Anyone know how to make Serpentine Groove Pulleys?

[PatMarlin]

Well I've been all over the net with no luck so I figured I'd come back home and probably find the info.

I need to be able to make my own serpentine grooved drive pulleys and experiment with different sizes. Aluminum would be OK, and I would want to use a standard sheave bushing like an SK or Browning. That way I could swap different diameters easily.

Anyone here at CB ever make one, or know how to?

Actually, I don't even need grooves. Just a flat would be OK as the other end has a grooved pulley. Don't they have a slight taper ID?

Browning steel pulleys are tapped 1/4-20 threads for the bushing bolts.

[crabo]

Go to the junkyard and take some off some car engines and adapt them??

[PatMarlin]

I need like 8 - 10" diameter, bout' 1" thick.

[Pavogrande]

My first try would be a flat or slightly crowned with about 3/16" flanges if running on the groove side. Actually probably the same for an idler running against the flat side.

[geargnasher]

Northern Tool?

Gear

[Bret4207]

Why not make some up out of plywood to find the size you need? When you figure that out you could either make some from plate stock or cast some from aluminum an machine it.

[PatMarlin]

Why not make some up out of plywood to find the size you need? When you figure that out you could either make some from plate stock or cast some from aluminum an machine it.

Plywood's a good idea. I know 7" is one diameter I need. I need to figure out how to machine the center for the hub bushing. Going to look at some Browning's I have here somewhere. I need to get all that stuff in one place ...:roll:

I'm flat tired of running "V-belts" for some things, and they are junk unless you buy a top dollar premium belt. Almost everything I used to buy from Grainger for the past 25 years now is import junk. Their drive belts are junk.

"V-belts" are horribly inefficient compared to serpentine belts.

I was going to buy a broach set and still will some time for making pulleys, but for now I need to use sheave hub bushings.

[RayinNH]

Have you checked McMaster-Carr?

[scb]

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PMTYPE=KEY&SISMNO=18157432&SIPCNO=0002009514&SIZZNO=69243442&SIS0NO=1547719&SISHNO=15160928&SISRC=KO&SISRCH=1&SILEVL=3&SILSEQ=2&SIT4NO=98209984

Problem 4.7" is about as big as they have. I can never remember seeing one as big as your looking for.

Here's another.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=3150&location_id=3878

[Thecyberguy]

to answer your question...all the browning bushings I have seen do have a taper..but that might be because that is what was used... Worked in a saw mill for 25 years..saw lots of pulleys and sprockets...LOL a bearing company etc. would be a good place to look
TCG

[Charlie Sometimes]

I saved an old idler off of my Windstar, and have been thinking the same thing- replacing v-belt sheeves with them, or adapting them to run other equipment. Is there a variety of serpentine belts, or are they all the same groove and width? What is the shortest and longest belt? Any website that fills in the blanks here?

[Dan Cash]

If RPM is not too high, a plywood pulley will serve well. Press the bearing into the approximate center of an oversized plywood plate. Cut plate mostly round with bandsaw and circle cutting jig. Finish diameter on lathe or improvised router jig.

[deltaenterprizes]

Try "The Home Shop Machinist" site, others there have done it using a threading tool. Use a threading tool to see if the angle is the same.
Measure the distance between the high points to figure your spacing.
A lot of exercise equipment made by ICON Fitness(Nordictrac, proform etc) uses belts like that. Elipticals and bikes have large pulleys inside, some are about 10'' in diameter.

[dragonrider]

Making the pulley should not be too difficult, you need to know how many grooves and how far apart they are, how deep and what angle the sides are, I would not run a flat pulley against the groove side, I think that will ruin the belt by compressing the v's. Flat pulleys are used on serpentine systems but run against the flat side of the belt.

[waksupi]

Pat, the old wooden pulleys were made from apple wood. You may want to give that a shot.

