Reloading for breaktop revolvers

[Molly]

Hi fellows,

FWIW, firearms development underwent a traumatic development when smokeless gunpowder was introduced. Smokeless could generate far higher pressures than black powder, and many guns that handled black powder were ruined when someone shot them with smokeless ammo. In 1909, Iver Johnson revamped all of their guns to handle smokeless, but the design (breaktop) was still marginal, and ammunition development has continued to provide ever more powerful ammo. As a result, use of modern factory ammunition in these nicely made old guns is NOT recomended. But they should not be relegated to the status of curiosities: with the right loads, they can still be fun and useful tools.

I recently came into a .32 S&W Long Iver Johnson in LNIB condition. I worked up a really nice load for it that is a bit under factory equivalent, and ought to be safe in any of these old breaktops (in good condition) made since about 1909. It's 2.6g of Herco under a 98g cast bullet. This load not only had notably more pep than I expected, it shot dead on the sights at 50 yards, and gave excellent grouping. Shooting from sandbags, I got several 25 yard groups with touching shots. This load used a heavily crimped, plain base SWC cast bullet sized to 0.314" with Alox / beeswax lube, and CCI SP primers. OAL was 1.187". Recoil was quite mild, and primers were very rounded. There was NO unburnt powder, and no leading. CAUTION: This load, though mild, is no toy: I think it would do very nicely for small game.

This information does not constitute a recomendation. It is rather for the information and consideration of those with the skills and experience to understand it correctly and in context. For all others, it is provided for its entertainment value only. It is specificly NOT RECOMMENDED for use in any randomly selected pistol.

Just wanted to pass it along, as I know that there are a lot of people who would enjoy shooting these old timers. If anyone out there has other loads for older guns that they'd like to share, now is the time, and this is the place.

[pmeisel]

Nice to see this thread. I have two old, but new enough for smokeless, 32 S&W revolver of the H&R Premier variety. I have two boxes of factory ammo -- don't know if I will ever shoot enough to pay for a set of dies but I sure am thinking about it....

[1874Sharps]

I shoot an old S&W #3 New Model 44 Russian made around the late 1880s and it is a ton of fun to shoot! This gun, however, should only be shot with black powder I have been told and that is what I have done. Molly is certainly right in what he posts about the breaktop design being somewhat marginal for modern times. I also have a Uberti #3 Schofield that takes smokeless "cowboy" loads with no problem, but I would not push it. A load of 7.7 grains of Unique with a 230 grain RCBS cowboy LRFN shoots quite well. For the 44 Russian a load of 16 grains of FFFG with a Lyman 245 grain LSWC is just the ticket. The old guns did not have to take the pressures of smokeless since it had not yet been invented, or was in its infancy. The accuracy of both the Schofield and the old 44 Russian is quite remarkable.

[Molly]

Nice to see this thread. I have two old, but new enough for smokeless, 32 S&W revolver of the H&R Premier variety. I have two boxes of factory ammo -- don't know if I will ever shoot enough to pay for a set of dies but I sure am thinking about it....

Hi Paul,

Go for the dies! Most stores don't carry and won't even order 32 S&W (short) ammo, and it's getting ungodly expensive. I was recently told by a store clerk that they were asking $45.00 for a single box of what they have left.

That's just plain robber baron profiteering. And the ammo is SO easy to put together. You can even load a piece of buckshot over something like half a grain of Bullseye or Red Dot and have a ball with tin cans in your back yard. Such loads don't even go BANG. They just go POP! But just start and watch the grandkids come running!!

[NoZombies]

Thanks for the load info Molly!

Any info on the velocity, etc?

I've been using a nice light load for the hand ejectors I've got. I put the load together with stuff I had on hand already.

This load is for .32 S&W LONG. I use 1.7 grains of tight-group with a 90 grain SWC. I use an ideal, but the lee bullet should work fine as well. I crimp tightly, and get about 685 fps from a 3.5" barrel and about 760 FPS from a 6" barrel.

I can't speak to the safety of these loads in anyone's guns but my own. This is below the book minimum for the powder and bullet, and there is unburnt powder if I don't crimp tightly. With the tight crimp I have better velocity and cleaner burn.

[Molly]

>Any info on the velocity, etc?

No, just haven't had the time. I'm still recovering from surgery, and winter's coming on fast, so I'm not likely to get the time any time soon. My best GUESS is that my load is churning out something in the low 600 FPS range.

>I use 1.7 grains of tight-group with a 90 grain SWC. I use an ideal, but the lee bullet should work fine as well. I crimp tightly, and get about 685 fps from a 3.5" barrel and about 760 FPS from a 6" barrel.

Ahhh, that sounds about right. I assume you are talking .32 S&W LONG, right?

>With the tight crimp I have better velocity and cleaner burn.

Yes, I find the same thing. It's probably a result of keeping everything together until the pressure gets high enough to overcome the crimp. This lets it burn a bit more of the small powder charge, and that gives higher velocity as well as cutting down on unburnt powder fouling.

