 358477s and 356-120-TC (favorite 9mm bullet:-) ). Doesn't seem to matter if they are sized .356 to .359. Most of the commercial hard cast will give some leading, some more than others, with their hard wax lube. They don't lead near as much if TL'd with LLA or iff I wash the wax lube off and relube with Javelina. With Javelina lube on the commercial or my own cast i get no leading. My standard practice load i the Lee 120 gr TC bullet over 4 gr Bullseye.

I recommend you take a hard look at a CZ75.

Larry Gibson

[Guesser]

I've got a High Power from 1995 and a FEG HP clone. Both use the Browning 13 Rd magazines and handle cast very well.

[biscot]

Larry, thanks, I'll definitely look at the CZ75.
Also, maybe I should try the Javelina lube - I've been using Magma blue lube in my Star, and haven't tried anything else.
Guesser, what bullets are you using?

[cbunt1]

My Beretta eats cast fodder just fine. I do get just a smidge of leading at the throat because of the larger bore, but nothing that doesn't come out with a quick brush and a touch of Ed's Red.

Of course my Glock 17 does fine with cast as well, contrary to what some "experts" tell you...

[MT Gianni]

I like my cz75. It fits my thick wide palms and short fingers. It has never seen jacketed but shoots 356242 & 402's well.

[dualsport]

My Ruger Blackhawk 9mm convertible shoots cast boolits just fine. So does my Tanfoglio TA90(CZ clone). I use at least .359, .360 (as cast) will chamber in both. Use the fattest boolit that will chamber without being too tight. My cb 9mm loads are pretty mild though. Lot of pressure in that little thing.

[Groo]

Groo here
Cast in a 9mm has been an on again off again thing for me..
Now use mostly plated ,,, suggest you try Hornitdy or Speer lead round nose for 38 spec..
If that works you have a starting point.

[Wots]

I receaved a Beretta 92 FS a few weeks ago. Only 400 rounds thru it (store brought 125g rn lead) with very little leading.
Nice shooter.

[Guesser]

Biscut, I'm using an Ohaus 124 gr. truncated round nose that drops .358/122 from WW. It looks like the Lyman 356402 but seems to drop better bullets. I didn't have to play with loads or sizing much at all to have it work for me. I use A#2 powder for the 9MM, I don't know why, juscuz, Igess.

[sgabel1]

My Beretta 92 slugged at .3575 It leaded terrible with normal sizing and would swage down when sized 359 and pushed into 9mm brass. I use a Lyman M die with a 38 special plug. I need to use Federal brass do to the taper of other manufactures inside cases and the bulge the M die causes in those cases. Using Federal brass, the M die and lyman 358242 121 gr sized to 359, the boolits slide right into the streched brass. I do a slight taper crimp and the leading has disappeared. The only draw back with this bullet is how round the tip is it requires a OAL of 1.040". I would not want to try to chamber this round in just any 9mm.

[Artful]

I've used the Lee 105 SWC in FEG HP clone over Red Dot with good success in the past. I currently use plated for shooting in my Ber 92FS and Sig's due cleaning issues with sealed can.

[Piedmont]

If I were buying a cast bullet nine the main thing I would look for is a slow twist barrel. Standard is 1 in 10", but Barsto uses 1/16, and Smiths are rumoured to be slow. Don't know about CZs but a slow twist is a big help with cast.

Part of your problems may be pushing the bullets too hard in the loads you have tried. Start light and work up, checking accuracy all the way.

You never mentioned what your barrel slugged only that it was big. Make sure you slug with pure or nearly pure lead so you don't get springback.

[biscot]

I've tried 3 or 4 slugs - I'm going to slug it again to make sure, but I think it's between .357 and .358. I think I've finally gotten all the copper fouling out. It's had several thousand jacked bullets through it, and there was some rough plating in the grooves just past the throat that I never could get out. Finally got it with Outer's Foul Out III. I'm hoping that roughness was causing the leading, or at least contributing to it, as it was in the same area that I was getting the leading.
I won't be able to shoot it again until later this week, as we've had a blizzard visiting us the past couple of days.
I used fishing-weights to slug the barrel. Is that pure enough lead? That seems to be what people suggest using. I've had a bit of a hard time feeling like I'm getting a good impression of the grooves.
The last loads I tried were 130 gr. boolits sized .358, lubed with Magma blue lube in a star, loaded with 5.6 gr. Blue Dot. I was getting a velocity of 1100 fps. Next time I'll try a lighter load and see if I get leading. I was using Lee 356-120-TC and 358-125-RF, both seated to OAL 1.04". Some were air-cooled, BHN around 10, others water-dropped, BHN around 22, WW lead.
As far as the barrel-maker goes, he indicated that he was speaking from a large amount of experience, both personal and from other shooters. 'nough said, it's a well-respected company and I do think he knew what he was tallking about, but it seems to be a bit of an inexact science, maybe because nobody really knows what happens in that split second inside the barrel?