[theperfessor]

Pat -

Here is a link to a site about making serpentine pulleys. There are some useful equations at the end. Hope this helps.

http://www.utterpower.com/making.htm

[theperfessor]

Pat -

I quote the following from Machinery's Handbook 26th edition:

"V-Ribbed Belts ANSI/RMA IP-26.—V-ribbed belts are a cross between flat belts and Vbelts.
The belt is basically flat with V-shaped ribs projecting from the bottom, which guide
the belt and provide greater stability than that found in a flat belt. The ribs operate in
grooved sheaves.
V-ribbed belts do not have the wedging action of a V-belt and thus operate at higher tensions.
This design provides excellent performance in high-speed and serpentine applications,
and in drives that utilize small diameter sheaves. The V-ribbed belt comes in five
cross sections: H, J, K, L, and M, specified by effective length, cross section and number of
ribs."

If this is the type of belt you are talking about then check pages 2397 - 2402 for all the dimensional specs and all necessary calculations to size belt and pulleys. I've been through this whole thing several times so if you need more help then just pm me.

Once you get some numbers crunched I don't think it would be hard to machine a pulley.

[Beekeeper]

Pat,
Please excuse the fuzzy memory.
As I remember when my Dad made a couple of them they were flat and he used a thread gauge,The kind for checking how many threads per inch, and simply cut thread grooves the same sizi and depth.
Not a thread but grooves.
The guage gave the grooves per inch and a pair of thread calipers gave the depth.
hope I haven't muddied the water too bad.

Jim

[PatMarlin]

Perfessor those Allmand pulleys are pretty much what I need to build. Also- I will be using auto serpentine belts.

I have 2 of those Lister CS6/1 engines brand new from Utter Power George's buddy in Portland when he was importing and able to get them. The very best of Indian Listers they could import, made to spec, but now the EPA has ended all of that the sob's. I had bought 4 and sold 2 at a profit which paid for the ones I have here. Wish I could have bought a cargo container of them.

I run my CNC and backup solar charging with Delco DC alternators. I haven't had time to hook up the Listers, so I'm running (2) Honda gas engines with V-belts. One for the house/shop, and one dedicated for CNC. I need to get those on serpentine belts for now.

A Lister will run a Delco alt with a serpentine belt at an output of about 40 amps at 300 rpm. Basically run all day on 2 quarts of fuel (or less :mrgreen:), and put out all the extra power I need.

I need to get those going but I've got to much on my plate for now and the gas is costing me.. :roll:

[PatMarlin]

These are Allmands. Very nice indeed. I can't afford them, so I need to make a version of my own.

http://www.patmarlins.com/allmandpulleys.jpg

[theperfessor]

Shouldn't be that hard to make. Probably take a little time to grind a tool to cut the grooves. Could put in some holes to lighten things up a little too.

[deltaenterprizes]

Check out this thread: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=44858

[Bret4207]

Pat, have you tried the Power twist type belts? The interlocking ones? They sure seem to work for me. And if slippage is an issue, consider double belts.

I've never had anything good to say about the serpentine belts. They seem like garbage to me.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Posts #16 & 17 from theperfessor is what I was talking about! WOW, thanks- I saved that link! :smile:

I used to read about those Lister engines- aren't they the same type used on oil & gas well sights to pump the product to tanks or lines? :confused:

[deltaenterprizes]

There is at least one well every half mile or more here and they all have electric motors.

[uscra112]

www.mcmaster.com If they don't have it, you don't need it.

[pls1911]

Think pumping iron... That's right, Barbell weights... the cast iron material is strong and dirt cheap, you can get several diameters and machine the center to accept whatever bushing is needed. In my case SK bushings fit the need.
I have two which were made up for generators using slow speed (650 rpm and 900 rpm) diesel engines with BIG 24 and 30" flywheels which turn these 8 and 9 inch pullys at... I can't rememmber and it's too late for math tonight. One side was finished flat, the grooves were turned, anf the bushing holes machined...probably in reverse order.

With a little research I could see if he's still in business if you'd like, or better yet go by the reslae place for sports equipment, buy your parts (bushing too) and haul 'em all down to the local machine shop.