[NoZombies]

Molly,

Yup the loads are for the .32 S&W LONG only! I do think that the crimp helps to hold the pressure until it builds. with the crimp, I get good clean burn and decent velocity. Without the crimp the velocity is lower, and the velocity isn't just low, but sporadic. The cases also get more soot built up without the crimp.

I haven't worked up a load for the .32 short as yet. I need to, as my dad's old top break needs to see the light of day more often.

I hope your recovery goes well, and quickly

[armed_partisan]

I ALWAYS wanted a top break, since I was a kid. I couldn't afford a repro No. 3 Russian, so I broke down and bought an H&R premier in .32 S&W in nice shape. I did a bunch of research and found out it was a post Smokeless model, with a slightly stronger frame. I paid about $50 for it including the background check, and then $48 for a box of 50 rounds, just so I could have the brass. When I'd fired all of those, I decided to test a theory. I had heard that .32 ACP would work in .32 caliber revolvers because it's semi-rimmed. I worked for a company that built .32s, so we had nearly every kind of .32 ACP ammo on the market. I tried at least six of each, and the little gun held up fine. Cor-Bon and Fiocchi (always loaded to +P) and Prvi Partizan, you name it. .32 ACP worked so well, I decided to skip reloading for it entirely.

Keep in mind I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS unless you are POSITIVE that you have a SMOKELESS MODEL. If you don't know DON'T DO IT.

I don't shoot the little gun anymore because I broke the trigger return spring by playing with it so much! It's a neat little piece, and just as cute as the dickens!

[NoZombies]

Using .32 acp in a .32 S&W revolver is bad advice, and +P in one is very bad advice.

Every time you pulled that trigger you where proof testing the gun.

You may have gotten away with it, but I can't say that anyone else should ever think of doing so.

.32 S&W has a max pressure of 12,500 PSI and the .32 ACP has a saami max of 21,000 PSI

I'd have a hard time recommending that to anyone, no matter what their revolver was proofed for.

Edit to add:

I hope you get the gun fixed and enjoy it again!

I just wanted to make sure the warning was posted for anyone who might read the thread here. a lot of the older top breaks are not safe with anything but the original ammo, (and some not even with that!) and I'd hate to hear about someone getting hurt or ruining their neat old gun using the higher pressure .32 ACP loads!

[Molly]

NoZombies, here is some reloading data for the 32 S&W (Short) that I’ve picked up off the internet. No guarantees, as this data isn't picked for breaktops, but at least the starting loads will give you some guidance. Hope this comes through without garbling. Molly

Nuts! The spacing didn't come through (especially column spots that had no data), but I think you can still make some sense of it.

Cal. Blt Sized Powder Pdr Wt Vel BBL Primer OAL Source Comments
32 S&W 71 700-X 2.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 71 700-X 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 71 Bullseye 2.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 71 Bullseye 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 71 HP-38/W-231 2.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 71 HP-38/W-231 2.4 Start load
32 S&W 71 HP-38/W-231 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 71 HP-38/W-231 2.9 MAX load
32 S&W 71 SR-7625 2.4 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 71 SR-7625 2.9 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 71 Unique 2.7 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 71 Unique 3.2 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 80 0.313 700-X 1.8 812 Win SP 0.860 John Goins Not for breaktops.
32 S&W 80 0.313 Bullseye 1.5 579 Win SP 0.860 John Goins Not for breaktops.
32 S&W 80 0.313 Red Dot 1.9 945 Win SP 0.860 John Goins Not for breaktops.
32 S&W 85 700-X 1.2 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 0.314 700-X 1.4 665 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 85 700-X 1.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 85 AP-50-N 1.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 AP-50-N 1.4 650 ADI
32 S&W 85 AP-70-N 1.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 AP-70-N 1.8 730 ADI
32 S&W 85 AS-30-N 1.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 AS-30-N 1.2 600 ADI
32 S&W 85 Bullseye 1.2 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 0.314 Bullseye 1.3 670 M. D. Smith MAX load
32 S&W 85 Bullseye 1.4 Rem 1-1/2
32 S&W 85 HP-38/W-231 1.1 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 85 0.314 HP-38/W-231 1.3 668 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 85 HP-38/W-231 1.4 595 Rem 1-1/2 0.930 Winchester MAX
32 S&W 85 0.314 HP-38/W-231 1.4 640 M. D. Smith MAX
32 S&W 88 0.314 Factory NA 639 M. D. Smith Remington Factory load
32 S&W 88 Factory NA 657 Factory load
32 S&W 90 0.314 HP-38/W-231 1.3 438 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 90 Red Dot 2.0 NA CCI-SP Handloads.com Great for old revolvers.
32 S&W 90 0.314 Unique 1.7 441 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 90 0.314 Unique 2.0 479 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 90 0.314 Unique 2.3 542 M. D. Smith
32 S&W 94 0.313 Green Dot 1.9 950 CCI-SP 0.888 John Goins Not for breaktops.
32 S&W 100 700-X 1.6 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 100 700-X 2.0 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 700-X 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 AA No. 2 2.1 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 100 AA No. 2 2.4 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 Bullseye 1.9 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 100 Bullseye 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 SR-7625 2.0 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 100 SR-7625 2.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 Trap-100 2.9 Rem 1-1/2 Start load
32 S&W 100 Trap-100 3.5 Rem 1-1/2 MAX load
32 S&W 100 Unique 2.5 Start load
32 S&W 100 Unique 3.0 MAX load