[bob208]

if you already have a h-p why not look into a new barrel for it? the money saved could go to shooting.

[biscot]

Actually, if I can't get this to work, I will be buying a Bar-sto barrel. Unfortunately, they're about 4-5 months out to get one for a Hi Power.
I'm feeling confident that I will find some combination for this pistol - but another 9mm is in my future anyhoo.

[atr]

Good morning Bill,
I have a S&W Model 3913 and it shoots cast very well,,,,without a hitch !

[fecmech]

biscot--I had an Olympic arms pre-fit barrel for my Hipower and was very happy with it. My BHP would average 2-2.5"@25 yds with a large number of cast recipes from Lee 121 TC to RCBC 147 and Lee 150 2R all at jacketed velocities. I would get very minor streak leading in the lands that was no worse after 100 rds than after 1 round. It seemed that each shot would clean the leading from the previous one and leave a little behind itself. The end result was I never considered the "leading" to be a problem at all. They are currently out of stock at Brownells but it still may be quicker and certainly less expensive than Barsto.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12474/Product/BROWNING_HP_PRE_FIT_BARREL

[biscot]

Thanks for the heads-up, fecmech.
I checked their site and it said they had one in stock, so I ordered it - we'll see if it actually gets shipped!
I'll keep you posted.

[robertbank]

If you like the HI-Power you will love the CZ75 Series of pistols. The CZ 85 Combat doesn't have a FPB so you can get a slightly better trigger with the 85Combat. Changing the hammer to the "Competiton" hammer put out by CZ Custom and CZ USA will make a world of difference to what many regard as the "perfect" pistol.

The Tanfoglios (Witness in the US) are fine copies. I have one and like the grip slightly better than that found on my CZ's.

The CZ's are boringly reliable and extremely accurate you won't be disappointed. Great guns for IDPA incidently. The CZ Shadow has won everything there is to win in IPSC PRoduction and is THE gun in that sport up here. The Shadow is to heavy for IDPA SSP unless you change the grips and mag brake to get to 39oz.

Take Care

Bob

[biscot]

I do like the look of the CZ's - just haven't been able to find one around here. I haven't heard anything but good comments about them.
And yes, I do love the Hi Power - a real pleasure to shoot, and fits my hand perfectly. One gun just doesn't seem like enough. [smilie=l:

[dualsport]

There is an excellent article by beagle in Castpics about cbs in the 9mm HP. I reread his stuff from time to time. He's a gold mine, big time.

[NickSS]

I have several 9mm pistols and shoot cast from all of them. My most used bullet is the Lee 120 gr. TC bullet as I have a six cavity mold for it. I size them 357 and lube with Javelina. I do not get leading in any of them and accuracy is as good as I get with jacketed bullets. I shoot them is a FEG High Power, Taurus PT 99 and PT 111, Glock 17, Baby Desert Eagle, CZ 75B and a Norico clone of a Tokerev. I have had no issues with any of them. My favorit shooter is the CZ 75B followed closely by the PT 99.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have had several 9mms. I currently have a Beretta 92FS and a Norinco 1911. Previously I had a CZ75 (first 9mm) and a Glock 26. The results were not what you'd expect:

CZ75= Good
Norinco 1911=Better
Glock 26= Best!

The 92 FS is a pita and while it will shoot excellent groups off a bench is a difficult gun to get any sort of accuracy with. It looks the ticket, but had to have the barrel re-crowned when I got it (I bought it new) and a trigger job hasn't made it any better. I like the ergonomics, the slide and safety fall under my thumb without difficulty, but this doesn't relate to decent groups.

They all work pretty well, but you did ask.

I forgot to mention, they all worked well with cast as it was pretty much the only type of boolit I ran through them.

[docmagnum357]

gET A cZ. yoU WILL LOVE IT.

[ironhead7544]

Never had any luck with 9mm and lead until I tried a 160 gr 38 Super bullet. Needed a practice load that would shoot into 3 in or so at 25 yards. With the lightest charge of AA#2 that would work the action 100% the 160 grain worked well in every 9mm I tried it in. That included carbines and SMGs. You have to load it to the max length for your chamber and magazines. Also you must use the Lee Factory Crimp die as the bullets can raise a bulge with some cases. I think the longer bearing surface helps the bullet take the rifling.

[robertbank]

I should add I cast my boolits out of WW and size them .357 for all my 9MM guns. No leading in any of them. Accuracy is excellent. The CZ and Tanfoglios (Witness south of the border), are the most accurate of my 9MM guns. I also found they favour 124 gr boolits more so than 147 gr for accuracy.

Take Care

Bob