[yosemite]

lots of luck, I have found a wealth of information from salesmen at Denver Belting , Denver Co, lots of old catalogs with lots of info, better prices than most bearing and drive houses, you might also check Surplus center in Lincoln NE, if it is not listed, that does not mean they do not have it, ask for a tech

[deltaenterprizes]

Welcome aboard yosemite!

[PatMarlin]

Here's one of mine-

http://www.patmarlins.com/listerright.jpg


http://www.patmarlins.com/listerfront.jpg

[bohica2xo]

The little Listeroids are a lot of fun - glad you got some before the "ban".

There is no need for "experimentation" with the pulleys to drive an alternator.

Automotive alternators do not reach peak output until around 6000 shaft rpm. Most will take 12,000 rpm for long periods of time.

What type of delco alternator are you running?

What is the shaft horsepower of the gasoline engine?

What is the battery bank size? Bank Voltage?

I presume there is an inverter in this off-grid arrangement. Do you run the CNC from that?

B.

[PatMarlin]

Whew-

I knew there was a question hanging out there and I finally traced it back to this thread.

bohica2xo... I've been running the old Chev Delco 63-71 alts with no internal regulator. I run a big variable reostat to the field so I can adjust the amperage load.

One of my temporary setups has been with a 16hp honda. I try to take advantage of the torque and run it as low speed as possible, but get at least 55 amps out of the alt. In the warmer weather it creates a heat problem, and the cheap- "lifetime warranty Autozone" alts don't always hold up.

I have yet to put a tach on it and see what it's doing, but I suspect putting more load on the field with the lower RPM is causing the (heat) issue. No problem this time of year unless the rebuild is junk. They are all built in Mexico.

I run an Outback 3500 watt inverter dedicated for CNC out in the shop with a bank of 12- L16's wired in 24v. In the house I have a Trace 4000 watt inverter with another 12/L16- battery bank. I run the house and my manual shop machines on the trace system. I also have 1kw of PV panels for the house system. All true sinewave clean power.

Aside from getting my Listers set up, I need to research more on these alternators, and how I should be setting them up for longevity at higher amps, and the best fuel consumption. Hence the need to be able to make my own pulleys.

If I run these old style Delcos at 45 amps, they will last for years. I bought an HF optical tach and will start taking rpm readings.

[bohica2xo]

Those old 10SI alternators are pretty much all junk anymore.

Delco had not made a new one in decades, and they lose flux with each rebuild. The rebuilders all burn the enamel off of the stators when they rebuild them to make it easy to pull the copper. Heating the stator laminations red hot does the steel no good at all.

The variable resistor on the field is not a good plan, it wastes power - and offers no voltage control either. There are much better ways to do this.

A newer alternator is much more efficient, and made for 24v. I can get more than 5kw out of an AD244 @ 30v charge. In fact we blew the overload on the 7.5 hp three phase motor on the test bench a couple of times.

Go buy the serpentine crankshaft pulley from a V8 Ford product. Buy the biggest one you can find in the junk yard. The ford part centers on a bore in the pulley - the chebby stuff does not.

Grab a tapered bore, cast iron V-belt pulley & bushing that will fit the shaft. Turn the face of the pulley flat & leave a step to mate with the crankshaft pulley. Clamp the ford pulley to the iron pulley, and drill through the ford bolt holes. Bolt it up, and you have a drive pulley. With a tapered bushing.

The crankshaft pulley is sized to drive the alternator to full output @ 1800 engine rpm. No experiment is required. Detroit did the math already. I would use an idler to get as much wrap on the small alternator pulley as I could.

If you want a modern, regulated, high output 24v alternator (that has never been to mexico) - let me know.

B.

[PatMarlin]

Wow-

DO I? I was heading to look for someone with your knowledge B, and should have known it was here at CB all along. That's the way it is with everything... :mrgreen:

This statement is very interesting...

"A newer alternator is much more efficient, and made for 24v. I can get more than 5kw out of an AD244 @ 30v charge. In fact we blew the overload on the 7.5 hp three phase motor on the test bench a couple of times."