[Molly]

I ALWAYS wanted a top break, since I was a kid. ... I broke down and bought an H&R premier in .32 S&W in nice shape. ... I don't shoot the little gun anymore because I broke the trigger return spring by playing with it so much! It's a neat little piece, and just as cute as the dickens!

Hi Partisan,

I used to do some gunsmithing, and loved to pick up a breaktop with a broken trigger spring. Some people will almost pay you to take them. Not quite, but it didn't take much to buy a 'broken' gun either. And you can still get brand new (replacement) trigger springs for them from Brownells! The replacement springs come a little oversize so they can be fitted to a wide range of guns, but it's no big deal to grind them in to fit with a belt sander or grindstone. Give Brownells a call and get it talking again. If you don't have the skills or tools to take it apart, any gunsmith can do it for you, and shouldn't charge much either.

[Bret4207]

Molly, those Sr-7625 loads have worked well for me, although I used the 120 gr 311316. I forget where I started, but it seems like 1.8 grs was the spot. That slower powder seemed matched to the heavier boolit.

[Shooter]

I bought one of the old Lyman tools with the mold for my .32 safety hammerless.
I use 1.5 to 2 Gr. of BE.
When loading buckshot, be careful not toget the velocity too low. I have had the shot rebound from wood target parts.
Not deadly, but to quote: "you'll shoot you eye out".

[Molly]

I bought one of the old Lyman tools with the mold for my .32 safety hammerless. I use 1.5 to 2 Gr. of BE.
When loading buckshot, be careful not to get the velocity too low. I have had the shot rebound from wood target parts.
Not deadly, but to quote: "you'll shoot you eye out".

Are you loading for the 32 S&W, or for the .32 S&W Long? What size buckshot do you use? I've heard of both 0 and 00 being used in the 32's.

Good point on the ultra light loads bouncing back. That can HURT, even if it lands in a non-vital spot. I KNOW! Both times I've shot myself, it was the result of a very low velocity bullet bouncing back from wood. Once was from a .32 Colt short being fired (in my ignorance) from a .32 S&W revolver, and once was from a full power (so called) 25 ACP at a range of about two feet. I'm not impressed by the 25 ACP, but bounce-backs DO happen.

[Molly]

Molly, those Sr-7625 loads have worked well for me, although I used the 120 gr 311316. I forget where I started, but it seems like 1.8 grs was the spot. That slower powder seemed matched to the heavier boolit.

In the 32 S&W or the 32 S&W Long? Did you crimp your loads? How did they perform? Inquiring minds want to know. (BG)

[Bret4207]

Both, I'm sure I crimped and they worked great for the intended purpose- killing cans and dirt clods. In fact, IIRC I loaded way more S&W than long because I didn't have only a few Longs for many years. You know how it is- one mould, pick up brass from here and there, cobbled die sets. Sure worked good for me. Come to think on it, my oldest boy used that load and rifle (Rem#4) on a lot fo porky hunting excursions. It seemed to work quite well.

[Shooter]

Are you loading for the 32 S&W, or for the .32 S&W Long? What size buckshot do you use? I've heard of both 0 and 00 being used in the 32's.

Good point on the ultra light loads bouncing back. That can HURT, even if it lands in a non-vital spot. I KNOW! Both times I've shot myself, it was the result of a very low velocity bullet bouncing back from wood. Once was from a .32 Colt short being fired (in my ignorance) from a .32 S&W revolver, and once was from a full power (so called) 25 ACP at a range of about two feet. I'm not impressed by the 25 ACP, but bounce-backs DO happen.

.32S&W
OO buckshot

[Molly]

Doesn't anyone out there have a 38 S&W breaktop? I used to shoot them with a 000 buckshot pressed down flush with the mouth over 2.0g Bullseye. This left a thin groove around the inside of the case mouth, which I would fill with most any greasy material at hand as bullet lube. Must have worked, as I never had any leading, and I sure shot a bunch of them.

(000 is 36 caliber buckshot (70 grains), and getting hard to find. I originally bought a bag of it for toying with multi-ball loads in .38 Special / 357 Mag, but they were a lot more fun in the .38 S&W breaktops.)

Has anyone besides me noticed that these really light loads tend to shoot low? One of the best things about the .32 Long load in the first post was that it shoots dead on the sights.