I've got a CNC mill setting in my Bay right now with a 3hp, 3-phase motor. I don't need 3 hp as it will be dedicated to my aluminum Rockdocks. All my power is single phase AC 120v, and I've been modifying 3ph machines to run on this system to date. Wasn't quite sure what I'm going to do on the mill, but since I have DC treadmill motors here, I probably will go that route.

I like the small engine alternator setups as it's very easy to repair and maintain, and get back online quickly plus be able to keep a backup ready inexpensively. BUT I'm burning through more fuel than I need and know I can do better.

[bohica2xo]

A 16hp gas engine like that will develop about 8 hp @ 1800 rpm - they were rated @ 3600. 8 hp should be plenty to run a 70a 24v alternator, it would be loaded to about 40%. You probably have a little loss from altitude, and running an engine like that at full torque shortens the life a lot. Tuning the mixture at full alternator load should help with the fuel consumption - again it is probably a little rich at altitude.

B.

[Gently]

two quick Ideas......cast your own aluminum pully using a oilmold and instead of worring about converting try a voltage converter (3 phase to single phase) I think Grizzly and "littlemachineshop.com" carries them.

To cast your own pulley simply get a belt that you want to use cog or ribbed (heh heh he said ribbed!) place it in the oilsand the diameter you want set you steel bearing in the center hollow out around where you want for thickness and put on the top. melt aluminum pour in and let cool. Take pulley out use lathe or files or whatever to clean it up and check round...walla! pulley to your size and specs!

Check out this website...it may help! BackyardMetalcasting.com

[PatMarlin]

Great Idea Gently. Green sand casting is a skill that's been on my list. I helped a friend do it up on WA a few years back. He makes all his own Gold Dredge pumps from scratch that they sell world wide.

I've been saving all of my AL.

Problem with single phase to 3phase converters is they only build them up to 1hp.

[deltaenterprizes]

Problem with single phase to 3phase converters is they only build them up to 1hp.

Rotary Phase converters go way big.

[PatMarlin]

They go big from single phase 220v, but not Single phase 120v. Then you have to get into a 120v -220v transformer, then rotary phase conversion, and it becomes an expensive inefficient monster.

I've researched and been through all of these options.

[PatMarlin]

Actually what I've been doing to date has worked extremely well. I just know I can push the envelope further, and save more money.

Wish I had the time to cast some pulley's but that will be a future project. I need to turn some from AL stock but I have to figure out how to cut the inside taper to accommodate a browning SK type bushing.

Easy for experienced machinists, more learning process for me.

[theperfessor]

Pat, cutting a tapered bore in a lathe isn't all that hard. Here is how I do it. (This presumes you have a pulley with an existing bore that fits your bushing properly.)

1. Chuck up your existing pulley in a four jaw chuck with the bushing in place.

2. Indicate the bore of the bushing to be concentric and straight.

3. Take the bushing out w/o disturbing your set up.

4. Adjust your compound to be close to the desired taper by eye.

5. Use a dial indicator WITH THE INDICATOR POINT ON THE CENTER HEIGHT and check the alignment along one side of the bore.

6. Adjust your compound as necessary until the dial indicator stays at zero throughout its travel.

7. Remove the pulley and chuck up your pulley blank.

8. Drill and bore undersize and then use your compound with hand feed to cut the bore.

9. Try the bushing while the bore is still undersize. I use Dykem to see what rubs and what doesn't and make any necessary adjustments to the compound angle.

10. Finish to size when the taper is right.

If you don't have a pulley with a tapered bore in it you can also do the same thing with the bushing, but I've found that using a pulley is just a little easier.

Pat, you're a smart and talented guy. You won't have any problems if you're patient. Good luck with your project!

[PatMarlin]

Thanks a million for the tip Perfessor. It makes total sense and I have a pulley to do the setup with.

That's perfect! ...:Fire:

Now I've got to pick up some more AL and get a few bushings. We'll be off to the races.