[NoZombies]

The first gun I ever reloaded for was a break top S&W in .32 S&W.

It was my dad's gun, and I still have it today, the loads I made back when I was 13 or 14, consisted of a new primer, pushed into place in a vise, a case full of black powder, and a piece of buckshot liberated from shotgun shells in Gauges I didn't own. I had used a bench grinder to grind a nail such that it would let me poke out the spent primers, and didn't even know about re-sizing shells.

I can say that the 20-25 rounds I loaded up all went bang, and I cleaned the gun really well with hot soapy water, same as I did for my 1860 replica, and it still looks okay today.

I don't remember where the ball hit in comparison to the sights, and honestly don't remember if I cared much at the time! it was a hoot shooting the little gun with black powder, but I didn't like the cleanup, and gave up before too long.

I'm glad to say I've progressed a little bit from that point, but I still enjoy it when that little gun goes bang. And now I've got a good excuse to get out there and make some loads up.

Heck I've even got an old Ideal tong tool/ bullet mold in .32 S&W (short) and I should crank that up and make some ammo for my dad's old break top, the old fashioned way.

[Shooter]

Doesn't anyone out there have a 38 S&W breaktop? I used to shoot them with a 000 buckshot pressed down flush with the mouth over 2.0g Bullseye. This left a thin groove around the inside of the case mouth, which I would fill with most any greasy material at hand as bullet lube. Must have worked, as I never had any leading, and I sure shot a bunch of them.

(000 is 36 caliber buckshot (70 grains), and getting hard to find. I originally bought a bag of it for toying with multi-ball loads in .38 Special / 357 Mag, but they were a lot more fun in the breaktops.)

Has anyone besides me noticed that these really light loads tend to shoot low? One of the best things about the .32 Long load in the first post was that it shoots dead on the sights.

I have a safety hammerless and a double action resqued from a gun buy-back.
I haven't shot or loaded for them much. The safety is in new condition. I have lettered it, and it was made in 1899. It is not fired to preserve value.
The double action I shoot some. I have an old Lyman mold and a Lee loader. I have thought about using the Lee mold for C&B revolvers as the .38 S&W uses a .360 boolit

[9.3X62AL]

Molly--

My two current top-break revolvers are both in 38 S&W--an Iver Johnson D/A, and a Webley-Enfield DAO. I haven't tried the 000 buckshot in either one (yet), but that sounds like a great way to keep the I/J running safely at mild pressures.

The top-break is a very efficient design for combat reloading. Combining the Webley with HKS Colt DetSpec speed-loaders and 38/200 loads, the revolver almost feeds itself. In the hunting fields, the top-break is easy to remove 1-2 fired cases from, and leave the unfired rounds in place while refilling the cylinder. The swing-out cylinder on many D/A revos is a little more awkward to do this with.

One revolver I've always wanted to own is the H&R 999 top-break in 32 S&W Long. These were also put up in 22 LR, and one of those would be nice as well. These had 4" and 6" barrels, I believe--and went out-of-print about the time my interests in handguns were getting started.

There is a definite place for mid-caliber cartridges with mild ballistics--on the target ranges or the small game/varmint field venues. This idea got lost in the era of WunderNines and UltraMagnum wrist-wrenchers. I suppose The Factories all thought the 22 LR could serve that need sufficiently, but the texts on this site give the lie to that assumption. There are a lot of folks out there who would like to shoot for fun or hunt with a handgun that doesn't cost much to run but can anchor small game more effectively than can the rimfires--and doesn't require 3 levels of ear protection to fire safely.

[Molly]

... It was my dad's gun, and I still have it today, the loads I made back when I was 13 or 14, consisted of a new primer, pushed into place in a vise, a case full of black powder, and a piece of buckshot liberated from shotgun shells in Gauges I didn't own. I had used a bench grinder to grind a nail such that it would let me poke out the spent primers, and didn't even know about re-sizing shells. ...

That's pretty close to how I started, but I think I have you beat for initial ignorance and luck. I used to swipe blasting powder from coal mines for propellent (and it's NOTHING like BP propellent, being made to be as brisant as possible) and I literally reloaded the fired primers that I used to make loaded ammo with. After decapping the fired case, I would disassemble the primer (take the anvil out) and flatten the firing pin dent with a hammer and a small nail that had the point ground off. Then I'd carefully cut out a little black dot from a roll of toy gun caps and press it into place, followed by the anvil, all of which was inserted back into the case for another trip to the revolver. I don't think I knew that you could buy primers that weren't in loaded ammo. They've weakened cap gun ammo so much that I don't think it can be done today, but if I had to, I believe I could make a few rounds using strike-anywhere match tips to fuel the primer.

Random note: How many of you know that the roll of caps used in cap guns was originally made to actually fire BP rifles. They were called 'caps' because that was exactly what they were: percussion caps!

My bullet in the above was the old standby 000 buckshot, and this witches brew was actually pretty potent. You sure wouldn't want to get hit with it! But like you, I didn't worry over much about hitting anything: I just enjoyed making it go BANG!

[Molly]

Molly--

My two current top-break revolvers are both in 38 S&W--an Iver Johnson D/A, and a Webley-Enfield DAO. I haven't tried the 000 buckshot in either one (yet), but that sounds like a great way to keep the I/J running safely at mild pressures. ...

One revolver I've always wanted to own is the H&R 999 top-break in 32 S&W Long. These were also put up in 22 LR, and one of those would be nice as well. These had 4" and 6" barrels, I believe--and went out-of-print about the time my interests in handguns were getting started. ...

You sound like a man after my own heart! I didn't know the 999 was made in .32 caliber. That would be a sweetie!

[NoZombies]

If I can ever get the chance to cast again, I'll use the old ideal tool and cast some boolits up, and load up some .32 S&W for this old gun.

It's the only "heirloom" gun in the family. My mom and dad moved to a less than upscale neighborhood after getting married, and my dad's dad, gave him this little revolver and a box of R-P ammo. I've still got about half of that original box, and I've put about 50 rounds of other commercial ammo through it. Along with the few reloads I'd made as a teenager. As far as I know, the gun has only been fired about 80 times in the last 40 years. Dad had never shot the gun when I finally talked him into it the first time.

I still couldn't tell you how it shoots, besides the fact that it goes bang every time. Now when I hold it, I always remember my Dad, and the very few times that we got to go shooting together. I need to shoot it more.

http://nozombies.com/dads-smith.jpg

[Geraldo]

I've got my grandfather's old Iver Johnson .38 S&W. It's old enough that it is a black powder gun, but he undoubtedly fired factory smokeless cartridges in it because I have the last partial box he had (NOT THAT I RECOMMEND THAT). I'll get around to making up some black powder loads for it eventually.

For those with Iver Johnson revolvers, this may help you determine what you have and what it was made to shoot:

http://www.american-firearms.com/american-firearms/z-html/company-I/Iver%20Johnson's%20Arms%20&%20Cycle%20Works/Iver%20Johnson's%20Arms%20&%20Cycle%20Works.html

[ironhead7544]

There are a couple of 32 rounds that are new: the 32 H&R Magnum and the 327 Federal Magnum. The H&R never caught on, I hope the 327 does better.
I wish someone would make a mini-revolver in 32 ACP like they make in the 22 rimfires. Would make a nice BUG. A top break would be even better.

[Molly]

... For those with Iver Johnson revolvers, this may help you determine what you have and what it was made to shoot:

http://www.american-firearms.com/american-firearms/z-html/company-I/Iver%20Johnson's%20Arms%20&%20Cycle%20Works/Iver%20Johnson's%20Arms%20&%20Cycle%20Works.html

WOW! What a resource to learn about these older guns. For you who have them, this site also gives data on H&R's and other oldies, not just the Iver Johnsons. It'll tell you if your gun was designed for BP or smokeless, when it was made, and lots more. Hit the 'HOME' button from the IJ page, then dig in and enjoy!

[Molly]

There are a couple of 32 rounds that are new: the 32 H&R Magnum and the 327 Federal Magnum. The H&R never caught on, I hope the 327 does better. I wish someone would make a mini-revolver in 32 ACP like they make in the 22 rimfires. Would make a nice BUG. A top break would be even better.

Well, I'm very happy with MY 32 H&R: Not only does it shoot like a house afire (it's scoped) with its 'real' ammo, it's every bit as good with .32 Longs, so I can use it to test fire oddball stuff like a 165g bullet over 3.2g 4227 in a .32 Long case. (I have just put ONE of these together to get an idea how the pressures will run!) I'm not worried about hurting it, while it COULD hurt one of my less sturdy revolvers. So I use it for screening before I take a load to one of my other pistols.

[Molly]

If I can ever get the chance to cast again, I'll use the old ideal tool and cast some boolits up, and load up some .32 S&W for this old gun.

... I still couldn't tell you how it shoots, besides the fact that it goes bang every time. Now when I hold it, I always remember my Dad, and the very few times that we got to go shooting together. I need to shoot it more.
http://nozombies.com/dads-smith.jpg

That's a beauty, NoZombies. Glad you have good memories of it and your dad. Let us know when it's talking again.

[pmeisel]

NoZombies, I have a revolver like that passed to me by my M-I-L that was my wife's dads. It sat in a closet for decades. Now my wife and I take it out and put a couple cylinders through it each year in memory.

I have more effective self-defense in the house, but I would use that one if it were the first at hand, or if (like sometimes happens in Mississippi) the weather and my attire prevented concealing anything larger.

[scrapcan]

cool thread. I too am enamored with 32 handguns.

I also would like to have a 32 or 38S&W safety hammerless.

I shot two 25 lb bags of 00 buck out of a ruger single six bisley and then foolishly traded it. that is one I wish I had back. U used a decapper and recapper from a lee loader, a 22lr casing modifed to hold my powder charge, dipped the charge, put in case, then seated the ball with a plastic mallet. Wiped on some grease, and had loads of fun chasing cans.