[Zbench]

Pat,

On the flip side, why worry about the bushing? I just hobbed some gears in converting my metal lathe to a variable speed DC motor. Will a simple keyed shaft not work? If that is the case, your pulleys are just simple lathe work. A broach bushing and broach in the size you need isn't that expensive. Just food for thought.

Pete

[PatMarlin]

I could use a key bored ID but the thing is I'm using aluminum 1" plate, and it would be a bit of work trying to figure out a good way to place set screws.

With an SK bushing sheaves are easy to install and switch out, plus it's way stronger. A 7" sheave pulley is a lot of force hanging out there keyed on a small shaft.

Cutting an ID like the perfessor above mentioned will be pretty darn easy, and no extra tools required. I would like to own a broach set some day.

I'll take some pics of my progress. Next I've got to locate some reasonable cost short flat belts.

What control are you using for your DC motor? I just got another KB control off ebay for a permanent magnet Leeson motor I'm installing on my Supermax mill.

[Zbench]

Pat,

I'm a fan of Boston Gear. I like their stuff...industrial quality and built to last. Mine has a built in reversing switch which is perfect for my application. I do a lot of threading, and it's super nice to just dial in a speed that is not too fast and not too slow. I'm sure you can relate.

Pete

[pls1911]

I have two pullys machined from barbell weights.
The flat side was face off, the diameter trued and grooved, and the center hole cut for the SD hub, pretty nice job. While the source is retired, it should not be difficult or expensive to duplicate.

[PatMarlin]

I should just save the money and turn one out of steel, but this first one will be for a small 6.5 Honda and I don't want the weight on it.

I need to rig up a furnace, and pour a sand mold disk with all the ROCKDock™ chips of AL I have. Would be perfect for this but I just don't have the time right now. All I need is a rough round about 1 1/4" x 8" in diameter.

Anyone here at CB do sand casting?

[theperfessor]

Pat, I've helped an artist friend of mine do several investment castings using both bronze and aluminum. I'm going to try and do some this Spring as a class project. Recycled aluminum chips don't cast very well if they are from wrought stock. Casting grade aluminum and brass/bronze have added silicon to reduce the surface tension for good fill out, much like tin does for lead based alloys. Not saying it can't be done, just saying that I personally wouldn't go to all the work required to make a pattern and mold and end up with a poorly filled out, porous casting because I didn't use the right material.

Cartridge brass reportedly doesn't cast well either for the same reason.

If I was going to use recycled materials I'd go to the salvage yard and pick up some scrap castings such as motorcycle cylinders and lawnmower mower engines.

[PatMarlin]

It's 6061 T6.

Seems like all of what I get now has something like silicon in it as it machines like ****. Smears.

I wouldn't care if it was porous. As long as it was sound and strong enough.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What control are you using for your DC motor? I just got another KB control off ebay for a permanent magnet Leeson motor I'm installing on my Supermax mill.

Pat,
from 1985 til 1993 I worked for a Division of Lakeland Engineering called Extron Company, which manufactures DC motor drives...to shorten a very long story, I think I have a box full of DC drives somewhere. If these interest you, I'll start looking for them. (they may be in a shed at a friends place which is now snowed in...with 30+ inches of snow, if they are there, I won't be able to get them til spring.)
Jon

[PatMarlin]

Great Jon-

Would be interested to see if they would work.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Pat,
I will start looking for them.
Attic first...My big house has a big attic.
Next, Garage Loft/attic they could be there too.

I am a scrounger/saver and I have lots of stuff to dig through.
It may take me a while, lastly if I can't find them at my place, I'll have to check
if my buddy is willing to plow out 30" of snow
from his house to the back shed...about 1000 feet.
Jon

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Pat,
I struck out in the house attic and the garage Attic.
I'll have to try to get out to my buddy's farm,
but that'll probably be after the holidays.

I just had a memory flashback, I had brought
that box of drives to a different job I had after the Extron job.
that place closed... If I left them there, they could still
be there, I need to stop by that place for a visit. I have
friends that work in that building.
Jon

[PatMarlin]

No big deal Jon. Not even sure my motor will work with them so not a problem.