But my current S&W HE is also fun.

Shot a Colt Police Positive enough to weaken and then crack the forcing cone. First barrel was bulged when i got it, then another member sent me the barrel that lost the forcing cone many rounds later. I think the old gun will get to take a respite while I try to wear out a different one.

I would like to find an old charter in 32 S&W Long. I have an early 38 undercover that sees lots of duty as a CCW, a 32 in the same frame woudl just be plain fun.

[Molly]

... used a decapper and recapper from a lee loader, a 22lr casing modifed to hold my powder charge, dipped the charge, put in case, then seated the ball with a plastic mallet. Wiped on some grease, and had loads of fun chasing cans. ...

That was pretty much my technique too, except that I didn't use anything like the Lee primer seater. You can do the same thing by placing the primer (open side up) on a hard surface, and pounding the case down over it with a short length of steel rod - I used a broken drill bit. Worked fine. Believe it or not, you will NOT set primers off like this. They are designed to fire ONLY when the explosive pellet is pinched between the anvil and the primer cup. This usually happens when the primer cup gets dented by the firing pin. But the prier itself is purposely made to NOT fire when the primer is seated flush with the base of the round. And pounding the case down over it on a flat surface simply can't seat the primer any deeper than dead flush with the base.

[NoZombies]

Molly, I'm not sure I read it right, but If you've got your .32 rifle now, I'd love to hear how these same loads do in the companion gun.

I'll post my data as well, whenever I have the opportunity to test, but that may be a while, with my current lack of access to a suitable place to shoot.

I think for me, I plan to develop loads that are safe and accurate in my .32 hand ejectors, and then develop loads for my dad's old break-top, and then hope that they'll both do okay in one or the other of the .32 rifles. Probably do some minor tweaking where necessary to find a compromise that will provide acceptable accuracy in both handgun and rifle.

No telling how well all of that will work, but that's the hope. Whenever I find a place I can shoot, that'll make a big difference in my ability to develop loads.

Of course, actually finishing the rifles will be helpful to all of this as well... One is shootable, but needs a lot of work, and I haven't found out yet whether the work I've just done has solved the problem that was causing it to shoot 7" groups at 25 yards. :shock: The other one is still a rimfire. I'm down to 7 rounds of the old canuck ammo for it, so the conversion will occur either whenever I can get a shop set back up, or when I can afford to send it out to John Taylor.

I love reading about all these break top revolvers, the break top was the first gun I ever saw in my life, and it still holds a near and dear place in my heart. I've been keeping an eye out for a nice break top in .32 long, but it's only a pensive eye, as my (near complete lack of) funds would probably preclude such a purchase at the moment anyways.

[Molly]

Molly, I'm not sure I read it right, but If you've got your .32 rifle now, I'd love to hear how these same loads do in the companion gun. ...

Hi NoZombies,

No, I don't have it yet, but John shipped it to me a couple of days ago, so it should be on hand pretty soon. I'll slap a decent scope on it and hie myself to the range ASAP, and let you know wha' hoppin.

[Molly]

... I don't shoot the little gun anymore because I broke the trigger return spring by playing with it so much! It's a neat little piece, and just as cute as the dickens!

You lucky dog! Guess what: Santa's going to come a little early for you this year. I was straightening up the mess I call my workshop, and found a box with 10 or 20 trigger springs in it. Send me a PM with your address, and I'll send you one for your pistol, so you can put it back in use.

When you do, give me some guidance. Take the old spring out and measure it, so I can give you as close a match as possible. Maybe you will get even luckier, and I'll find a drop-in for you. But I'll need to know how wide it is at the very least, and hopefully how long the arms of the spring are.

Take care.

[pmeisel]

Molly, I ordered the .32 S&W dies yesterday. Thanks for giving me a nudge.

[Molly]

Molly, I ordered the .32 S&W dies yesterday. Thanks for giving me a nudge.

Aarrighttt!

[NoZombies]

Molly, I might hit you up for another one of those trigger return springs in a few days, I'll be glad to pay for it. I just found one of my old revolvers (7 shot .22 long caliber) that's been in need of some restoration ever since I got it 15 or 20 years ago. If I can get the trigger return spring, and a main spring and grips for it, it should be a lot of fun to shoot.

[Molly]

Molly, I might hit you up for another one of those trigger return springs in a few days, I'll be glad to pay for it. I just found one of my old revolvers (7 shot .22 long caliber) that's been in need of some restoration ever since I got it 15 or 20 years ago. If I can get the trigger return spring, and a main spring and grips for it, it should be a lot of fun to shoot.

Not a problem NoZombies. These are just leftovers from my gunsmithing days, and really of little or no true value. Just send me your address and the spring measurements. My pleasure.

[Buckshot]

..............Not a 32, but a Iver Johnson #3 in 38S&W:

http://www.fototime.com/86C54337F979FDD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CD1F80B43CD4C22/standard.jpg

The revolver is in quite good shape with only a bit of the nickle plate flakeing on the left rear of the barrel. The knuckle is tight as a drum.

http://www.fototime.com/9877DF39C588BA8/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/5F1992A31630875/standard.jpg

The bore is VG-Ex with no pitting, but what I suppose would be considered 'freckleing' in a small section on the left side of the bore. Chambers are like new.

http://www.fototime.com/56C0BA1FC0F2D05/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8DAF2A1F0B9E0C6/standard.jpg

It's really amazing the care and craftsmanship that went into these relatively inexpensive little handguns. In the middle/left photo the qulaity of the polishing is so evident in the compound curves and radius's. None of the screwhead and pin holes were dished in polishing either. Various photo's show the latch, hammer and trigger retain their full case colors, while the triggerguard has at least 80% of it's fireblue remaining. Externally you cannot find a toolmark, period.

http://www.fototime.com/15427C2B47E63FD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/3B773CE97D573A2/standard.jpg

AND IT'LL STILL SHOOT! :-) The above was benched at 25 yards once around the cylinder. The sights however are abysmal with the front being so narrow it disappears, and the rear being so shallow trying to mind your windage is almost impossible[smilie=b: This load is the 'Go To' load for this pistol, consisting of the Lyman 35863, 150gr WC cast of pure lead, Tumble lubed and fired 'as cast' @ .363" over 1.6grs of Red Dot in Starline brass for a butt kicking 510 fps from the 3"bbl!

The above right photo are the various boolits used in the 38 S&W's I have. Starting from the left is the 200gr Lyman 358430 (NOT fired form the IJ, but used in 2 Victory Models), the 150gr Lyman 35863 WC, Lee 100gr GB .360" WC, Lee 146gr GB .363" RNPB original boolit duplication. The same boolit loaded, and next is a factory Colt NP (New Police) or 38S&W differing only in having a FN instead of a RN.

.................Buckshot

[Grapeshot]

Used to have an Enfield #2 in .38/200. This shot the .38 S&W cartridge with a 200 grain Bullet in it. As long as I did not go over 3.5 grains of Herco in W-W cases it shot well with no pressure signs. I even got a batch of .38/200 surplus ammo, Indian Manufacture, with a 178 grain FMJ pointed bullet in them that shot well out of that old Enfield.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a Webley-Enfield DAO revolver, and use the NEI #169A boolit weighing 202 grains. The boolit is longer than the case it gets seated into (.810" vs. .775"), and 3.0 grains of Unique give it 690-710 FPS. These shoot very close to the sights at 25 yards, and stay well inside 4". These same loads also shoot to the sights in a S&W Lend-Lease M&P, and stay well inside 3" at 25 yards/double action.

Unalloyed lead might be a better bullet metal than WW or 92/6/2 in this application, but the loads are for plinking or varmints. Those 202 grain slugs do seem to cartwheel through jackrabbits, and anchor them in no uncertain terms. I'm not sure I'd want to employ the loads in anti-methzombie venues, but any revolver is better than no revolver at such times.

[NoZombies]

I still kick myself occasionally for selling all of my webleys, but I needed the money.

I've got my eye on another .38 break top, and if I can make a trade into it, I might have more to talk about on this thread.

[Mk42gunner]

I have an Iver Johson in .38S&W that is an earlier model of Buckshot's revolver. From following the link earlier in this thread, I have decided that it is a first or second model, (the owl looks down the barrel) which means blackpowder.

I do have a question, what is meant by single or double top latch? From looking at my example, I see a single top latch. Looking at Buckshot's pictures, his looks the same as mine???

I also have a Forehand Arms in .38S&W that is missing the firing pin and retainer. Numrich doesn't have the part, any ideas?

Anybody know if a J-frame speedloader will work with these five shooters?

Robert

[Molly]

Hi Mk42gunner

>I do have a question, what is meant by single or double top latch? From looking at my example, I see a single top latch. Looking at Buckshot's pictures, his looks the same as mine???

My Iver Johnson has two posts on the top of the frame, and the latch rides on a single axle that goes between them. The latch is shaped somewhat like a "T", and the top of the "T" drops over the two posts to lock the barrel assembly to the frame. If you can follow that, it's what _I_ understand to be meant by the term 'double top latch'. But I may be wrong, and will hope someone else pipes up if I am.

>I also have a Forehand Arms in .38S&W that is missing the firing pin and retainer. Numrich doesn't have the part, any ideas?

Those are dirt simple for most any gunsmith to make and install, along with the little spring that withdraws the firing pin after it's done its work. It should only take him 15 or 20 minutes, but with customers dropping in, call it a two hour job that he will get to in a week or two - if you're lucky. (BG) You might find some gun tinker near you that can do it too. It doesn't take a lot more than a drill press and a file, if you're careful and have some remote idea what you're doing.

[Mk42gunner]

Hi Mk42gunner

>I do have a question, what is meant by single or double top latch? From looking at my example, I see a single top latch. Looking at Buckshot's pictures, his looks the same as mine???

My Iver Johnson has two posts on the top of the frame, and the latch rides on a single axle that goes between them. The latch is shaped somewhat like a "T", and the top of the "T" drops over the two posts to lock the barrel assembly to the frame. If you can follow that, it's what _I_ understand to be meant by the term 'double top latch'. But I may be wrong, and will hope someone else pipes up if I am.

That is what mine looks like, too. Maybe it is a second model. Irregardless I don't see any hot loads in its future. The top latch design looks the same on the IJ, Forehand Arms and S&W that I have.

>I also have a Forehand Arms in .38S&W that is missing the firing pin and retainer. Numrich doesn't have the part, any ideas?

Those are dirt simple for most any gunsmith to make and install, along with the little spring that withdraws the firing pin after it's done its work. It should only take him 15 or 20 minutes, but with customers dropping in, call it a two hour job that he will get to in a week or two - if you're lucky. (BG) You might find some gun tinker near you that can do it too. It doesn't take a lot more than a drill press and a file, if you're careful and have some remote idea what you're doing.

Yes it is blatantly obvious what the design is, my only problem is measuring the threads for the retainer, I think I will screw a wooden dowel into the frame to try to get the thread pitch from. Then I will have to get a motor mounted on my little craftsman lathe, and learn how to cut threads. No big hurry on this one.


I think I paid $60.00 for the pair at one of the Big Reno Gunshows when I was stationed in Fallon. I wish someone could make affordable guns with the level of quality these guns show now days.

Robert

[Molly]

I think I paid $60.00 for the pair at one of the Big Reno Gunshows when I was stationed in Fallon. I wish someone could make affordable guns with the level of quality these guns show now days.
Robert

OUCH! That hurts to even think about! It's been many a moon since I got a deal like that!

I loved to play with these old breaktops when I was younger. I'd pick them up for a pittance witha broken trigger or pawl spring, fix it and take it out shooting until I was tired of it. Then I'd put it away in an old shoebox filled with more of the same.

Some of them were REMARKABLY accurate. I once had a tiny breaktop snub nosed pocket pistol in .32 Short that literally outshot some modern match pistols!

Anyhow, when the shoebox got full, I'd take it to a family gathering to empty it. You've seen someone take a box of candy around and ask "Would you like a piece of candy? Here, take two. I'd take the box of pistols around and ask "Would you like a pistol? Take two. Here's a nice one!" Then I'd start fillling the box up again. But BOY! Does it hurt now to think of some of the little jewels I didn't appreciate enough to hang on to!!!

Hurts even more to think of the days when I could do something like that without violating a hundred federal and state laws!! Today, I'd do hard prison time for what was then just family friendliness.

[Mk42gunner]

Molly,

There was a guy that had a table at most of the BRG's (at least from 2000- 2004) that usually had a couple of dozen old break tops priced at $50.00/1 or $35.00/ two or more. I was leaving one day with some extra money and stopped to look, I wouldn't want to violate the #1 rule of gunshows-- never leave with money in your pocket.

I wish I had gotten interested in these earlier, you can have a lot of fun for not a lot of money.

Robert

[NoZombies]

...I wish I had gotten interested in these earlier, you can have a lot of fun for not a lot of money.

You got that right brother.

[Combat Diver]

I owned a Webely Mk IV in .380/200 while in Germany in the late 80s and reloaded for it using French BA powders. Then ATF disapproved my import license then they considered it war surplus and won't let me import it. Did find some more Webleys in Iraq where they still can be found. These I had in 08' and still can't bring anything home.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/P3200176_British_revolvers_rz.JPG
Enfield No2 Mk1 in .380/200 British (.38 S&W) made in 1932
Nickled Webley MkIV in .380/200 British
Webley MkVI in .455 Webley made in 1923

[NoZombies]

It's a shame you'll have to leave those there. I've always liked those things. Too bad you can't just mail 'em back to yourself.

Crying shame that you can go defend our freedoms, and then not even be allowed to exercise some of your own.

[Molly]

Molly,
There was a guy that had a table at most of the BRG's ...
Robert

?? BRG's ?? No comprendo! But I'm glad you enjoyed the thread. Go spend a couple of bucks and join us!

[Mk42gunner]

?? BRG's ?? No comprendo! But I'm glad you enjoyed the thread. Go spend a couple of bucks and join us!

Sorry, Big Reno Gunshow. If you ever get out to northern Nevada, I highly recommend scheduling your visit to coincide with the show.

Robert

[Molly]

Sorry, Big Reno Gunshow. If you ever get out to northern Nevada, I highly recommend scheduling your visit to coincide with the show. Robert

Ah! OK. A visit isn't very likely, but I'll keep it in mind. I'd enjoy that.